Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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I'm not sure this was really answered but magic in itself did not make you become evil, being a defiler did. Magic was powered by something like nature energy or life energy. you cast spells in a way that is "normal" for the setting you suck the life out of plants etc near you they turn to dust and it powers your spell. But there were ways to cast spells in balance with nature think of it like the difference between clear cutting and deforesting vs selective cutting with replanting. Sorcerer kings were doing it the defiler way for so long the world is close to dead. But you can cast in a way you don't take enough to destroy and can give some back. in 2e the 2 wizard classes leveled at different rates, so if you went defiler you'd level up faster. Preservers leveled slower but being in harmony had some benefits which I can't remember as its been a while. I'm pretty sure either way it was illegal if you weren't a lacky of the sorcerer king in your area so you rarely cast spells out in the open. And casting spells like a defiler was considered an evil act. You can only do evil things so long before you become evil yourself.
Psionics was the more normal magic source. You were cut off from gods so clerics got their powers directly from the elemental planes, warlocks and sorcerers did not exist yet in the mechanics so who knows how they will handle them if they put them in. Paladins back in 2e got powers from gods not oaths and did not exist but back then they were lawful good which would be rough in the setting. it was a dead world so druids manifested things differently i think from spirits of the land or something, never was a druid player so i am not sure exactly but I remember a player doing a mumra bit but ancient spirits of water. I am kind of curious if they will remove classes for the setting or redefine them. IIRC you had access to the elemental planes so for the warlock genie and primordial could fit. But I think you would still want to define them around the defiler/preserver access so you didn't have an easy arcane caster out. Paladins no longer have an alignment requirement and are based on oaths not gods.
Tests had Warlocks get power from a Sorcerer King, Defilers be Sorcerers & Preservers be Druids.
Otherwise, most Martial classes & subclasses should be fine. It's non-UA casters that create issues.
Honestly, at this point...WotC is damned if they do, damned if they don't w/EVERYTHING short of selling the Dungeons & Dragons IP to Darrington Press or Paizo, so I expect there will be controversy no matter what.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
On the other hand, low-level characters in 2e were really quite brittle, much more so than 5e. A 5e level 1 is probably closer to a 2e level 3 in survivability, even with the tougher monsters.
Most 2e level 1s could be one-shot by normal enemies that rolled well.
Still a bit of a concern in 5e, given that baseline HP can still be within one damage die roll plus mod.
I'm tentatively hopeful WotC can excise the worst of the edgy, toxic elements while still retaining what makes Dark Sun unique and challenging as a setting. Jennifer Kretchmer shared a brief thread of her thoughts on Dark Sun this past weekend, and I find I share her optimism for the setting overall and for this 5.5E release. She wholeheartedly agreed there are valid concerns about Dark Sun and its legacy, its harmful elements, and about how folks who want to could absolutely use the setting to tell harmful stories when the 5.5E version is released. But she also recognized the themes of Dark Sun are incredibly relevant right now: environmentalism, overthrowing tyrants, finding community when the powers that be want to stoke fear, hatred, and division, difficult choices around power and how or if it's even possible to use it to protect communities, and the apocalyptic power of greed. She also identified a key theme is that victory isn't about winning an impossible fight today, but sowing the seeds of hope and moving the needle just the tiniest bit so the struggle tomorrow seems less bleak and impossible. She also wisely noted that not every story needs to be for everybody, and it's okay to take a big swing on making mature content for mature audiences.
As long as "Mature" isn't conflated w/"r**e fantasy", "Gor-/Den of Earth-core", &" "git gud", that is.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Sounds pithy, though honestly I'm not really convinced they can write a setting description and/or adventure/module series with that degree of finesse. This is all extremely character-driven stuff, so it's largely reliant on people being able to convincingly play into particular roles to make it feel plausible rather than contrived. Particularly if you're trying to thread the needle of "the plot MCs didn't actually win, but managed to set change in motion". Don't get me wrong, I've seen plots like that done beautifully- loved the first Mistborn book, for instance- but again it's the kind of thing that I'd say takes a lot of stage managing of the plot and cast rather than running through typical adventure objectives. Otherwise we're either back to "defeat the dark lord and everyone rejoices"- which is very much D&D's bread and butter, just not what's been outlined- or we're told that a likely very dysfunctional rag-tag band of misfits (because let's be honest, that's what typical LFG party or group of friends more interested in fun moments than storytelling will look like) made a bunch of ruckus but didn't actually change things, and yet somehow became some meaningful beacon.
I dunno, I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with people using the setting, but honestly if they wanted to rehash the concept I think they'd have been better served by taking the opportunity to work from a blank canvas rather than trying to find a particular not too hot or too cold balance of grimdark from an infamously heavy-handed setting. This mostly just seems guaranteed to provide extra grist for the critics on both ends of the spectrum as they either decry how WotC is "turning settings woke" or "reviving and reintroducing toxic elements". Seems like a much better field for trying to get a particular message across in the medium than trying their luck on the "ship of Odysseus" problem.
I totally agree with you. I think they can create that "balance". I honestly hope they could, because the world looks stunning and it has a lot of interesting topics that could create amazing camaigns if developed correctly.
Do you have the link of that interview? If I may ask.
Thanks for your answer. 😊
"
It was a thread on Bluesky, and Jen has privacy options set so only signed-in users can read posts. If you're on Bluesky just search for Jennifer Kretchmer and check out the thread from this past Saturday. Honestly, Jen is worth a follow for being a rad person overall and a great resource for the D&D community.
I agree with all this, but I'm also someone who has absolutely zero nostalgia for Dark Sun in the first place -- maybe even negative nostalgia. So I'm hardly the target audience for whatever they're trying to do with it
Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
While anything can be true, I am not sure the evidence really supports this as the most likely conclusion. It was strongly hinted that Dark Sun was in the early stages of development back in 2017, alongside the ultimately scrapped Mystic class playtest. This was followed by a period of Crawford and Perkins making some statements showing they were reluctant to revisit the setting given its themes and their own feeling they were not the right stewards to address those themes (which, to be clear, I think shows strong self awareness on their part and is not meant as an insult). We also can generally tell that Crawford and Perkins shied away from more lethal content - the underpowered nature of monsters, and fact 2024 did not really go as far as many were hoping based on stated goals shows that.
It is also worth noting that a lot of new designers on the team might not come from Dark Sun, but they were third party producers of content cut from similar grimdark cloth. I think the Occam’s razor conclusion is not that corporate stepped in to force Dark Sun, but rather it was something members of the team have wanted to bring into 5e for almost a decade, they built a team more capable of taking on this kind of project, and the folks who were in charge and blocked this kind of project have now left.
You actually just reinforced my theory rather than refuting it, but sure
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The first Psion UA had Wild Talent feats, which are meant to represent exactly what you've just described: Wild Talents. The same UA also noted that "Backgrounds [...] will be included with these feats in a future book if they become official," so those feats are most likely going to be in Dark Sun: Blood and Power as the feats attached to its backgrounds.
"Let's keep things civil, friend. We're not looking for trouble."
I'm just happy to be here.
I know I'm late to the discussion, but Dark Sun is essentially a mixture of Dune, Mad Max, Heavy Metal Magazine, and Conan the Barbarian. In the setting, the world is dying. Arcane magic draws the lifeforce out of the environment, and thus it divided into two forms: Preserver, and Defiler. Preservers draw it slowly, carefully so as to not destroy the environment(akin to a hummingbird drinking nectar out of the flower). Defiler doesn't care and does it all at once(akin to eating the entire flower). As a result, over time, the world was destroyed and a group of people committed omnicide and sought to ascend to godhood by becoming dragons(not the kind we think about). Those that are left are now living on a desert planet where life is brutal and short, and the world itself reflects that. As a result, there are topics that people struggle with:
Slavery
Racism
Genocide
Eugenics
Moral grey to the extreme (such as would you sell someone into slavery if it means you could get a gallon of water that you desperately need sort of grey)
As a result, they initially didn't want to touch it as when it comes down to it, if they do it poorly, that means that they end up getting strung up by the mob. I wonder how they will handle this.
How so? devolopment team and corporate direction isn't exactly the same thing.
I think all these things are true in a way.
People in the D&D community have been clamoring for older content to be updated, and not just darksun for a while, even before 5E was out. I am sure the design teams had these people among them as well.
WoTC has made some missteps in recent years and have burned a lot of good will with many actions we won't go into.
Corporate Greenlighting all these old nostalgia projects could be seen as either "We need wins with the community so lets give them the thing they have been asking for" or "There has been steady concerted demand for this. Let's do it as it sounds like a safe bet."
If Caerwyn is right and there has been Partially developed Darksun for decades I would make sense to finish this up and release it. It is a first step in trying to soothe ruffled feathers and/or a safe bet. We know Greyhawk is coming, and i wouldn't be surprised if Mystara or other such neglected settings got updates.
Also, it is easier to adjust and update than to make something completely new, which mean they can keep up a release cadence WHILE they work on the new stuff, which will take a while.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Follow the timeline that got laid out in that post (and try to figure out what the heck "team" is supposed to mean while you're at it)
According to Caerwyn, there's been a push at WOTC to do Dark Sun for a decade, but it required bringing in an entirely new creative group to make it happen because Perkins & Crawford were roadblocks. That doesn't sound like something bubbling up organically from the bottom
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The idea that Dark Sun might be seen as a "safe bet" is genuinely hilarious
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This sound really organic, if was only a corporate thing would be a building up, only do "do it". This sound much more a move from someone like James Wait then some high up from WOTC or Hasbro
Building on the above, Wizards did not "bring in a new creative group." Crawford and Perkins telegraphed that they were getting close to retirement from the big leagues for years, but they wanted to see the creation of 5.5e released before they went. They had, after all, been working for D&D for decades at that point. They released the core books and then did exactly what they had said they wanted to do - step aside so they could enjoy their retirement in the minor leagues working at a small (if well known) studio.
Let us look at the objectively known, and clearly established facts in this decision, without any additional information not presently in evidence added:
You further admitted one data point that is more opinion based, but still a very likely conclusion - that Dark Sun is "not a safe bet." In fact, you said it would be "hilarious" to consider it a "safe bet", which sort of undermines the conclusion that corporate might want to gamble the expense of time and development on it (particularly since they have to spend extra money for things like shrink wrapping the content and intentionally cutting out potential audiences by marketing it to 18+).
As I said, maybe corporate stepped in at some point to tilt the scales on that. But we do not really have facts to support that was the primary driver of the revisiting and the clear and convincing evidence shows that, even if corporate did want Dark Sun for financial reasons, this is a project primarily driven by the creative team. To reach your conclusion, you have to fabricate facts not presently in evidence ("corporate meddled and forced the setting") which are not actually necessary to reaching the exact same conclusion as the real facts. Or you have to do as you did above and flagrantly misread reality to twist a fact to your own narrative - such as claiming corporate "brought in a new team to make it happen", despite the fact overwhelming evidence shows this new team was created organically by following the exact timeline and design Crawford and Perkins telegraphed for years.
This is why Occam's Razor exists - it a maxim stating that, if you have the facts necessary to explain a situation, you do not need to make up additional facts that result in the same conclusion occurring. When you start making up facts to chart a different path to the same place - which is exactly what your "this must be corporate's decision!" conclusion does - you leave the realm of dealing with reality and enter the realm of conspiracy. Rarely you might be right - but you would be right based entirely on the coincidence your made up facts reflected reality, not any actual foresight or knowledge. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
I also want to leave this topic with one final conclusion - your entire conspiracy is incredibly insulting to the developers of this game. It is very clear that a lot of them like Dark Sun. Very clear a lot of them have wanted to revisit Dark Sun for some time. Very clear a lot of them like grimdark content.
And you are basically telling them "Na, it could not have organically come from your own wants and desires. Without any real evidence, I am going to discount and take away any possible agency you might have exercised this decision and decree this must be the result of corporate wanting profits." If you cannot see how that is incredibly dismissive and insulting, then I do not know what to tell you - it objectively is.