The real OPness comes from having ability/weapon modifier on all four 1d6 attacks and then adding Hunters Mark or Paladin Smites or any anything else that might stack each attack, or even once per turn on hit like Ranger Colossus or Goliath Fire Burn, Paladin smites or Rogue Sneak attack on a multiclass.
Paladins can't spam Divine Smite any more, it's a bonus action spell now.
I agree with SagaTympana that the Dual Wielder bonus action isn't the same one as the Light property's bonus action. But I also find the Nick property to be ambiguous. It's not clear to me if the Nick property applies to the Light weapon you make the first attack with, or if it applies to the other weapon you take the extra attack with (or both.)
There are only three weapons which have the light property and the nick mastery property. the dagger (simple), light hammer (simple) and scimitar (martial).
But I also find the Nick property to be ambiguous. It's not clear to me if the Nick property applies to the Light weapon you make the first attack with, or if it applies to the other weapon you take the extra attack with (or both.)
"This extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon"
Harsh about the Smite bonus action, though admittedly they could front load more damage than just about anyone, usually everyone else in the group combined. Maybe to force smite to compete with the Dual Wielder bonus action so as not to give them one more attack to land an extra smite?
As for Nick, it does seem like it could possibly be the original or secondary light weapon, but since it's only once per turn, there will certainly be ways to maximize the other attacks with different weapons/mastery like Vex. Even without Quick Draw, you could swap your main hand once after the first attack and chain Advantage for the 3rd and 4th attacks and then the first attack of the next turn.
The real OPness comes from having ability/weapon modifier on all four 1d6 attacks and then adding Hunters Mark or Paladin Smites or any anything else that might stack each attack, or even once per turn on hit like Ranger Colossus or Goliath Fire Burn, Paladin smites or Rogue Sneak attack on a multiclass.
Paladins can't spam Divine Smite any more, it's a bonus action spell now.
I agree with SagaTympana that the Dual Wielder bonus action isn't the same one as the Light property's bonus action. But I also find the Nick property to be ambiguous. It's not clear to me if the Nick property applies to the Light weapon you make the first attack with, or if it applies to the other weapon you take the extra attack with (or both.)
Wow they are right, it doesn't even specify using a different hand, only that two of the attacks must be with different weapons.
1) First attack with shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. 2) 1x stow shortsword, draw scimitar. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon, no bonus action, 1x per turn. 3) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. 4) 2x stow scimitar, draw shortsword from Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. Bonus action attack from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon and shortsword vex mastery gives advantage first attack next turn vs same creature, if you haven't killed it with 4d6 plus 4x modifiers from TWF, hunters mark, etc. 5) Repeat.
You can basically get the same result with Scimitar->Shortsword->Shortsword->Scimitar, depending on whether you infer that the Nick weapon attack causes the free extra attack, or if the Nick weapon must be in hand to make the free extra attack from Light property.
So, you can do all this WITH a shield in the offhand. Seems to not only be written, but also as intended, given the wording of EDW and QD.
Wow they are right, it doesn't even specify using a different hand, only that two of the attacks must be with different weapons.
1) First attack with shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. 2) 1x stow shortsword, draw scimitar. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon, no bonus action, 1x per turn. 3) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. 4) 2x stow scimitar, draw shortsword from Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. Bonus action attack from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon and shortsword vex mastery gives advantage first attack next turn vs same creature, if you haven't killed it with 4d6 plus 4x modifiers from TWF, hunters mark, etc. 5) Repeat.
You can basically get the same result with Scimitar->Shortsword->Shortsword->Scimitar, depending on whether you infer that the Nick weapon attack causes the free extra attack, or if the Nick weapon must be in hand to make the free extra attack from Light property.
So, you can do all this WITH a shield in the offhand. Seems to not only be written, but also as intended, given the wording of EDW and QD.
It's obviously not as intended, because that isn't dual-wielding or two-weapon fighting. And there's certainly an argument to be made that "draw or stow two weapons... when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" means you can draw two weapons or stow weapons, not that you can draw one weapon and stow another, and I think that's definitely the more straightforward reading (and the obvious intent; it's meant to let you immediately begin dual-wielding even if both your weapons are sheathed when combat starts).
I still really wish they'd just specified that the bonus attack must be made with a weapon in a different hand, and that you have to have both weapons in hand for the whole sequence.
Yeah, seems like an errata is needed if two hands are required for any of this. I mean the dual in dual wielder could be dual weapons not dual hands, since it only specifies a different weapon from a previous attack and not what most people associate with wielding a weapon in each hand. Similar to how two weapon fighting isn't two handed fighting to get the extra damage. If it's one drop and one stow, rather than interactions with two weapons, you could also just re-order, since they don't appear to require any particular order. For example:
1) First attack with Light weapon and shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. 2) Extra attack (at level 5) with shortsword at advantage. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. 3) Stow shortsword, draw scimitar. 2x allowed from Quick Draw. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon than attack 1, no bonus action, 1x per turn. At advantage. 4) Bonus action attack with scimitar from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack 2. 5) Repeat but starting with scimitar. Brings back into question whether Nick weapon is the first or second or either attack in the sequence.
I admit I haven't yet looked into the 2024 rules on draw/stow/drop weapons.
I cant find where light weapons have that rule ( "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.") in the 2024 rule set.
I only get "Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons."
Can someone tell me what chapter and heading the light BA attack is? Otherwise by RAW I was interpreting it as nick was intended to replace the 2014 ba light attack.
Can someone tell me what chapter and heading the light BA attack is? Otherwise by RAW I was interpreting it as nick was intended to replace the 2014 ba light attack.
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's obviously not as intended, because that isn't dual-wielding.
And even though they don't explicitly give hand requirements, the example given in the Light property makes it pretty clear that's the intent. It'll probably receive errata.
And there's certainly an argument to be made that "draw or stow two weapons... when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" means you can draw two weapons or stow weapons, not that you can draw one weapon and stow another, and I think that's definitely the more straightforward reading (and the obvious intent; it's meant to let you immediately begin dual-wielding even if both your weapons are sheathed when combat starts).
I admit I haven't yet looked into the 2024 rules on draw/stow/drop weapons.
Dropping now falls under stowing, so it eats up your one equip/stow per turn. That prevents the shenanigans the 2014 rules allowed because of dropping being free.
All things considered I imagine this combination is intentional. The two-handed weapons are now getting extra damage from Cleave and Graze, and they can also benefit from Great Weapon Master (which now lets Heavy weapons add your PB to damage rolls) and Polearm Master. TWF already fell off for Fighters using the 2014 rules once Extra Attack was in the picture, and now the two-handed weapons are stronger still.
Currently running a high level monk ranger. I run two daggers at the start of my turn, attack 3 times, stow them both, stunning strike, grapple with grappler feat so I still do damage, fly up 60 feat, drop them, and then drop myself until 10 feat above them to get charger damage. That's 6d10,1d8,2d6 from melee weapons (Gloom stalker ranger for the 2d6) plus fall damage. It's a lot of fun
I agree with everything you’re saying in terms of RAW, as a DM I would probably rules that in terms of RAI with the wording on the offhand attack from Light other Weapons Masteries that you can’t make two offhand attacks on the same term and that Nick makes it so you do not have to consume your Bonus Action to make said offhand attack. This brings it back to the 2014 RAW but with Nick you get to save the Bonus Action for other use.
I think you could then, because of the Dual Wielder feat, use an offhand Rapier, instead of a Shortsword, to still get the Vex mastery but increase the offhand attack to a d8 instead. Then with your extra attack you could use the Rapier instead of the Scimitar (since my DM ruling RAI is you can’t have to offhand attacks in a turn) to get to 2d8 + 1d6 plus modifiers on each instead of 4d6 plus modifiers.
Again, these are my opinions for my table and I think you’re right in terms of RAW.
Yes, for the final EDW attack it does seem to allow you to switch to a 1d8 non-two-handed weapon like a rapier or longsword to get sap mastery or something like that, though the TWF damage bonus would presumably not apply to a weapon that isn't light, of course. With a weapon in each hand, it all seems doable.
I just wish they would specify main hand or offhand if that was intended in any of these abilities. It's such a glaring omission, it seems more likely they intended one handed with the extra stow and draw using a shield, like those on youtube and other pages have discussed. They definitely need an errata if the sequence I proposed a few posts above was not intended.
I don't think so. The Nick property moves the BA attack from the Light property to the Attack action, which frees the BA for something else. Dual Wielder doesn't actually grant an attack, it modifies the one from the Light property I believe.
So. level 5:
1st. Scimitar, Light allows a BA attack, Nick modifies it to the Attack action.
2nd. Shortsword attack from Nick mastery.
3rd. Extra Attack with Scimitar/Shortsword.
Use BA for some other purpose if you have one. Drink a potion or something.
I don't think so. The Nick property moves the BA attack from the Light property to the Attack action, which frees the BA for something else. Dual Wielder doesn't actually grant an attack, it modifies the one from the Light property I believe.
So. level 5:
1st. Scimitar, Light allows a BA attack, Nick modifies it to the Attack action.
2nd. Shortsword attack from Nick mastery.
3rd. Extra Attack with Scimitar/Shortsword.
Use BA for some other purpose if you have one. Drink a potion or something.
Nick modifies the light property. Dual wielder says:
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Which requires the light property, but is separate from it, so you can get three attacks just out of attacking with a Nick weapon:
Wow they are right, it doesn't even specify using a different hand, only that two of the attacks must be with different weapons.
1) First attack with shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. 2) 1x stow shortsword, draw scimitar. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon, no bonus action, 1x per turn. 3) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. 4) 2x stow scimitar, draw shortsword from Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. Bonus action attack from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon and shortsword vex mastery gives advantage first attack next turn vs same creature, if you haven't killed it with 4d6 plus 4x modifiers from TWF, hunters mark, etc. 5) Repeat.
You can basically get the same result with Scimitar->Shortsword->Shortsword->Scimitar, depending on whether you infer that the Nick weapon attack causes the free extra attack, or if the Nick weapon must be in hand to make the free extra attack from Light property.
So, you can do all this WITH a shield in the offhand. Seems to not only be written, but also as intended, given the wording of EDW and QD.
It's obviously not as intended, because that isn't dual-wielding. And there's certainly an argument to be made that "draw or stow two weapons... when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" means you can draw two weapons or stow weapons, not that you can draw one weapon and stow another, and I think that's definitely the more straightforward reading (and the obvious intent; it's meant to let you immediately begin dual-wielding even if both your weapons are sheathed when combat starts).
I still really wish they'd just specified that the bonus attack must be made with a weapon in a different hand, and that you have to have both weapons in hand for the whole sequence.
I have come to the conclusion that the Object interaction rule should apply.
"Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter."
So I think effectively you need weapons in both hands because you can only draw/stow 1 weapon for free. To do so again requires the utilize action. Which I think makes sense. It makes everything work as one would think without certain abilities being pointless or redundancies that don't matter.
Paladins can't spam Divine Smite any more, it's a bonus action spell now.
I agree with SagaTympana that the Dual Wielder bonus action isn't the same one as the Light property's bonus action. But I also find the Nick property to be ambiguous. It's not clear to me if the Nick property applies to the Light weapon you make the first attack with, or if it applies to the other weapon you take the extra attack with (or both.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
There are only three weapons which have the light property and the nick mastery property.
the dagger (simple), light hammer (simple) and scimitar (martial).
https://startplaying.games/game-master/dmgrisix
But I also find the Nick property to be ambiguous. It's not clear to me if the Nick property applies to the Light weapon you make the first attack with, or if it applies to the other weapon you take the extra attack with (or both.)
"This extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon"
https://startplaying.games/game-master/dmgrisix
Harsh about the Smite bonus action, though admittedly they could front load more damage than just about anyone, usually everyone else in the group combined. Maybe to force smite to compete with the Dual Wielder bonus action so as not to give them one more attack to land an extra smite?
As for Nick, it does seem like it could possibly be the original or secondary light weapon, but since it's only once per turn, there will certainly be ways to maximize the other attacks with different weapons/mastery like Vex. Even without Quick Draw, you could swap your main hand once after the first attack and chain Advantage for the 3rd and 4th attacks and then the first attack of the next turn.
A similar doubt was asked here.
Wow they are right, it doesn't even specify using a different hand, only that two of the attacks must be with different weapons.
1) First attack with shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature.
2) 1x stow shortsword, draw scimitar. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon, no bonus action, 1x per turn.
3) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack.
4) 2x stow scimitar, draw shortsword from Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. Bonus action attack from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon and shortsword vex mastery gives advantage first attack next turn vs same creature, if you haven't killed it with 4d6 plus 4x modifiers from TWF, hunters mark, etc.
5) Repeat.
You can basically get the same result with Scimitar->Shortsword->Shortsword->Scimitar, depending on whether you infer that the Nick weapon attack causes the free extra attack, or if the Nick weapon must be in hand to make the free extra attack from Light property.
So, you can do all this WITH a shield in the offhand. Seems to not only be written, but also as intended, given the wording of EDW and QD.
It's obviously not as intended, because that isn't dual-wielding or two-weapon fighting. And there's certainly an argument to be made that "draw or stow two weapons... when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" means you can draw two weapons or stow weapons, not that you can draw one weapon and stow another, and I think that's definitely the more straightforward reading (and the obvious intent; it's meant to let you immediately begin dual-wielding even if both your weapons are sheathed when combat starts).
I still really wish they'd just specified that the bonus attack must be made with a weapon in a different hand, and that you have to have both weapons in hand for the whole sequence.
Yeah, seems like an errata is needed if two hands are required for any of this. I mean the dual in dual wielder could be dual weapons not dual hands, since it only specifies a different weapon from a previous attack and not what most people associate with wielding a weapon in each hand. Similar to how two weapon fighting isn't two handed fighting to get the extra damage. If it's one drop and one stow, rather than interactions with two weapons, you could also just re-order, since they don't appear to require any particular order. For example:
1) First attack with Light weapon and shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature.
2) Extra attack (at level 5) with shortsword at advantage. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. Enhanced Dual Wielding (from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack.
3) Stow shortsword, draw scimitar. 2x allowed from Quick Draw. Scimitar mastery Nick allows free attack from a different Light property weapon than attack 1, no bonus action, 1x per turn. At advantage.
4) Bonus action attack with scimitar from EDW with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack 2.
5) Repeat but starting with scimitar. Brings back into question whether Nick weapon is the first or second or either attack in the sequence.
I admit I haven't yet looked into the 2024 rules on draw/stow/drop weapons.
I cant find where light weapons have that rule ( "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.") in the 2024 rule set.
I only get "Light. A light weapon is small and easy to handle, making it ideal for use when fighting with two weapons."
Can someone tell me what chapter and heading the light BA attack is? Otherwise by RAW I was interpreting it as nick was intended to replace the 2014 ba light attack.
It's in Weapon Properties
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And even though they don't explicitly give hand requirements, the example given in the Light property makes it pretty clear that's the intent. It'll probably receive errata.
100% agree with this too.
Dropping now falls under stowing, so it eats up your one equip/stow per turn. That prevents the shenanigans the 2014 rules allowed because of dropping being free.
All things considered I imagine this combination is intentional. The two-handed weapons are now getting extra damage from Cleave and Graze, and they can also benefit from Great Weapon Master (which now lets Heavy weapons add your PB to damage rolls) and Polearm Master. TWF already fell off for Fighters using the 2014 rules once Extra Attack was in the picture, and now the two-handed weapons are stronger still.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Currently running a high level monk ranger. I run two daggers at the start of my turn, attack 3 times, stow them both, stunning strike, grapple with grappler feat so I still do damage, fly up 60 feat, drop them, and then drop myself until 10 feat above them to get charger damage. That's 6d10,1d8,2d6 from melee weapons (Gloom stalker ranger for the 2d6) plus fall damage. It's a lot of fun
I agree with everything you’re saying in terms of RAW, as a DM I would probably rules that in terms of RAI with the wording on the offhand attack from Light other Weapons Masteries that you can’t make two offhand attacks on the same term and that Nick makes it so you do not have to consume your Bonus Action to make said offhand attack. This brings it back to the 2014 RAW but with Nick you get to save the Bonus Action for other use.
I think you could then, because of the Dual Wielder feat, use an offhand Rapier, instead of a Shortsword, to still get the Vex mastery but increase the offhand attack to a d8 instead. Then with your extra attack you could use the Rapier instead of the Scimitar (since my DM ruling RAI is you can’t have to offhand attacks in a turn) to get to 2d8 + 1d6 plus modifiers on each instead of 4d6 plus modifiers.
Again, these are my opinions for my table and I think you’re right in terms of RAW.
Yes, for the final EDW attack it does seem to allow you to switch to a 1d8 non-two-handed weapon like a rapier or longsword to get sap mastery or something like that, though the TWF damage bonus would presumably not apply to a weapon that isn't light, of course. With a weapon in each hand, it all seems doable.
I just wish they would specify main hand or offhand if that was intended in any of these abilities. It's such a glaring omission, it seems more likely they intended one handed with the extra stow and draw using a shield, like those on youtube and other pages have discussed. They definitely need an errata if the sequence I proposed a few posts above was not intended.
I don't think so. The Nick property moves the BA attack from the Light property to the Attack action, which frees the BA for something else. Dual Wielder doesn't actually grant an attack, it modifies the one from the Light property I believe.
So. level 5:
1st. Scimitar, Light allows a BA attack, Nick modifies it to the Attack action.
2nd. Shortsword attack from Nick mastery.
3rd. Extra Attack with Scimitar/Shortsword.
Use BA for some other purpose if you have one. Drink a potion or something.
I'll be interested to see if there will be errata for this.
Nick modifies the light property. Dual wielder says:
Which requires the light property, but is separate from it, so you can get three attacks just out of attacking with a Nick weapon:
I have come to the conclusion that the Object interaction rule should apply.
"Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter."
So I think effectively you need weapons in both hands because you can only draw/stow 1 weapon for free. To do so again requires the utilize action. Which I think makes sense. It makes everything work as one would think without certain abilities being pointless or redundancies that don't matter.
Still unsure about this one. Applying DW before Nick makes TWF and DW use the same BA, which Nick then moves to the Attack action.