Let's start with the Light Property. "Light When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
So, the first problem is that the rule doesn't say that the extra attack must be made with a different hand, or that the two weapons must be held at the same time. By the rule as written, you could hold a Shield in one hand and throw two daggers with the other hand, one as the first Attack Action attack and the second as a bonus action attack but without ability modifier added to damage (unless negative). Is this as intended? It certainly doesn't seem to be.
So now let's touch on the Nick Mastery Property: "Nick When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The problem here is that "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is ambiguous. Can a Fighter take one attack action with a Light weapon, make an extra attack with a different Nick weapon WITHOUT using a bonus action, then Action Surge, make an attack with the first Light weapon again, then make a Bonus Action extra attack with the second Light weapon again? It depends on what we think "THIS" extra attack refers to. If it refers to the non-bonus action attack of the Nick Mastery Property, then proc-ing the Light property a second time would enable yet another attack with the available Bonus Action. If it refers to the parent Light weapon extra attack, and said attack has simply been upgraded to no longer require a Bonus Action, then a second Light Weapon Extra Attack would not be possible with Action Surge.
I really think that both of these issues need to be addressed with errata. Whether shenanigans are intended to be possible or are unintended and need to be shut down, WotC needs to clarify. The current fogginess in these rules goes against the stated goal of simple clarity.
Maybe the first example, strictly RAW, is a valid move, but in my opinion, to gain the extra attack as a Bonus Action, you should start the Attack action already wielding two Light weapons.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Assuming that you started the turn with a dagger already drawn then you could throw two daggers with that one hand. I believe strongly that this was intentional. In the 2014 rules, it clearly used the phrases "one hand" and "the other hand" and this has been removed in 2024. The new wording also has nothing to do with melee attacks -- it can now be used for any attack made with a Light weapon, and throwing a weapon qualifies for this according to the thrown property. The entire mechanic has be re-flavored away from "two-weapon fighting" which conjured up the concept that it's somehow slightly faster to fight while wielding two weapons at the same time -- it is now just a function of the Light property, creating the concept that it's just faster to make attacks with lighter weapons. The manner in which you do so has been made to be a bit more flexible to allow for multiple fighting styles and encouraging more different weapons to actually be used during gameplay instead of just the highest damage ones. I like these changes.
The Nick property just means that this can be done without using a Bonus Action so your Bonus Action can be used for something else, which is a pretty big boost to this two-weapon mechanic actually and was one of the main complaints about it before. It is specifying the limit of one per turn here instead of putting that into the Light property because with the default Light property you use your Bonus Action, and you only get one of those anyway. It would probably be less ambiguous if that statement were transferred into the description of the Light property, but I think that the meaning is still clear enough.
Maybe the first example, strictly RAW, is a valid move, but in my opinion, to gain the extra attack as a Bonus Action, you should start the Attack action already wielding two Light weapons.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
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This example is information as far as the designers' intent as far as my second question (about Action Surge and getting a bonus action attack), thank you for sharing it. That, however, does not change how the features are written. They are written ambiguously, and should be clarified or there will be a great deal of confusion.
Assuming that you started the turn with a dagger already drawn then you could throw two daggers with that one hand. I believe strongly that this was intentional. In the 2014 rules, it clearly used the phrases "one hand" and "the other hand" and this has been removed in 2024. The new wording also has nothing to do with melee attacks -- it can now be used for any attack made with a Light weapon, and throwing a weapon qualifies for this according to the thrown property. The entire mechanic has be re-flavored away from "two-weapon fighting" which conjured up the concept that it's somehow slightly faster to fight while wielding two weapons at the same time -- it is now just a function of the Light property, creating the concept that it's just faster to make attacks with lighter weapons. The manner in which you do so has been made to be a bit more flexible to allow for multiple fighting styles and encouraging more different weapons to actually be used during gameplay instead of just the highest damage ones. I like these changes.
The Nick property just means that this can be done without using a Bonus Action so your Bonus Action can be used for something else, which is a pretty big boost to this two-weapon mechanic actually and was one of the main complaints about it before. It is specifying the limit of one per turn here instead of putting that into the Light property because with the default Light property you use your Bonus Action, and you only get one of those anyway. It would probably be less ambiguous if that statement were transferred into the description of the Light property, but I think that the meaning is still clear enough.
There's no need to start with a Dagger drawn. The Thrown property says that you can draw the weapon as part of the attack. So there's no limit to the number of thrown weapon attacks you can make with Player's Handbook 2024 (other than the limits of how many items you have ready to draw and how many attacks you can make, of course).
That said, I'm still not convinced that the rule that is intended to support two weapon fighting is something that can allow all kinds of one handed weapon juggling with one hand. It's not the same thing at all. But we'll see if they side to errata anything.
The biggest issue I see is you can basically as a fighter use a shield and still get the three attacks from two weapon fighting. And even more fun you can in fact attack with a great word and still get 4 attacks from the light weapons.
There's no need to start with a Dagger drawn. The Thrown property says that you can draw the weapon as part of the attack.
Ah, good catch, I forgot about that new rule. That's a good change.
Another nice change is that there is now also the rule that you can either equip or unequip a weapon during an attack that is made with the Attack action. In addition, there is also still the one free object interaction during your turn. With that combination, you can now comfortably switch between a melee weapon and a ranged weapon on any turn without losing an action. So much better.
I'd like to share this post from @Auvergh about the interaction between Light, Nick, Dual Wielder and Two-Weapon Fighting Style (god, what a combo...):
Treantmonk Update on today's video: Monty from the Dungeon Dudes contacted me to let me know he had asked Jeremy Crawford about Dual Wielder at Gencon, and here's how it works: It provides a single bonus action attack, so if you are using a weapon with the Nick Mastery that's one more attack. Two Weapon Fighting does add your ability score modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
And from the also top comment, since it reads so easily.
tomislavtomic5085 I'm pretty sure we're overcomplicating things regarding dual wielding. My interpretation: Everyone may take an offhand attack as a bonus action without adding the ability modifier. Nick allows it without using up the bonus action. The dual wielder feat allows 2 offhand attacks (one from Nick and one from the bonus action). The two weapon fighting style allows us to add the ability score modifier to any offhand attack we may have. That's logical and balanced progression IMO and probably what the designers intended.
So I think I understand how this works... But to add an extra layer of complexity, I'm interested in how it would work in a potential Pact of the Blade Warlock build with a 1st level Fighter dip. I'm not 100% sure I understand how the interaction of the extra attack from thirsting blade and the damage from True Strike.
So for 1 Fighter, 5 Warlock the relevant feats and invocations would be: Two Weapon Fighting, Dual Wielder, Pact of the Blade & Thirsting Blade. Wielding 2 scimitars one attacking using True Strike to get the spellcaster modifier applied and the other functioning as a pact weapon for the same results:
1. CastTrue Strike using non-pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (from True Strike) + True Strike damage d6 2. Nick hit on pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (CHA mod from pact weapon, using mod due to Two Weapon Fighting) 3. Extra attack (from Thirsting blade) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod 4. Bonus action attack (from dual wielder) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod
And of course as a Warlock you would want to get a Hex 1d6 on top of each of those attacks as well for an extra 4d6 assuming everything hits.
Any issues using True Strike or Thirsting Blade as described?
So I think I understand how this works... But to add an extra layer of complexity, I'm interested in how it would work in a potential Pact of the Blade Warlock build with a 1st level Fighter dip. I'm not 100% sure I understand how the interaction of the extra attack from thirsting blade and the damage from True Strike.
So for 1 Fighter, 5 Warlock the relevant feats and invocations would be: Two Weapon Fighting, Dual Wielder, Pact of the Blade & Thirsting Blade. Wielding 2 scimitars one attacking using True Strike to get the spellcaster modifier applied and the other functioning as a pact weapon for the same results:
1. CastTrue Strike using non-pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (from True Strike) + True Strike damage d6 2. Nick hit on pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (CHA mod from pact weapon, using mod due to Two Weapon Fighting) 3. Extra attack (from Thirsting blade) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod 4. Bonus action attack (from dual wielder) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod
And of course as a Warlock you would want to get a Hex 1d6 on top of each of those attacks as well for an extra 4d6 assuming everything hits.
Any issues using True Strike or Thirsting Blade as described?
Extra attack, the light weapon property (and thus nick), and dual wielder all trigger on making the Attack action on your turn. When you cast true strike, you took the Magic action instead, so none of them are usable. Making a weapon attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. (And yes this is confusing.)
Can a Fighter take one attack action with a Light weapon, make an extra attack with a different Nick weapon WITHOUT using a bonus action, then Action Surge, make an attack with the first Light weapon again, then make a Bonus Action extra attack with the second Light weapon again?
Yes. As Fighter, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action with a Nick weapon.
If you then Action Surge and take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, because you already made Nick Mastery's extra attack and that you can make this extra attack only once per turn, you wouldn't be able to use it again as part of the Attack action, but you would still be able to make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
In other words, because extra attack using Light weapons is normally limited by bonus action usage and that when freely made via Nick Mastery bypass it by being made as part of the Attack action, then Nick Master is further limited to 1/turn itself to avoid being used with every Attack action on your turn.
Attack action extra attack 1/turn from either Light property bonus action OR Nick Mastery free untill each have been used up.
I feel like a level-5 fighter with a shield and an empty hand and three daggers on his belt can make three thrown dagger attacks all with the same attack action, and one of them (the one from Nick) won't get the fighter's Str/Dex modifier added into the damage. The fighter will still be left with their bonus action available after this sequence of three attacks.
Pretty sure that fighter could also BA attack with a 4th dagger too.
Nothing about the Nick property says you can't also still use the default twf BA attack.
Actually the definition of Nick specifically says you can't. Remember, Nick doesn't create a new attack. It modifies the extra attack that you get from the Light property.
Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Can a Fighter take one attack action with a Light weapon, make an extra attack with a different Nick weapon WITHOUT using a bonus action, then Action Surge, make an attack with the first Light weapon again, then make a Bonus Action extra attack with the second Light weapon again?
Yes. As Fighter, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action with a Nick weapon.
If you then Action Surge and take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, because you already made Nick Mastery's extra attack and that you can make this extra attack only once per turn, you wouldn't be able to use it again as part of the Attack action, but you would still be able to make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
I don't agree on the second part.
Nick When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
"This extra attack" is the aforementioned "extra attack of the Light property". Nick doesn't give you a new extra attack, it just changes the light property's timing, and also places a restriction on it.
"This extra attack" is the aforementioned "extra attack of the Light property". Nick doesn't give you a new extra attack, it just changes the light property's timing, and also places a restriction on it.
Exactly, but the 1/turn is not a limit in the Light property but the Nick Mastery.
To me ''this'' extra attack = the extra attack of the Light property that you make as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action with the Nick Mastery.
Pretty sure that fighter could also BA attack with a 4th dagger too.
Nothing about the Nick property says you can't also still use the default twf BA attack.
it DOES use the bonus action attack, just not the bonus action. You can make that 4th attack, but you need to have the dual wielder feat.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pretty sure that fighter could also BA attack with a 4th dagger too.
Nothing about the Nick property says you can't also still use the default twf BA attack.
Actually the definition of Nick specifically says you can't. Remember, Nick doesn't create a new attack. It modifies the extra attack that you get from the Light property.
Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Yeah, and light says if you attack with a light weapon you can make another attack as a bonus action.
So, if you have Nick, the sequence is:
1. Attack. 2. Bonus Action Light attack is converted into just part of the attack. Can only do this once. 3. Bonus Action to attack with light weapon. This option was never removed from the table.
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I got quotes!
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Let's start with the Light Property.
"Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
So, the first problem is that the rule doesn't say that the extra attack must be made with a different hand, or that the two weapons must be held at the same time. By the rule as written, you could hold a Shield in one hand and throw two daggers with the other hand, one as the first Attack Action attack and the second as a bonus action attack but without ability modifier added to damage (unless negative). Is this as intended? It certainly doesn't seem to be.
So now let's touch on the Nick Mastery Property:
"Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The problem here is that "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is ambiguous. Can a Fighter take one attack action with a Light weapon, make an extra attack with a different Nick weapon WITHOUT using a bonus action, then Action Surge, make an attack with the first Light weapon again, then make a Bonus Action extra attack with the second Light weapon again?
It depends on what we think "THIS" extra attack refers to. If it refers to the non-bonus action attack of the Nick Mastery Property, then proc-ing the Light property a second time would enable yet another attack with the available Bonus Action. If it refers to the parent Light weapon extra attack, and said attack has simply been upgraded to no longer require a Bonus Action, then a second Light Weapon Extra Attack would not be possible with Action Surge.
I really think that both of these issues need to be addressed with errata. Whether shenanigans are intended to be possible or are unintended and need to be shut down, WotC needs to clarify. The current fogginess in these rules goes against the stated goal of simple clarity.
Light: The example provides how it's intended to be used, but RAW isn't limited as much though.
Nick: This extra attack refers to the one from the Light Property made via Nick Mastery.
Maybe the first example, strictly RAW, is a valid move, but in my opinion, to gain the extra attack as a Bonus Action, you should start the Attack action already wielding two Light weapons.
There is a good example of mixing the Light and Nick properties in the article Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook:
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Nick
Example Weapon: Dagger
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
---
Assuming that you started the turn with a dagger already drawn then you could throw two daggers with that one hand. I believe strongly that this was intentional. In the 2014 rules, it clearly used the phrases "one hand" and "the other hand" and this has been removed in 2024. The new wording also has nothing to do with melee attacks -- it can now be used for any attack made with a Light weapon, and throwing a weapon qualifies for this according to the thrown property. The entire mechanic has be re-flavored away from "two-weapon fighting" which conjured up the concept that it's somehow slightly faster to fight while wielding two weapons at the same time -- it is now just a function of the Light property, creating the concept that it's just faster to make attacks with lighter weapons. The manner in which you do so has been made to be a bit more flexible to allow for multiple fighting styles and encouraging more different weapons to actually be used during gameplay instead of just the highest damage ones. I like these changes.
The Nick property just means that this can be done without using a Bonus Action so your Bonus Action can be used for something else, which is a pretty big boost to this two-weapon mechanic actually and was one of the main complaints about it before. It is specifying the limit of one per turn here instead of putting that into the Light property because with the default Light property you use your Bonus Action, and you only get one of those anyway. It would probably be less ambiguous if that statement were transferred into the description of the Light property, but I think that the meaning is still clear enough.
This example is information as far as the designers' intent as far as my second question (about Action Surge and getting a bonus action attack), thank you for sharing it. That, however, does not change how the features are written. They are written ambiguously, and should be clarified or there will be a great deal of confusion.
There's no need to start with a Dagger drawn. The Thrown property says that you can draw the weapon as part of the attack. So there's no limit to the number of thrown weapon attacks you can make with Player's Handbook 2024 (other than the limits of how many items you have ready to draw and how many attacks you can make, of course).
That said, I'm still not convinced that the rule that is intended to support two weapon fighting is something that can allow all kinds of one handed weapon juggling with one hand. It's not the same thing at all. But we'll see if they side to errata anything.
The biggest issue I see is you can basically as a fighter use a shield and still get the three attacks from two weapon fighting. And even more fun you can in fact attack with a great word and still get 4 attacks from the light weapons.
Ah, good catch, I forgot about that new rule. That's a good change.
Another nice change is that there is now also the rule that you can either equip or unequip a weapon during an attack that is made with the Attack action. In addition, there is also still the one free object interaction during your turn. With that combination, you can now comfortably switch between a melee weapon and a ranged weapon on any turn without losing an action. So much better.
I'd like to share this post from @Auvergh about the interaction between Light, Nick, Dual Wielder and Two-Weapon Fighting Style (god, what a combo...):
---
I'll just quote the comment on Treantmonk's vid from here since I can't bother uploading the screenshot to an image hosting site.
And from the also top comment, since it reads so easily.
So I think I understand how this works... But to add an extra layer of complexity, I'm interested in how it would work in a potential Pact of the Blade Warlock build with a 1st level Fighter dip. I'm not 100% sure I understand how the interaction of the extra attack from thirsting blade and the damage from True Strike.
So for 1 Fighter, 5 Warlock the relevant feats and invocations would be: Two Weapon Fighting, Dual Wielder, Pact of the Blade & Thirsting Blade. Wielding 2 scimitars one attacking using True Strike to get the spellcaster modifier applied and the other functioning as a pact weapon for the same results:
1. CastTrue Strike using non-pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (from True Strike) + True Strike damage d6
2. Nick hit on pact Scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod (CHA mod from pact weapon, using mod due to Two Weapon Fighting)
3. Extra attack (from Thirsting blade) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod
4. Bonus action attack (from dual wielder) with pact scimitar: 1d6 + CHA mod
And of course as a Warlock you would want to get a Hex 1d6 on top of each of those attacks as well for an extra 4d6 assuming everything hits.
Any issues using True Strike or Thirsting Blade as described?
Extra attack, the light weapon property (and thus nick), and dual wielder all trigger on making the Attack action on your turn. When you cast true strike, you took the Magic action instead, so none of them are usable. Making a weapon attack is not the same thing as taking the Attack action. (And yes this is confusing.)
Yes. As Fighter, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action with a Nick weapon.
If you then Action Surge and take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, because you already made Nick Mastery's extra attack and that you can make this extra attack only once per turn, you wouldn't be able to use it again as part of the Attack action, but you would still be able to make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
In other words, because extra attack using Light weapons is normally limited by bonus action usage and that when freely made via Nick Mastery bypass it by being made as part of the Attack action, then Nick Master is further limited to 1/turn itself to avoid being used with every Attack action on your turn.
Attack action extra attack 1/turn from either Light property bonus action OR Nick Mastery free untill each have been used up.
I feel like a level-5 fighter with a shield and an empty hand and three daggers on his belt can make three thrown dagger attacks all with the same attack action, and one of them (the one from Nick) won't get the fighter's Str/Dex modifier added into the damage. The fighter will still be left with their bonus action available after this sequence of three attacks.
Pretty sure that fighter could also BA attack with a 4th dagger too.
Nothing about the Nick property says you can't also still use the default twf BA attack.
I got quotes!
Actually the definition of Nick specifically says you can't. Remember, Nick doesn't create a new attack. It modifies the extra attack that you get from the Light property.
Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I don't agree on the second part.
"This extra attack" is the aforementioned "extra attack of the Light property". Nick doesn't give you a new extra attack, it just changes the light property's timing, and also places a restriction on it.
Exactly, but the 1/turn is not a limit in the Light property but the Nick Mastery.
To me ''this'' extra attack = the extra attack of the Light property that you make as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action with the Nick Mastery.
it DOES use the bonus action attack, just not the bonus action. You can make that 4th attack, but you need to have the dual wielder feat.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yeah, and light says if you attack with a light weapon you can make another attack as a bonus action.
So, if you have Nick, the sequence is:
1. Attack. 2. Bonus Action Light attack is converted into just part of the attack. Can only do this once. 3. Bonus Action to attack with light weapon. This option was never removed from the table.
I got quotes!