In this day and age, most people have devices like laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. Rather than dragging 50 pounds of books to each game, most people wouldn't mind having a digital copy. Not just an online toolset, but a copy they can read when not in WiFi range (like on a lunch break in an eatery with no free wifi, or on a long road trip for another example), or even at a game table in a place with shoddy internet or no internet whatsoever.
If you have purchased the books you can download them directly to your devices through the D&D Beyond app. The app is still in development so more features are coming, but what you describe here is already part and parcel of DDB. I have many of the books added on there, and I love using them for prep on long car trips or airplane rides.
i have all hard cover book up to MToF can you stat that you still need to pay money and price for digital copy. i am Assuming you can not down load a digital copy without paying some money if you want both hard cover and digital. on a side note i like to buy my D&D books from my local shop to keep them open and not relying on buying it online i am assuming digital is only online from this side or D&D side or other digital sites
i have all hard cover book up to MToF can you stat that you still need to pay money and price for digital copy. i am Assuming you can not down load a digital copy without paying some money if you want both hard cover and digital. on a side note i like to buy my D&D books from my local shop to keep them open and not relying on buying it online i am assuming digital is only online from this side or D&D side or other digital sites
You are correct. If you want the digital copy, you must purchase it separately. You can purchase a digital copy here at DDB to use their tools, or Roll20/FantasyGrounds to utilize their tools. Each is a separate entity/licencor, purchases are not transferable between them.
The only exception to this is if you get the Premium edition of Dragon Heist which includes miniatures, maps, hand-outs and other accouterments ($500.00), which also comes with a code that can be redeemed on DDB for a digital edition.
on a side note i like to buy my D&D books from my local shop to keep them open and not relying on buying it online i am assuming digital is only online from this side or D&D side or other digital sites
That's a perfectly acceptable argument to be made for purchasing physical copies over DDB, if you're going to choose just the one. D&D for the past ten years has been all about the growth of community, whether online or local. Your local shop is the hub of the local community, and deserves the support.
For myself, the community I am a part of is online. My area hasn't had the best luck with local stores. Each of the two stores foster more of the cheeto-fingered, "magical realm" type of player, and one was even closed down after the owner was arrested for bank robbery.
That said, I started DMing this year. I like to think that maybe I can return to my remaining local store, help . . . broaden the community a bit.
I observe two goals of this thread. One is to come here with grievances about the topic to find like-minded individuals and to protest the way things are and hope for change. The other is to protest the first goal by circling around like sharks as protesters from group one trickle in one by one and group attack them, and at the same time, scare away anyone else from voicing their protest.
It's understandable to assume an ulterior motive, i.e. "circling around like sharks," but honestly I'm sure most people who comment here are like me, and only come back because there's a little notifier that someone's responded to a thread we follow (which is automatically anything we respond to) and eh, since we're already here. After all, I'm only here now because I'm on lunch and happened to notice that notification just as I wrapped up creating a combative NPC for my group next session.
Nobody here has any intent of attacking anyone, I'm sure, but I can understand if those of us who have heard the same protests before come across as short the more it comes up. At the end of the day, the majority of the protests that boil down to wanting something for nothing, are not founded on reasonable or constructive criticism, and they are treated as such. Those that simply come into it as not understanding are given the information to better grasp it, and I've always tried to be polite when that has come up. It typically ends there unless that lack of understanding turns into willful, vocal denial.
It's understandable to assume an ulterior motive, i.e. "circling around like sharks," but honestly I'm sure most people who comment here are like me, and only come back because there's a little notifier that someone's responded to a thread we follow (which is automatically anything we respond to) and eh, since we're already here. After all, I'm only here now because I'm on lunch and happened to notice that notification just as I wrapped up creating a combative NPC for my group next session.
Nobody here has any intent of attacking anyone, I'm sure, but I can understand if those of us who have heard the same protests before come across as short the more it comes up. At the end of the day, the majority of the protests that boil down to wanting something for nothing, are not founded on reasonable or constructive criticism, and they are treated as such. Those that simply come into it as not understanding are given the information to better grasp it, and I've always tried to be polite when that has come up. It typically ends there unless that lack of understanding turns into willful, vocal denial.
It's funny, I entered this thread with the same assumption about lack of understanding from the other side. I don't think it's an issue of lack of understanding. Even if there exists a lack of understanding in some individuals, more understanding doesn't remove the need to protest. Knowing why a situation is sucky doesn't remove the want to protest it.
I don't know what your side's motive or intent is for counter-protesting. I didn't mean to impose one on you by describing you as circling sharks.
Edit: Trying not to get sucked into the same argument again, I don't hear people wanting something for nothing. They don't want 2 very very similar somethings for 2 full prices. Maybe you haven't read all 26 pages for which I wouldn't blame you. See, you saying that tempts me into calling lack of understanding too.
Well, it's two similar somethings in the terms of "I already own the VHS, why should I have to pay for the Blu-Ray too?" You get a lot more benefit than just the same thing you already had.
It's understandable to assume an ulterior motive, i.e. "circling around like sharks," but honestly I'm sure most people who comment here are like me, and only come back because there's a little notifier that someone's responded to a thread we follow (which is automatically anything we respond to) and eh, since we're already here. After all, I'm only here now because I'm on lunch and happened to notice that notification just as I wrapped up creating a combative NPC for my group next session.
Nobody here has any intent of attacking anyone, I'm sure, but I can understand if those of us who have heard the same protests before come across as short the more it comes up. At the end of the day, the majority of the protests that boil down to wanting something for nothing, are not founded on reasonable or constructive criticism, and they are treated as such. Those that simply come into it as not understanding are given the information to better grasp it, and I've always tried to be polite when that has come up. It typically ends there unless that lack of understanding turns into willful, vocal denial.
This is a crock of brown stuff. From reading ALL the posts this thread, I see the same shark circling as there was on ENworld when I was there. Maybe not as much yet for me, as my previous post was my first here, but the tone is the same. If anyone is in denial, it's you and maybe a few others here. With respect, I don't find you polite at all. Your tone is condescending, we understand things just fine and your "information to better grasp it" is not needed. If you think paying twice for something is okay, maybe you are the one that doesn't understand or grasp our gripes.
Again, I could care less about an online toolset. I just wanted a file (like a PDF) that I could access offline of the stuff I already purchased (again like other companies do). WotC could easily make that available like they did with the older products like D&D classics. Instead, they chose to go with an outside source and bundle it into a toolset to get a percentage of a second sale. Some might like the online toolset, there's a use for that too. Maybe a set price or an ongoing subscription for the toolset as an app might have been a better choice, but how would WotC make money on that beyond the initial licensing fee to the software developer.
The bottom line is that I have disposable income to spend on RPG habits, I never expected anything for free. But, I won't continue to support WotC until they join the modern world as far as tabletop RPGs go. Other companies have better bang for the buck (some even with better writers to boot), so that's what I'm currently playing. I bought 5th addition as a curiosity, I wouldn't mind testing it out one day if things change.
This is a public forum, it's my opinions, and I posted it without insulting anyone in my previous post. If you didn't understand my points, asking me straight out is always a better choice.
Edit: Trying not to get sucked into the same argument again, I don't hear people wanting something for nothing. They don't want 2 very very similar somethings for 2 full prices. Maybe you haven't read all 26 pages for which I wouldn't blame you. See, you saying that tempts me into calling lack of understanding too.
Again, I could care less about an online toolset. I just wanted a file (like a PDF) that I could access offline of the stuff I already purchased (again like other companies do).
Then this is probably not the site for you. This site is first and foremost a digital toolset. It is a largely online service. There are no PDFs. It is possible to download compendium information for offline reading through the app into a digital device like a smartsphone. That's the best this site offers. It will not change, DND Beyond have absolutely zero control in this regard. It's a policy of WotC.
In order to provide you with PHB, DMG etc data D&D Beyond issues a license to you. When they do, they are required to pay WotC and so, to get that cost back and make profit to stay in business they charge you. This will not ever change, it is a necessary fact of how this works.
I fully understand the need to protest about this WotC policy of not allowing PDFs but protesting to D&D Beyond or on D&D Beyond forums isn't going to do anything. D&D Beyond cannot change the policy and so all you will do is ignite arguments, incite hostility and invite negativity which will be followed with thread closure and bans. If you are incensed by this policy set by WotC go take it to them.
I would also like to point out that if you have the physical books then you absolutely CAN use them on this site for absolutely FREE. You just need to homebrew it first AND anyone in your campaign will get access to your recreated homebrew as well. The Basic Rules are available on this site for free and can be downloaded to smartphones etc for offline use. The only difference between the free basic rules and the PHB are extra spells and feats and subclass options all of which can be homebrewed for free for your players to use. So, I fail to see the point of your complaint and it has no relevance here anyway because your complaint is actually with a WotC policy that D&D Beyond cannot do anything about.
I've always viewed it as two separate entities, the books and D&D Beyond.
The books are a physical purchase. You are buying an asset that you can keep, store, and touch as you see fit.
D&D Beyond is a luxury. Digital convenience when you pay an access fee to use for the lifetime of the site/servers/bandwidth hosting it.
One really can't make the argument of "having to pay twice," as many users who haven't owned any of the content, have come to D&D Beyond and paid once. They love the digital medium for their source book purchase and the convenience it offers. Will they have dusty tomes on their bookshelves in 30 years to share with their children? Maybe not.
Those who have already purchased books don't have to pay twice at all either. They have the books, they're free to play as they have been, and leave it at that. The real problem is that they also see the luxury and convenience of D&D Beyond and are frustrated over the cost with having already spent that value on a (maybe now undesired) book format.
Sure, everyone will have their own spin, thoughts, and opinions in regards to this matter. What remains constant though is the business model of D&D Beyond and practices/procedures of WOTC. It's much easier to overview the offerings as they are and plot your own position on the matter. If D&D Beyond remains enticing to you, great! If it's just too much, that's OK too. What isn't OK is ramping up long-winded rants and attacking each other on our forums. The moderators have seen quite a bit of this over the past year and it's really been enough. There's nothing further to be accomplished with the topic - policies aren't being rewritten - so lets try to focus on plotting our own positions and moving forward accordingly.
I'm not interested in an unnecessary online debate, so I'm not going to respond to everything stated. If there is something I said that came across as rude or impolite, I honestly do apologize for that is not my intent. I apologize completely for bringing up a 'lack of understanding.' It is typical of people from different sides of an argument to assume that the opposing side is the one that does not understand. Maybe I fell into that trap, though I certainly didn't intend to insult, but either way it was unnecessary to say.
Kreakdude, you said you don't understand what the other side's motive or intent is, so let me just try to word my own position. I can't speak for anyone else.
Wizards of the Coast provides a product, and for the purposes of this I'm just going to talk about the Player's Handbook. That product includes the cost of development and production, plus whatever the company is looking for as profit as well as whatever vendor may have been selling that product for on their behalf. The product in this case is the book, and nothing else. There's a lot of reasons why people would prefer to get that product, whether it's simply a preference of physical over digital, or to support their local store, or to fulfill a collector's interest, or maybe it's just the first thing you see or find if you look to get involved.
D&D Beyond provides a separate product, and are licensed to do so by Wizards of the Coast. That product uses the Player's Handbook as its base, contains its contents, but the book is not the product. The product is the content of that book for use with online tools and offline mobile compendium. The tools are the product being paid for. That product includes the costs of development, maintenance and enhancements. WotC gets their share of the profits, as well as . . . what is it, Curse/Amazon? Just like WotC and the local store the physical book was bought in shared the profits between them, in whatever way the the entities involved have agreed upon.
Those two products are not the same, and between the two, D&D Beyond's is cheaper and has more utility. Getting one and not having access to the other, whether for free or at discount, makes no sense to me as a cause for protest. How similar the two products are does not matter, they are not the same. It also does not matter if you have already purchased the physical product, and it should not matter. If someone already has purchased the physical products, and wants the D&D Beyond product, but doesn't want to pay for or pay as much for those products, well I don't blame them. I wouldn't either, and I'd have to really consider if it was worthwhile for me to do so. But if I chose not to, or if I have no choice because of budgetary concerns, I would not protest that issue. The only one I would have a protest against would be myself.
Yes, it would be really convenient for DDB and WotC if the problem just went away without having to fix it.
I don't see why the concept is so difficult. You buy a feat for $1.99. You then buy the PHB containing the feat for w/e it is now $29.99 - $1.99 for that feat because you don't pay for it twice. The principle is a principle DDB believe in. I know people are going to say how that comparison is different, but it's really not. It's not different from many users' perspectives. It's one thing to say "We acknowledge the situation and would like to improve it, however WotC won't let us." and another to say "What problem? There is no problem [waves jedi hand]. Now go buy it again."
I think the original goal of this thread was to educate people on the situation to explain to them why they aren't "paying for things twice" or even maybe explain why they have to pay for things twice. And if they just understood then they'd be fixed, somehow not dissatisfied and the problem would go away. I don't know about anyone else, but despite consuming this entire thread I am still dissatisfied with the situation. As long as voices aren't being quieted about it, there is still hope that someday things will be better. Maybe it won't be until 6th edition or until WotC sells the franchise to someone else or something, but imo it should remain to be a known issue and area of needs improvement.
You buy a feat for $1.99. You then buy the PHB containing the feat for w/e it is now $29.99 - $1.99 for that feat because you don't pay for it twice. The principle is a principle DDB believe in. I know people are going to say how that comparison is different, but it's really not. It's not different from many users' perspectives. It's one thing to say "We acknowledge the situation and would like to improve it, however WotC won't let us." and another to say "What problem? There is no problem [waves jedi hand]. Now go buy it again."
It's the quote "go buy it again" and that you think that feat example is a comparable situation that I just do not get. It presumes that you have bought Product X, and are now being made to buy Product X again. If that is what D&D Beyond is, then don't buy it. Because if you have the Player's Handbook, and you feel that D&D Beyond's Player's Handbook is absolutely no different, then there is no value in getting it as well.
I get that you are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs, but what else do you want them to do that they are not already doing, as Cyb3rM1nd has pointed out multiple times?
Why are we even calling out WotC for industry-standard behavior that is not new to them or nearly any other RPG developer? Because the only other time I see an RPG developer do what is being asked here is when it's part of a Kickstarter campaign they are desperate to ensure passes, and then the practice is abandoned the moment they've succeeded. Many will even confide about how much they regret what they allowed to be purchased through the Kickstarter because of the poor position it puts them in further down the line.
And if there is value to ensuring your voice and others "aren't being quieted" to remain visible to both WotC and D&D Beyond by repeating the argument, is there not an equal value to there being voices in opposition to show a more accurate representation of the community as a whole? I'd argue that there isn't in either case, because if they were thinking of making a decision along those lines, they wouldn't be looking at online boards.
Edit: We both have said our pieces, and neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm stepping away from the conversation for now.
It's not product X and product X. Seriously you just gotta read the 26 pages before going into that stuff again. It's product (x+y) and product (x+z) where x is the content, y is the physical distribution and z is the digital benefits. If you have (x+y) and you want z you have to buy (x+z) together. As for the feat example, that's product (x + z) and product (x + y + z) where x is the fea, y is the the PHB minus the feat and z is the digital benefits. You could leave out z because it didn't change. That's why the "just don't buy it" is irrelevant.
EDIT: But yeah if you don't see it that way naturally, and you don't get annoyed by that naturally, I don't expect my explanations to suddenly make you get annoyed by it.
Your "X is the content" model seems reasonable, but I think the disconnect a lot of people are having is thinking that X is the whole of the product and that Y and Z have little to no individual value themselves. Well, more particularly Z, as I think most people get that a real book costs money.
So what this whole thread is really about is debating the value of Z. I happen to personally believe that Z has its own value distinguishable from Y, as I have attempted to enter homebrew material and decided that it was worth the money more than it was worth the time it takes to do it. If someone else sees no added value in Z, that is their right as a consumer, but DDB has stated several times that they have no intention of creating another product to distribute X. Z is DDB, so if you don't like Z, you don't like DDB. You can wait around for DDB to make another letter, but since Z is still a massive work in progress, I have a feeling that you'll be waiting for quite a while.
Well then, Kreakdude, consider you are not buying the content at all. If you buy the physical PHB, you are paying for the Covers, the paper, the printing and distribution costs. If you buy from D&D Beyond, you are not paying for the content, you're paying for the labour that went into coding the site, and all other overhead of the business.
You got the content for free. No one is asking for you to pay for it twice.
I see you pop in from time to time to complain about the same thing. It's not going to change. There is no incentive for it to change. Whether you accept it or not, they are two different products; one is a book, the other is a web site. The content is irrelevant.
Now make with your counter-arguments, I'm bored and want need something to do. And for the record, I've been a part of this debate from the very beginning, as I'm sure you know if you've read all 26 pages.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
If you have purchased the books you can download them directly to your devices through the D&D Beyond app. The app is still in development so more features are coming, but what you describe here is already part and parcel of DDB. I have many of the books added on there, and I love using them for prep on long car trips or airplane rides.
i have all hard cover book up to MToF can you stat that you still need to pay money and price for digital copy. i am Assuming you can not down load a digital copy without paying some money if you want both hard cover and digital. on a side note i like to buy my D&D books from my local shop to keep them open and not relying on buying it online i am assuming digital is only online from this side or D&D side or other digital sites
You are correct. If you want the digital copy, you must purchase it separately. You can purchase a digital copy here at DDB to use their tools, or Roll20/FantasyGrounds to utilize their tools. Each is a separate entity/licencor, purchases are not transferable between them.
The only exception to this is if you get the Premium edition of Dragon Heist which includes miniatures, maps, hand-outs and other accouterments ($500.00), which also comes with a code that can be redeemed on DDB for a digital edition.
That's a perfectly acceptable argument to be made for purchasing physical copies over DDB, if you're going to choose just the one. D&D for the past ten years has been all about the growth of community, whether online or local. Your local shop is the hub of the local community, and deserves the support.
For myself, the community I am a part of is online. My area hasn't had the best luck with local stores. Each of the two stores foster more of the cheeto-fingered, "magical realm" type of player, and one was even closed down after the owner was arrested for bank robbery.
That said, I started DMing this year. I like to think that maybe I can return to my remaining local store, help . . . broaden the community a bit.
I observe two goals of this thread. One is to come here with grievances about the topic to find like-minded individuals and to protest the way things are and hope for change. The other is to protest the first goal by circling around like sharks as protesters from group one trickle in one by one and group attack them, and at the same time, scare away anyone else from voicing their protest.
It's understandable to assume an ulterior motive, i.e. "circling around like sharks," but honestly I'm sure most people who comment here are like me, and only come back because there's a little notifier that someone's responded to a thread we follow (which is automatically anything we respond to) and eh, since we're already here. After all, I'm only here now because I'm on lunch and happened to notice that notification just as I wrapped up creating a combative NPC for my group next session.
Nobody here has any intent of attacking anyone, I'm sure, but I can understand if those of us who have heard the same protests before come across as short the more it comes up. At the end of the day, the majority of the protests that boil down to wanting something for nothing, are not founded on reasonable or constructive criticism, and they are treated as such. Those that simply come into it as not understanding are given the information to better grasp it, and I've always tried to be polite when that has come up. It typically ends there unless that lack of understanding turns into willful, vocal denial.
It's funny, I entered this thread with the same assumption about lack of understanding from the other side. I don't think it's an issue of lack of understanding. Even if there exists a lack of understanding in some individuals, more understanding doesn't remove the need to protest. Knowing why a situation is sucky doesn't remove the want to protest it.
I don't know what your side's motive or intent is for counter-protesting. I didn't mean to impose one on you by describing you as circling sharks.
Edit: Trying not to get sucked into the same argument again, I don't hear people wanting something for nothing. They don't want 2 very very similar somethings for 2 full prices. Maybe you haven't read all 26 pages for which I wouldn't blame you. See, you saying that tempts me into calling lack of understanding too.
Well, it's two similar somethings in the terms of "I already own the VHS, why should I have to pay for the Blu-Ray too?" You get a lot more benefit than just the same thing you already had.
This is a crock of brown stuff. From reading ALL the posts this thread, I see the same shark circling as there was on ENworld when I was there. Maybe not as much yet for me, as my previous post was my first here, but the tone is the same. If anyone is in denial, it's you and maybe a few others here. With respect, I don't find you polite at all. Your tone is condescending, we understand things just fine and your "information to better grasp it" is not needed. If you think paying twice for something is okay, maybe you are the one that doesn't understand or grasp our gripes.
Again, I could care less about an online toolset. I just wanted a file (like a PDF) that I could access offline of the stuff I already purchased (again like other companies do). WotC could easily make that available like they did with the older products like D&D classics. Instead, they chose to go with an outside source and bundle it into a toolset to get a percentage of a second sale. Some might like the online toolset, there's a use for that too. Maybe a set price or an ongoing subscription for the toolset as an app might have been a better choice, but how would WotC make money on that beyond the initial licensing fee to the software developer.
The bottom line is that I have disposable income to spend on RPG habits, I never expected anything for free. But, I won't continue to support WotC until they join the modern world as far as tabletop RPGs go. Other companies have better bang for the buck (some even with better writers to boot), so that's what I'm currently playing. I bought 5th addition as a curiosity, I wouldn't mind testing it out one day if things change.
This is a public forum, it's my opinions, and I posted it without insulting anyone in my previous post. If you didn't understand my points, asking me straight out is always a better choice.
Agreed.
Then this is probably not the site for you. This site is first and foremost a digital toolset. It is a largely online service. There are no PDFs. It is possible to download compendium information for offline reading through the app into a digital device like a smartsphone. That's the best this site offers. It will not change, DND Beyond have absolutely zero control in this regard. It's a policy of WotC.
In order to provide you with PHB, DMG etc data D&D Beyond issues a license to you. When they do, they are required to pay WotC and so, to get that cost back and make profit to stay in business they charge you. This will not ever change, it is a necessary fact of how this works.
I fully understand the need to protest about this WotC policy of not allowing PDFs but protesting to D&D Beyond or on D&D Beyond forums isn't going to do anything. D&D Beyond cannot change the policy and so all you will do is ignite arguments, incite hostility and invite negativity which will be followed with thread closure and bans. If you are incensed by this policy set by WotC go take it to them.
I would also like to point out that if you have the physical books then you absolutely CAN use them on this site for absolutely FREE. You just need to homebrew it first AND anyone in your campaign will get access to your recreated homebrew as well. The Basic Rules are available on this site for free and can be downloaded to smartphones etc for offline use. The only difference between the free basic rules and the PHB are extra spells and feats and subclass options all of which can be homebrewed for free for your players to use. So, I fail to see the point of your complaint and it has no relevance here anyway because your complaint is actually with a WotC policy that D&D Beyond cannot do anything about.
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I've always viewed it as two separate entities, the books and D&D Beyond.
One really can't make the argument of "having to pay twice," as many users who haven't owned any of the content, have come to D&D Beyond and paid once. They love the digital medium for their source book purchase and the convenience it offers. Will they have dusty tomes on their bookshelves in 30 years to share with their children? Maybe not.
Those who have already purchased books don't have to pay twice at all either. They have the books, they're free to play as they have been, and leave it at that. The real problem is that they also see the luxury and convenience of D&D Beyond and are frustrated over the cost with having already spent that value on a (maybe now undesired) book format.
Sure, everyone will have their own spin, thoughts, and opinions in regards to this matter. What remains constant though is the business model of D&D Beyond and practices/procedures of WOTC. It's much easier to overview the offerings as they are and plot your own position on the matter. If D&D Beyond remains enticing to you, great! If it's just too much, that's OK too. What isn't OK is ramping up long-winded rants and attacking each other on our forums. The moderators have seen quite a bit of this over the past year and it's really been enough. There's nothing further to be accomplished with the topic - policies aren't being rewritten - so lets try to focus on plotting our own positions and moving forward accordingly.
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I'm not interested in an unnecessary online debate, so I'm not going to respond to everything stated. If there is something I said that came across as rude or impolite, I honestly do apologize for that is not my intent. I apologize completely for bringing up a 'lack of understanding.' It is typical of people from different sides of an argument to assume that the opposing side is the one that does not understand. Maybe I fell into that trap, though I certainly didn't intend to insult, but either way it was unnecessary to say.
Kreakdude, you said you don't understand what the other side's motive or intent is, so let me just try to word my own position. I can't speak for anyone else.
Wizards of the Coast provides a product, and for the purposes of this I'm just going to talk about the Player's Handbook. That product includes the cost of development and production, plus whatever the company is looking for as profit as well as whatever vendor may have been selling that product for on their behalf. The product in this case is the book, and nothing else. There's a lot of reasons why people would prefer to get that product, whether it's simply a preference of physical over digital, or to support their local store, or to fulfill a collector's interest, or maybe it's just the first thing you see or find if you look to get involved.
D&D Beyond provides a separate product, and are licensed to do so by Wizards of the Coast. That product uses the Player's Handbook as its base, contains its contents, but the book is not the product. The product is the content of that book for use with online tools and offline mobile compendium. The tools are the product being paid for. That product includes the costs of development, maintenance and enhancements. WotC gets their share of the profits, as well as . . . what is it, Curse/Amazon? Just like WotC and the local store the physical book was bought in shared the profits between them, in whatever way the the entities involved have agreed upon.
Those two products are not the same, and between the two, D&D Beyond's is cheaper and has more utility. Getting one and not having access to the other, whether for free or at discount, makes no sense to me as a cause for protest. How similar the two products are does not matter, they are not the same. It also does not matter if you have already purchased the physical product, and it should not matter. If someone already has purchased the physical products, and wants the D&D Beyond product, but doesn't want to pay for or pay as much for those products, well I don't blame them. I wouldn't either, and I'd have to really consider if it was worthwhile for me to do so. But if I chose not to, or if I have no choice because of budgetary concerns, I would not protest that issue. The only one I would have a protest against would be myself.
Yes, it would be really convenient for DDB and WotC if the problem just went away without having to fix it.
I don't see why the concept is so difficult. You buy a feat for $1.99. You then buy the PHB containing the feat for w/e it is now $29.99 - $1.99 for that feat because you don't pay for it twice. The principle is a principle DDB believe in. I know people are going to say how that comparison is different, but it's really not. It's not different from many users' perspectives. It's one thing to say "We acknowledge the situation and would like to improve it, however WotC won't let us." and another to say "What problem? There is no problem [waves jedi hand]. Now go buy it again."
I think the original goal of this thread was to educate people on the situation to explain to them why they aren't "paying for things twice" or even maybe explain why they have to pay for things twice. And if they just understood then they'd be fixed, somehow not dissatisfied and the problem would go away. I don't know about anyone else, but despite consuming this entire thread I am still dissatisfied with the situation. As long as voices aren't being quieted about it, there is still hope that someday things will be better. Maybe it won't be until 6th edition or until WotC sells the franchise to someone else or something, but imo it should remain to be a known issue and area of needs improvement.
If you have the physical books and info why not just homebrew what you need and use that? It's free. I don't understand why people just don't do that?
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
It's the quote "go buy it again" and that you think that feat example is a comparable situation that I just do not get. It presumes that you have bought Product X, and are now being made to buy Product X again. If that is what D&D Beyond is, then don't buy it. Because if you have the Player's Handbook, and you feel that D&D Beyond's Player's Handbook is absolutely no different, then there is no value in getting it as well.
I get that you are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs, but what else do you want them to do that they are not already doing, as Cyb3rM1nd has pointed out multiple times?
Why are we even calling out WotC for industry-standard behavior that is not new to them or nearly any other RPG developer? Because the only other time I see an RPG developer do what is being asked here is when it's part of a Kickstarter campaign they are desperate to ensure passes, and then the practice is abandoned the moment they've succeeded. Many will even confide about how much they regret what they allowed to be purchased through the Kickstarter because of the poor position it puts them in further down the line.
And if there is value to ensuring your voice and others "aren't being quieted" to remain visible to both WotC and D&D Beyond by repeating the argument, is there not an equal value to there being voices in opposition to show a more accurate representation of the community as a whole? I'd argue that there isn't in either case, because if they were thinking of making a decision along those lines, they wouldn't be looking at online boards.
Edit: We both have said our pieces, and neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm stepping away from the conversation for now.
It's not product X and product X. Seriously you just gotta read the 26 pages before going into that stuff again. It's product (x+y) and product (x+z) where x is the content, y is the physical distribution and z is the digital benefits. If you have (x+y) and you want z you have to buy (x+z) together. As for the feat example, that's product (x + z) and product (x + y + z) where x is the fea, y is the the PHB minus the feat and z is the digital benefits. You could leave out z because it didn't change. That's why the "just don't buy it" is irrelevant.
EDIT: But yeah if you don't see it that way naturally, and you don't get annoyed by that naturally, I don't expect my explanations to suddenly make you get annoyed by it.
Your "X is the content" model seems reasonable, but I think the disconnect a lot of people are having is thinking that X is the whole of the product and that Y and Z have little to no individual value themselves. Well, more particularly Z, as I think most people get that a real book costs money.
So what this whole thread is really about is debating the value of Z. I happen to personally believe that Z has its own value distinguishable from Y, as I have attempted to enter homebrew material and decided that it was worth the money more than it was worth the time it takes to do it. If someone else sees no added value in Z, that is their right as a consumer, but DDB has stated several times that they have no intention of creating another product to distribute X. Z is DDB, so if you don't like Z, you don't like DDB. You can wait around for DDB to make another letter, but since Z is still a massive work in progress, I have a feeling that you'll be waiting for quite a while.
Well then, Kreakdude, consider you are not buying the content at all. If you buy the physical PHB, you are paying for the Covers, the paper, the printing and distribution costs. If you buy from D&D Beyond, you are not paying for the content, you're paying for the labour that went into coding the site, and all other overhead of the business.
You got the content for free. No one is asking for you to pay for it twice.
I see you pop in from time to time to complain about the same thing. It's not going to change. There is no incentive for it to change. Whether you accept it or not, they are two different products; one is a book, the other is a web site. The content is irrelevant.
Now make with your counter-arguments, I'm bored and want need something to do. And for the record, I've been a part of this debate from the very beginning, as I'm sure you know if you've read all 26 pages.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Why is no one arguing on behalf of the poor DDB-first people who decide later that they want a nice physical book to display on their shelf?
Aren't they the same thing?