I always wonder what "community" accounts like that are actually talking about
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're probably right - looking at some graphs the growth was pretty linear and a lot of people attribute it to different things. (like stranger things or Crit Role or whatever)
The big question kind of still stands though - "How many people will stick to D&D if it finds itself being "cancelled" by 3rd Party Publishers and soaical media influencers and a large part of the DM community.
I cancelled my Master-level sub in protest of the sneaky way they were doing things, but there was no impact to me from the changes. (If you weren't publishing, OGL doesn't mean diddly. This actually impacted hardly any players.)
Now they're doing proper consultation, monetization is gone, license-back is gone, core rules will be creative commons... that's a lot of concessions. What little impact 1.1 would have had, 1.2 has none at all.
Now, after those changes, we're seeing the disingenuous actors who were actually just in this to hurl mud at WotC for being too woke, or wanted people to try their pet game, or were publishing their own content and didn't want royalties cutting into the bottom line. I never thought they'd drop revenue sharing completely or put rules into Creative Commons to put creator's minds at rest.
Anyone who wants to make something can just use the Creative Commons stuff and avoid the OGL if they want: "But CC doesn't cover everything in the SRD?!" So? I thought you were making valuable new content for 5e? What kind of low-rent, Wish version of 5e are you making if it falls apart because you can't reprint what a 5e elf is? Make your own freaking classes, monsters and spells.
Look... I'll do one for you: Bear-owl. Bam. Nailed it.
As far as I'm concerned 1.2 is a total win. And now that's happened I have zero issue going back to a service I love
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I Cancelled my Master Tier Subscription January 12th 2023 because of "OGL" 1.1 - Resubscribed 28th of Jan, now the SRD is in CC-BY-4.0
You do understand that many of us play D&D without a single thing Wizards had a hand in? Every time you sycophants post about how D&D practically wouldn't exist if Wizards had not bought what was for them really nothing more than the name and a list of terms, you expose yourselves as being thoroughly ignorant of a large segment of the community and of how we play the game.
A fairly amazing task to not have a single thing Wizards had a hand in? No Player's Handbook? DMG? Monster Manual?
I get third party stuff has stuff that adds, and may even be better, but I'd think (and that's dangerous) that at least someone in your group purchased one or two (PHB? DMG?) to get the basics of what 5e is about?
But hey, maybe not. It is entirely possible. But when you go calling names and call people ignorant - I'd hope you do realize there is a massive population that does use the stuff that Wizard has put out. And custom stuff. And homebrew stuff made up by DMs and players in the game.
No one is ignoring anyone, I don't think. Certainly no need for the name calling.
yeah this is great "we the people..." stuff, but in reality, yeah they own D&D in every way that matters. Even if they lose 50% of their regular users the game would be more popular than it ever was prior to recently, and eventually more people will join from the wider market and things will return to normal. This isn't to say that we can't use this moment to pressure them to meet reasonal terms, but the point is "reasonable". This sort of grandiose "you don't own D&D, the people do" and "1.0a or death" stuff isn't going to get you any concessions from them.
This "its pointless, give up!" stuff ignores the fact that they've already been forced to backpedal from secretly forcing out 1.1 to working out 1.2 with the community.
Its an attempt to suppress dissent and get people to despair and give up, and its hilariously contrary to the basic facts of the last two weeks.
Reread the post…I didn’t say give up, I said be reasonable. If you thing reasonable pushback against WotC is wrong, then you are blowing this way way out of proportion
Being proactive is more effective than being reactive. Saying "ooo we won they're rethinking it gg" is shortsighted and assumes a skirmish was the entire war. This is why you lose at chess.
What does "winning" look like to you in this scenario?
Fair question.
#OpenD&D.. That is what winning looks like.
D&D is not a product, it's not even a game, it's the community itself. Wizards of the Coast does not own D&D, we, the community do. We will decide what the rules are, not them. If they don't accept that, the same community that created their success will create their failure.
The stewards of D&D have always been the community, not some corporation. We tolerate Wizards of the Coast, but if they test us, we will turn that multi-billion dollar company into a punch line. Don't underestimate the power the community has here, we can shut these guys down if we don't get what we want and we WILL get what we want.
D&D is for everyone and Wizards of the Coast does not get to dictate the terms.
yeah this is great "we the people..." stuff, but in reality, yeah they own D&D in every way that matters. Even if they lose 50% of their regular users the game would be more popular than it ever was prior to recently, and eventually more people will join from the wider market and things will return to normal. This isn't to say that we can't use this moment to pressure them to meet reasonal terms, but the point is "reasonable". This sort of grandiose "you don't own D&D, the people do" and "1.0a or death" stuff isn't going to get you any concessions from them.
You do understand that many of us play D&D without a single thing Wizards had a hand in? Every time you sycophants post about how D&D practically wouldn't exist if Wizards had not bought what was for them really nothing more than the name and a list of terms, you expose yourselves as being thoroughly ignorant of a large segment of the community and of how we play the game.
Why are you on a 5e site then? Because I’m pretty certain wizards came in pre 3e.
People who play even games like Dungeon Crawl Classics refer to what they are doing as "playing D&D" because the hobby is bigger than a product or a brand. And certainly bigger than one company.
I don't begrudge people who play 5e. It's a very good system. I just find it weird that people would think Wizards "own D&D in every way that matters." The community goes well beyond those who use D&D BEYOND and who strictly play 5e.
First, I love that people play whatever it is they're playing that feeds the imagination. Playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, and they describe it as, "Yeah, last night I was playing D&D, and it was a fun session when XYZ happened!" I am never going to correct them and say, "Well, actually, what you're playing wasn't D&D, as in the brand..."
No. If they're having fun. That's what matters. So I am cool with people calling these "other games" D&D or whatever.
However (and mind you, I am far from a lawyer) - but I do believe, overall, Wizards of the Coast does "own" D&D (the trademark, the copyright, the system).
But I completely understand how the community goes well beyond just 5e - or even D&D Beyond. I was just straight up playing D&D with hard copy books since 2nd edition. (Granted, I played in 4th edition, but it's the only edition I didn't buy all the books for). For other content - I both sell, and purchase, things that are "D&D" related on DMsGuild, for example. So I fully support those independent people who are producing content.
My only ask (I feel like a broken record) - and listen, I know you're not going to agree with me when I say this - was that I had wished that these outrages were contained in a few threads, rather than now - what? - well over 100 unique threads all of the same theme (OGL anger, deleting accounts, unsubbing, etc). Now, to me - a single thread seems more logical than flooding the forums. Because if someone comes in posting honest feedback about the site, the game, etc - it's being buried. So their efforts are being lost. But not only that, because everyone is posting unique threads of their anger and frustration - say, I came in here - reviewed the site - and posted unique threads about the barbarian, the artificer, this campaign book and that campaign book - I could push a majority of these OGL, Account, Unsub threads down. If the OGL, Account, Unsub threads were contained in one or two - it would be 50 pages deep, showing impact - where everyone is focused fire in one thread, rather than spread out where someone (if I was that bored) and came along and posted a bunch of "Hey I have feedback about the _______" threads, could push other people's threads down. (Listen, I am not that bored). I am just saying - just like in D&D - faerie fire one thread, and focus fire is the best way to handle an enemy.
Again, I do not expect you to understand that. You will say by flooding the forums they will hear us.
And maybe you're right. Maybe that works for you and all these other people.
In the end, I don't run these forums. So do what you and the others will.
Again, I do not expect you to understand that. You will say by flooding the forums they will hear us.
One thing interesting I see is that no one person is flooding the forums. I've seen a lot of forum flooding in my day - and in this case what I actually see is a wide range. Some people are just wondering "what the heck is going on", while some are posting saying "get out of here with any complaints"
They are all in their own way throwing gas on the fire. You might say you yourself are "feeding the beast". Or you might agree with Yurel1453 who makes a post calling us "Rabbid Hyenas". I wonder if they got a message from a moderator warning THEM about harrassment and Trolling, lol.
In fact - I would say that by and large the anti WOTC crowd are, well - against WOTC. On the other hand, the ones similar to Yurel1453 are insulting on a personal level towards individuals who by and large just don't understand WHY WOTC started all this mess when things were going fine. You understand all this was unecessary and continues to be unneccesary save for the fact that WOTC continues to not be forthright and honest about their full intentions? And, I will point out - WOTC is at least pretending to say they want input on the matter. That is their public statement. They are sorry and they want to hear our complaints so they can fix what they did wrong. That is the official word, right? But we all know it's not the truth - so you want people to stop giving WOTC what they publicly asked for because you yourself know it was a nonsense statement.
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I always wonder what "community" accounts like that are actually talking about
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're probably right - looking at some graphs the growth was pretty linear and a lot of people attribute it to different things. (like stranger things or Crit Role or whatever)
The big question kind of still stands though - "How many people will stick to D&D if it finds itself being "cancelled" by 3rd Party Publishers and soaical media influencers and a large part of the DM community.
I Cancelled my Master Tier Subscription January 12th 2023 because of "OGL" 1.1 - Resubscribed 28th of Jan, now the SRD is in CC-BY-4.0
A fairly amazing task to not have a single thing Wizards had a hand in? No Player's Handbook? DMG? Monster Manual?
I get third party stuff has stuff that adds, and may even be better, but I'd think (and that's dangerous) that at least someone in your group purchased one or two (PHB? DMG?) to get the basics of what 5e is about?
But hey, maybe not. It is entirely possible. But when you go calling names and call people ignorant - I'd hope you do realize there is a massive population that does use the stuff that Wizard has put out. And custom stuff. And homebrew stuff made up by DMs and players in the game.
No one is ignoring anyone, I don't think. Certainly no need for the name calling.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Reread the post…I didn’t say give up, I said be reasonable. If you thing reasonable pushback against WotC is wrong, then you are blowing this way way out of proportion
Why are you on a 5e site then? Because I’m pretty certain wizards came in pre 3e.
First, I love that people play whatever it is they're playing that feeds the imagination. Playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, and they describe it as, "Yeah, last night I was playing D&D, and it was a fun session when XYZ happened!" I am never going to correct them and say, "Well, actually, what you're playing wasn't D&D, as in the brand..."
No. If they're having fun. That's what matters. So I am cool with people calling these "other games" D&D or whatever.
However (and mind you, I am far from a lawyer) - but I do believe, overall, Wizards of the Coast does "own" D&D (the trademark, the copyright, the system).
But I completely understand how the community goes well beyond just 5e - or even D&D Beyond. I was just straight up playing D&D with hard copy books since 2nd edition. (Granted, I played in 4th edition, but it's the only edition I didn't buy all the books for). For other content - I both sell, and purchase, things that are "D&D" related on DMsGuild, for example. So I fully support those independent people who are producing content.
My only ask (I feel like a broken record) - and listen, I know you're not going to agree with me when I say this - was that I had wished that these outrages were contained in a few threads, rather than now - what? - well over 100 unique threads all of the same theme (OGL anger, deleting accounts, unsubbing, etc). Now, to me - a single thread seems more logical than flooding the forums. Because if someone comes in posting honest feedback about the site, the game, etc - it's being buried. So their efforts are being lost. But not only that, because everyone is posting unique threads of their anger and frustration - say, I came in here - reviewed the site - and posted unique threads about the barbarian, the artificer, this campaign book and that campaign book - I could push a majority of these OGL, Account, Unsub threads down. If the OGL, Account, Unsub threads were contained in one or two - it would be 50 pages deep, showing impact - where everyone is focused fire in one thread, rather than spread out where someone (if I was that bored) and came along and posted a bunch of "Hey I have feedback about the _______" threads, could push other people's threads down. (Listen, I am not that bored). I am just saying - just like in D&D - faerie fire one thread, and focus fire is the best way to handle an enemy.
Again, I do not expect you to understand that. You will say by flooding the forums they will hear us.
And maybe you're right. Maybe that works for you and all these other people.
In the end, I don't run these forums. So do what you and the others will.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
One thing interesting I see is that no one person is flooding the forums. I've seen a lot of forum flooding in my day - and in this case what I actually see is a wide range. Some people are just wondering "what the heck is going on", while some are posting saying "get out of here with any complaints"
They are all in their own way throwing gas on the fire. You might say you yourself are "feeding the beast". Or you might agree with Yurel1453 who makes a post calling us "Rabbid Hyenas". I wonder if they got a message from a moderator warning THEM about harrassment and Trolling, lol.
In fact - I would say that by and large the anti WOTC crowd are, well - against WOTC. On the other hand, the ones similar to Yurel1453 are insulting on a personal level towards individuals who by and large just don't understand WHY WOTC started all this mess when things were going fine. You understand all this was unecessary and continues to be unneccesary save for the fact that WOTC continues to not be forthright and honest about their full intentions?
And, I will point out - WOTC is at least pretending to say they want input on the matter. That is their public statement. They are sorry and they want to hear our complaints so they can fix what they did wrong. That is the official word, right? But we all know it's not the truth - so you want people to stop giving WOTC what they publicly asked for because you yourself know it was a nonsense statement.