Dark Sun: an interesting and polemic setting

Quote from JaimeVonCarstein >> 

The thing about psionic powers and consent is pretty nasty. I will never allow that at my table and I'll be pretty clear on this matter in my Season 0. Thanks for advicing me!

I have one question about the Psionic class: would it be compatible with other settings (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk...).?

And using magic in this game makes you become evil?

 

Thanks for your time and your interesting answer about setting. I'm learning a lot!

I'm not sure this was really answered but magic in itself did not make you become evil, being a defiler did.  Magic was powered by something like nature energy or life energy. you cast spells in a way that is "normal" for the setting you suck the life out of plants etc near you they turn to dust and it powers your spell. But there were ways to cast spells in balance with nature think of it like the difference between clear cutting and deforesting vs selective cutting with replanting. Sorcerer kings were doing it the defiler way for so long the world is close to dead. But you can cast in a way you don't take enough to destroy and can give some back. in 2e the 2 wizard classes leveled at different rates, so if you went defiler you'd level up faster. Preservers leveled slower but being in harmony had some benefits which I can't remember as its been a while. I'm pretty sure either way it was illegal if you weren't a lacky of the sorcerer king in your area so you rarely cast spells out in the open. And casting spells like a defiler was considered an evil act. You can only do evil things so long before you become evil yourself. 

Psionics was the more normal magic source. You were cut off from gods so clerics got their powers directly from the elemental planes, warlocks and sorcerers did not exist yet in the mechanics so who knows how they will handle them if they put them in. Paladins back in 2e got powers from gods not oaths and did not exist but back then they were lawful good which would be rough in the setting.  it was a dead world so druids manifested things differently i think from spirits of the land or something, never was a druid player so i am not sure exactly but I remember a player doing a mumra bit but ancient spirits of water. I am kind of curious if they will remove classes for the setting or redefine them. IIRC you had access to the elemental planes so for the warlock genie and primordial could fit. But I think you would still want to define them around the defiler/preserver access so you didn't have an easy arcane caster out. Paladins no longer have an alignment requirement and are based on oaths not gods. 

Tests had Warlocks get power from a Sorcerer King, Defilers be Sorcerers & Preservers be Druids.

Otherwise, most Martial classes & subclasses should be fine. It's non-UA casters that create issues.

Honestly, at this point...WotC is damned if they do, damned if they don't w/EVERYTHING short of selling the Dungeons & Dragons IP to Darrington Press or Paizo, so I expect there will be controversy no matter what.

Quote from Xalthu >>

When it first came out in 2e, they recommended starting at level 3 (first time it was officially suggested not to start at 1, iirc) because level 1 or 2 characters would be too fragile to live. They also suggested making 3 characters to start, because it was very lethal, which in the 1/2e era was really saying something. 

On the other hand, low-level characters in 2e were really quite brittle, much more so than 5e. A 5e level 1 is probably closer to a 2e level 3 in survivability, even with the tougher monsters.

Most 2e level 1s could be one-shot by normal enemies that rolled well.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from Xalthu >>

When it first came out in 2e, they recommended starting at level 3 (first time it was officially suggested not to start at 1, iirc) because level 1 or 2 characters would be too fragile to live. They also suggested making 3 characters to start, because it was very lethal, which in the 1/2e era was really saying something. 

On the other hand, low-level characters in 2e were really quite brittle, much more so than 5e. A 5e level 1 is probably closer to a 2e level 3 in survivability, even with the tougher monsters.

Most 2e level 1s could be one-shot by normal enemies that rolled well.

Still a bit of a concern in 5e, given that baseline HP can still be within one damage die roll plus mod.

I'm tentatively hopeful WotC can excise the worst of the edgy, toxic elements while still retaining what makes Dark Sun unique and challenging as a setting. Jennifer Kretchmer shared a brief thread of her thoughts on Dark Sun this past weekend, and I find I share her optimism for the setting overall and for this 5.5E release. She wholeheartedly agreed there are valid concerns about Dark Sun and its legacy, its harmful elements, and about how folks who want to could absolutely use the setting to tell harmful stories when the 5.5E version is released. But she also recognized the themes of Dark Sun are incredibly relevant right now: environmentalism, overthrowing tyrants, finding community when the powers that be want to stoke fear, hatred, and division, difficult choices around power and how or if it's even possible to use it to protect communities, and the apocalyptic power of greed. She also identified a key theme is that victory isn't about winning an impossible fight today, but sowing the seeds of hope and moving the needle just the tiniest bit so the struggle tomorrow seems less bleak and impossible. She also wisely noted that not every story needs to be for everybody, and it's okay to take a big swing on making mature content for mature audiences.

Quote from ApplePaladin >>

I'm tentatively hopeful WotC can excise the worst of the edgy, toxic elements while still retaining what makes Dark Sun unique and challenging as a setting. Jennifer Kretchmer shared a brief thread of her thoughts on Dark Sun this past weekend, and I find I share her optimism for the setting overall and for this 5.5E release. She wholeheartedly agreed there are valid concerns about Dark Sun and its legacy, its harmful elements, and about how folks who want to could absolutely use the setting to tell harmful stories when the 5.5E version is released. But she also recognized the themes of Dark Sun are incredibly relevant right now: environmentalism, overthrowing tyrants, finding community when the powers that be want to stoke fear, hatred, and division, difficult choices around power and how or if it's even possible to use it to protect communities, and the apocalyptic power of greed. She also identified a key theme is that victory isn't about winning an impossible fight today, but sowing the seeds of hope and moving the needle just the tiniest bit so the struggle tomorrow seems less bleak and impossible. She also wisely noted that not every story needs to be for everybody, and it's okay to take a big swing on making mature content for mature audiences.

 As long as "Mature" isn't conflated w/"r**e fantasy", "Gor-/Den of Earth-core", &" "git gud", that is.

Sounds pithy, though honestly I'm not really convinced they can write a setting description and/or adventure/module series with that degree of finesse. This is all extremely character-driven stuff, so it's largely reliant on people being able to convincingly play into particular roles to make it feel plausible rather than contrived. Particularly if you're trying to thread the needle of "the plot MCs didn't actually win, but managed to set change in motion". Don't get me wrong, I've seen plots like that done beautifully- loved the first Mistborn book, for instance- but again it's the kind of thing that I'd say takes a lot of stage managing of the plot and cast rather than running through typical adventure objectives. Otherwise we're either back to "defeat the dark lord and everyone rejoices"- which is very much D&D's bread and butter, just not what's been outlined- or we're told that a likely very dysfunctional rag-tag band of misfits (because let's be honest, that's what typical LFG party or group of friends more interested in fun moments than storytelling will look like) made a bunch of ruckus but didn't actually change things, and yet somehow became some meaningful beacon.

I dunno, I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with people using the setting, but honestly if they wanted to rehash the concept I think they'd have been better served by taking the opportunity to work from a blank canvas rather than trying to find a particular not too hot or too cold balance of grimdark from an infamously heavy-handed setting. This mostly just seems guaranteed to provide extra grist for the critics on both ends of the spectrum as they either decry how WotC is "turning settings woke" or "reviving and reintroducing toxic elements". Seems like a much better field for trying to get a particular message across in the medium than trying their luck on the "ship of Odysseus" problem.

Quote from ApplePaladin >>

I'm tentatively hopeful WotC can excise the worst of the edgy, toxic elements while still retaining what makes Dark Sun unique and challenging as a setting. Jennifer Kretchmer shared a brief thread of her thoughts on Dark Sun this past weekend, and I find I share her optimism for the setting overall and for this 5.5E release. She wholeheartedly agreed there are valid concerns about Dark Sun and its legacy, its harmful elements, and about how folks who want to could absolutely use the setting to tell harmful stories when the 5.5E version is released. But she also recognized the themes of Dark Sun are incredibly relevant right now: environmentalism, overthrowing tyrants, finding community when the powers that be want to stoke fear, hatred, and division, difficult choices around power and how or if it's even possible to use it to protect communities, and the apocalyptic power of greed. She also identified a key theme is that victory isn't about winning an impossible fight today, but sowing the seeds of hope and moving the needle just the tiniest bit so the struggle tomorrow seems less bleak and impossible. She also wisely noted that not every story needs to be for everybody, and it's okay to take a big swing on making mature content for mature audiences.

I totally agree with you. I think they can create that "balance". I honestly hope they could, because the world looks stunning and it has a lot of interesting topics that could create amazing camaigns if developed correctly.

Do you have the link of that interview? If I may ask.

Thanks for your answer. 😊

It was a thread on Bluesky, and Jen has privacy options set so only signed-in users can read posts. If you're on Bluesky just search for Jennifer Kretchmer and check out the thread from this past Saturday. Honestly, Jen is worth a follow for being a rad person overall and a great resource for the D&D community.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Sounds pithy, though honestly I'm not really convinced they can write a setting description and/or adventure/module series with that degree of finesse. This is all extremely character-driven stuff, so it's largely reliant on people being able to convincingly play into particular roles to make it feel plausible rather than contrived. Particularly if you're trying to thread the needle of "the plot MCs didn't actually win, but managed to set change in motion". Don't get me wrong, I've seen plots like that done beautifully- loved the first Mistborn book, for instance- but again it's the kind of thing that I'd say takes a lot of stage managing of the plot and cast rather than running through typical adventure objectives. Otherwise we're either back to "defeat the dark lord and everyone rejoices"- which is very much D&D's bread and butter, just not what's been outlined- or we're told that a likely very dysfunctional rag-tag band of misfits (because let's be honest, that's what typical LFG party or group of friends more interested in fun moments than storytelling will look like) made a bunch of ruckus but didn't actually change things, and yet somehow became some meaningful beacon.

 

I dunno, I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with people using the setting, but honestly if they wanted to rehash the concept I think they'd have been better served by taking the opportunity to work from a blank canvas rather than trying to find a particular not too hot or too cold balance of grimdark from an infamously heavy-handed setting. This mostly just seems guaranteed to provide extra grist for the critics on both ends of the spectrum as they either decry how WotC is "turning settings woke" or "reviving and reintroducing toxic elements". Seems like a much better field for trying to get a particular message across in the medium than trying their luck on the "ship of Odysseus" problem.

I agree with all this, but I'm also someone who has absolutely zero nostalgia for Dark Sun in the first place -- maybe even negative nostalgia. So I'm hardly the target audience for whatever they're trying to do with it

Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

 

Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow

While anything can be true, I am not sure the evidence really supports this as the most likely conclusion.  It was strongly hinted that Dark Sun was in the early stages of development back in 2017, alongside the ultimately scrapped Mystic class playtest. This was followed by a period of Crawford and Perkins making some statements showing they were reluctant to revisit the setting given its themes and their own feeling they were not the right stewards to address those themes (which, to be clear, I think shows strong self awareness on their part and is not meant as an insult).  We also can generally tell that Crawford and Perkins shied away from more lethal content - the underpowered nature of monsters, and fact 2024 did not really go as far as many were hoping based on stated goals shows that.

It is also worth noting that a lot of new designers on the team might not come from Dark Sun, but they were third party producers of content cut from similar grimdark cloth.  I think the Occam’s razor conclusion is not that corporate stepped in to force Dark Sun, but rather it was something members of the team have wanted to bring into 5e for almost a decade, they built a team more capable of taking on this kind of project, and the folks who were in charge and blocked this kind of project have now left. 

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

 

Honestly, the impression I'm getting is that there was a corporate directive to use old IP, Dark Sun scored highly on various surveys so it got greenlit, and the creative team is doing their best to actually make it work somehow

 

While anything can be true, I am not sure the evidence really supports this as the most likely conclusion.  It was strongly hinted that Dark Sun was in the early stages of development back in 2017, alongside the ultimately scrapped Mystic class playtest. This was followed by a period of Crawford and Perkins making some statements showing they were reluctant to revisit the setting given its themes and their own feeling they were not the right stewards to address those themes (which, to be clear, I think shows strong self awareness on their part and is not meant as an insult).  We also can generally tell that Crawford and Perkins shied away from more lethal content - the underpowered nature of monsters, and fact 2024 did not really go as far as many were hoping based on stated goals shows that.

It is also worth noting that a lot of new designers on the team might not come from Dark Sun, but they were third party producers of content cut from similar grimdark cloth.  I think the Occam’s razor conclusion is not that corporate stepped in to force Dark Sun, but rather it was something members of the team have wanted to bring into 5e for almost a decade, they built a team more capable of taking on this kind of project, and the folks who were in charge and blocked this kind of project have now left. 

You actually just reinforced my theory rather than refuting it, but sure

Quote from Xalthu >>

Also with psionics, everyone has some. There were psionicists, yes, but every PC had at least 1 minor power.

 The first Psion UA had Wild Talent feats, which are meant to represent exactly what you've just described: Wild Talents. The same UA also noted that "Backgrounds [...] will be included with these feats in a future book if they become official," so those feats are most likely going to be in Dark Sun: Blood and Power as the feats attached to its backgrounds.

I know I'm late to the discussion, but Dark Sun is essentially a mixture of Dune, Mad Max, Heavy Metal Magazine, and Conan the Barbarian. In the setting, the world is dying. Arcane magic draws the lifeforce out of the environment, and thus it divided into two forms: Preserver, and Defiler. Preservers draw it slowly, carefully so as to not destroy the environment(akin to a hummingbird drinking nectar out of the flower). Defiler doesn't care and does it all at once(akin to eating the entire flower). As a result, over time, the world was destroyed and a group of people committed omnicide and sought to ascend to godhood by becoming dragons(not the kind we think about). Those that are left are now living on a desert planet where life is brutal and short, and the world itself reflects that. As a result, there are topics that people struggle with:

Slavery
Racism
Genocide
Eugenics
Moral grey to the extreme (such as would you sell someone into slavery if it means you could get a gallon of water that you desperately need sort of grey)

As a result, they initially didn't want to touch it as when it comes down to it, if they do it poorly, that means that they end up getting strung up by the mob. I wonder how they will handle this.