A word to the wise on the OGL situation: if you have decided you will NEVER BUY FROM HASBROZARDS AGAIN and are busily whipping everyone you can into a zealous fervor of spite and fury seeking to do as much damage to Wizards as you can? You are not helping.
The community, together, put enough pressure on Wizards to get them to rethink their approach and pull back on some of their most egregious overreach. That is Good. We all did it, or at least we earned ground. The whole idea was to get Wizards to change their behavior or they'd lose their customers. Here's the rub - if you decide you're already a Lost Customer and absolutely nothing Wizards could ever do would woo you back, and you're just here to keep spewing invective aimed at everyone involved?
Wizards has absolutely no reason to listen to you or pay you any heed. You're already a write-off. There's no point in giving you the time of day. Your [REDACTED] is not "pressure", it's just pointless noise. Everybody has a course of action they can take to apply pressure - cancel their subscription. Do that if you wish to do so, by all means. But keep in mind that if you want Wizards to reverse their course and change their actions, you have to be willing to entertain the possibility of continuing to do business with them should they do what you ask. This recent frothing riot over the Jan 13th Statement is beyond ridiculous. Yes, the statement is in Corpospeak. News flash: they're a corporation. They're gonna speak Corpospeak, Corpospeak exists for a reason. We all hate it, but we can't change it.
Be angry. Anger helps! You should be angry! Directed, focused anger won us some major concessions! But spite is worse than useless. Spite will do nothing but poison the entire process and make any further compromise or gaining of ground impossible. All you're doing when you ragepost endless spite in every thread in GD is making the forums a terrible place to be and hurting the community that's trying to band together and make changes happen.
Please. Calm down. Breathe. Have some water. And remember that if you continue to beat the dog over and over again after it's tried and tried to do what you want, eventually the dog will stop caring and bite you.
Public Mod Note
(Sillvva):
This thread has been locked due to the incendiary language used, and discussion having died.
The community, together, put enough pressure on Wizards to get them to rethink their approach and pull back on some of their most egregious overreach. That is Good. We all did it, or at least we earned ground.
Except, possibly for those that saw the initial outcry from the community and did their level best to minimize the concerns (calling it fear-mongering, panicking, etc.)
And remember that if you continue to beat the dog over and over again after it's tried and tried to do what you want, eventually the dog will stop caring and bite you.
I hate this analogy, not just because I hate "people" who abuse dogs but also because WOTC already bit us when they formally announced their intention to revoke OGL 1.0.
With all that in mind. I will however use this as an opportunity to apologize to anyone I may have upset with my earlier posts. I'll make a better attempt at remaining level-headed going forward from here.
I...... was actually about to make a similar statement. Do I fully trust WotC? No, not really. But they are obviously aware that they dun goofed, so the situation isn't hopeless. It all comes down to whether the humans at WotC will be heard over the suits.
I'll admit my own bias here: there is some utility in there being a system that is widely used throughout the tabletop community, as it makes things more accessible for more casual gamers. If someone plays an Eldritch Hunt campaign (set to be released this March) and likes it, they can play a Humblewood campaign without having to learn a whole new ruleset. Two different settings made by different 3PP, same rules.
And if you don't feed the dog, the dog dies. Let this version of WoTC die. Don't feed them. They have already bitten us, so we muzzled the rabid money-grubbing monster! People like you, come in afterward and try to repaint the situation or create some perspective that ultimately diminishes the outcry, you worsen the issue and let people rationalize away the company's bad behavior. You enable the dog to bite you again.
I respectfully disagree with part of your point. They might get my business back if they change their leadership, their tone, and their obvious disrespect for the intelligence of their customers. What I won't do is tell them that some form of half measure gets my subscription or even using 5e again, much less the next iteration. They can fire every single person who thought this move was a good idea or tried to WotC-splain it. That will bring me back.
If the message sent to D&D Shorts is to be believed, Wizards knows they effed up, but blames us for over-reacting and doesn't care that we're mad. They're hoping we will be placated by their apology and forget about all of this in a week or so and push through OGL 1.1/2.0 anyway. Considering the abject level of denial the company previously had over the Magic 30th debacle this tracks. It's not about the community, it's about how to get the community to do what they want because in the end that is their most profitable business strategy. Don't trust them, cancel your subscription because that is the only way to tell them you are not pleased by this. As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
man, i've been attacked more today than ever before. called a bootlicker, compared to a nazi, and now being "put in my place" all for suggesting people treat others kindly.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
I've seen your responses on other posts, you seem fairly calm and logical to me. There was once a time when maturity and level headedness were assets and symbols of general intelligence. Debates aren't fought with insults and slurs, they are fought with facts and rhetoric. I'd apologize for your recent misfortune in "debate" partners, but I had nothing to do with it nor do I have the power to change their attitudes. I just hope the rest of your day goes better.
Then leave. Take your leave, and enjoy your memories as much as you can. It doesn't stop the absolute insanity that's erupted in the last couple of hours from being incredibly counterproductive.
Actually, I won't leave. I purchased products and I will continue to use them as long as they have value. What I won't do is pay for a subscription. That recurring gravy train they want just dried up from this source. But I'm not going anywhere.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
Said every oppressive entity that was facing protests that made the more mild mannered of their community uncomfortable.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
I'm going to assume that the comments about "alts", and "hateposting" are general terms and are not aimed at me. The second part where you use the world "you're" seems to. I don't hate 5e, I'm not done with it, I still don't hate D&D or D&DBeyond and I have a lot of stuff here, a lot of homebrew stuff I've worked hard on. But WotC is a problem, and a reduction in spite is unfortunately what they are waiting for. When the outrage dies down they will push their plans through regardless. Even though this spite is not very productive it is sending a very clear signal by how far it's spreading and reverberating. People should cancel their subscriptions but the outcry should continue it it means otehrs will hear it and cancel theri subscriptions as well.
How far this will devolve is anyone's guess and the vitriol is unhelpful, particularly amongst community members of differing opinions, so I'll agree with you there. But the irony of the statement is that if you don't want to deal with the spite you could yourself leave it behind. Being a part o this forum doesn't man you have to interact with the negative. This is in no way an attack, it's just a matter of fact. Calling for calm during a time of unrest rarely works, it typically just makes people angrier.
Edit: post addressed to GohRok, but will work regardless.
You mistake me. I'm not instructing anyone to do anything. I'm asking, and providing a reason for my ask, that the infinite ragespewing hate volcano be taken down a few notches because it is unnecessary. Unnecessary and actively harmful to the cause.
I am also stating that if someone has decided they're done wioth D&D forever and are never going to play another 5e session, buy another Wotsee book, or otherwise stain themselves with Hasbrozards' perfidy ever again, it doesn't make any sense to me for them to stick around and keep polluting the forums with constant hatespew. If - and I mean that, IF - you are truly Done With 5e? Then by all means, be done. I won't stop you, I won't tell you not to leave. Just...please go, and let whoever's still trying to salvage the situation try and find daylight through the hateposting.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
This is the kind of attitude that causes these kinds of movements to fail. You are right, we are angry, VERY angry. But keeping up pressure and being loud is how you get the ocean to shift. People as a whole (not individually) are pretty stupid and WotC is not wrong to try to bank on us losing interest if they want to push this through. Your statements of just canceling and sitting back is not going to help keep this pressure up. "asking for the reduction of constant pointless spite" is asking us to be done with being mad. If you are happy with creators being taken advantage of, then be happy. But don't go gate-keeping because you like keeping things mellow.
My take on their statement is if they follow through with the changes they say, it's a step forward. It doesn't fix everything, but it's something. I plan to keep my subscription cancelled until I know they are following through. If they don't and still release OGL 1.1 as it was in the leak, then I won't be giving them any more money. I'm not going to say I'm completely turned away from them, but I'm definitely proceeding with caution.
If this whole thing has left a bad taste in your mouth, and you don't want to support Wizards anymore, that's fine. That's totally understandable. It's how I feel, more or less.
Does that mean you need to stop playing D&D, or participating in D&D community spaces like this one? No, of course not. I assume it'll keep you from playing with the new stuff as it releases, so your experience of D&D will gradually drift further away from that of the current customers, but that doesn't bar you from having a place within the community, nor does it put your place at the bottom of some kind of hierarchy. This isn't just a spot for people who buy everything. You can play D&D with just the Basic Rules, and you can come here and talk about it, too. I myself plan to play 5e well after 6e drops.
But Yurei's right, there's really nothing to be gained from simply saying you hate what's happening... After a point. Where she's wrong is in saying we're past that point. The new OGL doesn't exist yet.
6e isn't coming for at least a year. We probably aren't seeing the final decision on the OGL until close to that. I don't think it's possible to stay furious for a whole year. Not about a hobby, anyway. So if you really care, if you want things to change, it might be time to figure out how to stay engaged and effective on that kind of time frame. I don't really have answers there. I've never been an activist. But I bet there are answers.
You can't just stop your boycott when you're given the tiniest scrap. That's not preserving the value of your voting dollar, it's actually the opposite. If you buy back in just because they said "sowwy :3", thinking that you have to be an ongoing customer in order to have the power to threaten to stop buying? That's exactly what they want, sister. They want to give as little ground as possible. Demand more.
My take on there statement is if they follow through with the changes they say, it's a step forward. It doesn't fix everything, but it's something. I plan to keep my subscription cancelled until I know they are following through. If they don't and still release OGL 1.1 as it was in the leak, then I won't be giving them any more money. I'm not going to say I'm completely turned away from them, but I'm definitely proceeding with caution.
They tweaked some stuff and are trying to claim that it was a "Draft" DnD Shorts has a great video on the announcement from this morning.
I won't say forever but they will not see a dime from me until I see a change of upper management in WOTC.
I doubt they have "changed their behavior" and they have shown their stipes with both D&D and MTG. Cynthia Williams and crew are obviously NOT the right people to run 85% of the community's market. They think we will forget and try again, we who play games that last for years and sometimes decades.
And as far as those rabid hyaenas? Let them yell. Let them yell from the mountain tops as a constant reminder to Cynthia and Hasbro as they loose market share and profits.
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A word to the wise on the OGL situation: if you have decided you will NEVER BUY FROM HASBROZARDS AGAIN and are busily whipping everyone you can into a zealous fervor of spite and fury seeking to do as much damage to Wizards as you can? You are not helping.
The community, together, put enough pressure on Wizards to get them to rethink their approach and pull back on some of their most egregious overreach. That is Good. We all did it, or at least we earned ground. The whole idea was to get Wizards to change their behavior or they'd lose their customers. Here's the rub - if you decide you're already a Lost Customer and absolutely nothing Wizards could ever do would woo you back, and you're just here to keep spewing invective aimed at everyone involved?
Wizards has absolutely no reason to listen to you or pay you any heed. You're already a write-off. There's no point in giving you the time of day. Your [REDACTED] is not "pressure", it's just pointless noise. Everybody has a course of action they can take to apply pressure - cancel their subscription. Do that if you wish to do so, by all means. But keep in mind that if you want Wizards to reverse their course and change their actions, you have to be willing to entertain the possibility of continuing to do business with them should they do what you ask. This recent frothing riot over the Jan 13th Statement is beyond ridiculous. Yes, the statement is in Corpospeak. News flash: they're a corporation. They're gonna speak Corpospeak, Corpospeak exists for a reason. We all hate it, but we can't change it.
Be angry. Anger helps! You should be angry! Directed, focused anger won us some major concessions! But spite is worse than useless. Spite will do nothing but poison the entire process and make any further compromise or gaining of ground impossible. All you're doing when you ragepost endless spite in every thread in GD is making the forums a terrible place to be and hurting the community that's trying to band together and make changes happen.
Please. Calm down. Breathe. Have some water. And remember that if you continue to beat the dog over and over again after it's tried and tried to do what you want, eventually the dog will stop caring and bite you.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
Truth
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Except, possibly for those that saw the initial outcry from the community and did their level best to minimize the concerns (calling it fear-mongering, panicking, etc.)
I hate this analogy, not just because I hate "people" who abuse dogs but also because WOTC already bit us when they formally announced their intention to revoke OGL 1.0.
With all that in mind. I will however use this as an opportunity to apologize to anyone I may have upset with my earlier posts. I'll make a better attempt at remaining level-headed going forward from here.
Thanks, Yurei!
Correction: EVERYONE listens to rabid hyenas
Unless you want them to eat you. Then go ahead - ignore the rabid hyenas
I...... was actually about to make a similar statement. Do I fully trust WotC? No, not really. But they are obviously aware that they dun goofed, so the situation isn't hopeless. It all comes down to whether the humans at WotC will be heard over the suits.
I'll admit my own bias here: there is some utility in there being a system that is widely used throughout the tabletop community, as it makes things more accessible for more casual gamers. If someone plays an Eldritch Hunt campaign (set to be released this March) and likes it, they can play a Humblewood campaign without having to learn a whole new ruleset. Two different settings made by different 3PP, same rules.
And if you don't feed the dog, the dog dies. Let this version of WoTC die. Don't feed them. They have already bitten us, so we muzzled the rabid money-grubbing monster! People like you, come in afterward and try to repaint the situation or create some perspective that ultimately diminishes the outcry, you worsen the issue and let people rationalize away the company's bad behavior. You enable the dog to bite you again.
All of life's problems can be solved by either duck tape, deodorant, or fire; and apparently cat-5 cable.
I respectfully disagree with part of your point. They might get my business back if they change their leadership, their tone, and their obvious disrespect for the intelligence of their customers. What I won't do is tell them that some form of half measure gets my subscription or even using 5e again, much less the next iteration. They can fire every single person who thought this move was a good idea or tried to WotC-splain it. That will bring me back.
If the message sent to D&D Shorts is to be believed, Wizards knows they effed up, but blames us for over-reacting and doesn't care that we're mad. They're hoping we will be placated by their apology and forget about all of this in a week or so and push through OGL 1.1/2.0 anyway. Considering the abject level of denial the company previously had over the Magic 30th debacle this tracks. It's not about the community, it's about how to get the community to do what they want because in the end that is their most profitable business strategy. Don't trust them, cancel your subscription because that is the only way to tell them you are not pleased by this. As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
man, i've been attacked more today than ever before. called a bootlicker, compared to a nazi, and now being "put in my place" all for suggesting people treat others kindly.
what a great community!
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
I've seen your responses on other posts, you seem fairly calm and logical to me. There was once a time when maturity and level headedness were assets and symbols of general intelligence. Debates aren't fought with insults and slurs, they are fought with facts and rhetoric. I'd apologize for your recent misfortune in "debate" partners, but I had nothing to do with it nor do I have the power to change their attitudes. I just hope the rest of your day goes better.
Actually, I won't leave. I purchased products and I will continue to use them as long as they have value. What I won't do is pay for a subscription. That recurring gravy train they want just dried up from this source. But I'm not going anywhere.
Said every oppressive entity that was facing protests that made the more mild mannered of their community uncomfortable.
I'm going to assume that the comments about "alts", and "hateposting" are general terms and are not aimed at me. The second part where you use the world "you're" seems to. I don't hate 5e, I'm not done with it, I still don't hate D&D or D&DBeyond and I have a lot of stuff here, a lot of homebrew stuff I've worked hard on. But WotC is a problem, and a reduction in spite is unfortunately what they are waiting for. When the outrage dies down they will push their plans through regardless. Even though this spite is not very productive it is sending a very clear signal by how far it's spreading and reverberating. People should cancel their subscriptions but the outcry should continue it it means otehrs will hear it and cancel theri subscriptions as well.
How far this will devolve is anyone's guess and the vitriol is unhelpful, particularly amongst community members of differing opinions, so I'll agree with you there. But the irony of the statement is that if you don't want to deal with the spite you could yourself leave it behind. Being a part o this forum doesn't man you have to interact with the negative. This is in no way an attack, it's just a matter of fact. Calling for calm during a time of unrest rarely works, it typically just makes people angrier.
Edit: post addressed to GohRok, but will work regardless.
You mistake me. I'm not instructing anyone to do anything. I'm asking, and providing a reason for my ask, that the infinite ragespewing hate volcano be taken down a few notches because it is unnecessary. Unnecessary and actively harmful to the cause.
I am also stating that if someone has decided they're done wioth D&D forever and are never going to play another 5e session, buy another Wotsee book, or otherwise stain themselves with Hasbrozards' perfidy ever again, it doesn't make any sense to me for them to stick around and keep polluting the forums with constant hatespew. If - and I mean that, IF - you are truly Done With 5e? Then by all means, be done. I won't stop you, I won't tell you not to leave. Just...please go, and let whoever's still trying to salvage the situation try and find daylight through the hateposting.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
This is the kind of attitude that causes these kinds of movements to fail. You are right, we are angry, VERY angry. But keeping up pressure and being loud is how you get the ocean to shift. People as a whole (not individually) are pretty stupid and WotC is not wrong to try to bank on us losing interest if they want to push this through. Your statements of just canceling and sitting back is not going to help keep this pressure up. "asking for the reduction of constant pointless spite" is asking us to be done with being mad. If you are happy with creators being taken advantage of, then be happy. But don't go gate-keeping because you like keeping things mellow.
My take on their statement is if they follow through with the changes they say, it's a step forward. It doesn't fix everything, but it's something. I plan to keep my subscription cancelled until I know they are following through. If they don't and still release OGL 1.1 as it was in the leak, then I won't be giving them any more money. I'm not going to say I'm completely turned away from them, but I'm definitely proceeding with caution.
If this whole thing has left a bad taste in your mouth, and you don't want to support Wizards anymore, that's fine. That's totally understandable. It's how I feel, more or less.
Does that mean you need to stop playing D&D, or participating in D&D community spaces like this one? No, of course not. I assume it'll keep you from playing with the new stuff as it releases, so your experience of D&D will gradually drift further away from that of the current customers, but that doesn't bar you from having a place within the community, nor does it put your place at the bottom of some kind of hierarchy. This isn't just a spot for people who buy everything. You can play D&D with just the Basic Rules, and you can come here and talk about it, too. I myself plan to play 5e well after 6e drops.
But Yurei's right, there's really nothing to be gained from simply saying you hate what's happening... After a point. Where she's wrong is in saying we're past that point. The new OGL doesn't exist yet.
6e isn't coming for at least a year. We probably aren't seeing the final decision on the OGL until close to that. I don't think it's possible to stay furious for a whole year. Not about a hobby, anyway. So if you really care, if you want things to change, it might be time to figure out how to stay engaged and effective on that kind of time frame. I don't really have answers there. I've never been an activist. But I bet there are answers.
You can't just stop your boycott when you're given the tiniest scrap. That's not preserving the value of your voting dollar, it's actually the opposite. If you buy back in just because they said "sowwy :3", thinking that you have to be an ongoing customer in order to have the power to threaten to stop buying? That's exactly what they want, sister. They want to give as little ground as possible. Demand more.
They tweaked some stuff and are trying to claim that it was a "Draft" DnD Shorts has a great video on the announcement from this morning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjbBuZafv4c
I won't say forever but they will not see a dime from me until I see a change of upper management in WOTC.
I doubt they have "changed their behavior" and they have shown their stipes with both D&D and MTG. Cynthia Williams and crew are obviously NOT the right people to run 85% of the community's market. They think we will forget and try again, we who play games that last for years and sometimes decades.
And as far as those rabid hyaenas? Let them yell. Let them yell from the mountain tops as a constant reminder to Cynthia and Hasbro as they loose market share and profits.