when I buy a CD, I can upload it to itunes for personal use and not be required to purchase another copy to listen online
The music does not need to be altered and crafted into a different format. You can also get a scanner, and sit there and scan your physical book into your computer to give yourself a PDF copy. DDB is a completely new format for the content, including the ability to have the content from the books implemented directly into a character sheet. This is a false equivalence.
when I buy a CD, I can upload it to itunes for personal use and not be required to purchase another copy to listen online
The music does not need to be altered and crafted into a different format. You can also get a scanner, and sit there and scan your physical book into your computer to give yourself a PDF copy. DDB is a completely new format for the content, including the ability to have the content from the books implemented directly into a character sheet. This is a false equivalence.
It may not be as false of an equivalence as you claim. The song may change format from .mp3 to .aac. I think what you may mean is that it doesn't change composition, like the song's intro, verse, chorus are all in the same order. Otherwise it seems like a good equivalence to me. Having the song in iTunes gives you a set of new features such as online play, porting to your phone, playlists, GUI, etc similar to the Character Sheet giving the PHB more features.
when I buy a CD, I can upload it to itunes for personal use and not be required to purchase another copy to listen online
The music does not need to be altered and crafted into a different format. You can also get a scanner, and sit there and scan your physical book into your computer to give yourself a PDF copy. DDB is a completely new format for the content, including the ability to have the content from the books implemented directly into a character sheet. This is a false equivalence.
It may not be as false of an equivalence as you claim. The song may change format from .mp3 to .aac. I think what you may mean is that it doesn't change composition, like the song's intro, verse, chorus are all in the same order. Otherwise it seems like a good equivalence to me. Having the song in iTunes gives you a set of new features such as online play, porting to your phone, playlists, GUI, etc similar to the Character Sheet giving the PHB more features.
Except that all of those functionalities are a part of the program, NOT a part of the content. The song itself isn't what gives you the functionality, the functionality exists that you can use to increase ways to use the song. The character sheet functionality is not there without the content, meaning the content is the functionality. So if you change how the content functions, you have a new product.
I personally feel that a much better way of looking at the situation is NOT using analogies.
As soon as an analogy is expressed, such as, "It's like movies/music/books on iTunes/Amazon/Wherever" then the discussion immediately moves to discussion of details of those analogies or expressing alternative analogies that each person feels are a closer fit to what they are experiencing or what they feel the D&D Beyond service should offer.
The Wizards of the Coast D&D product and the D&D Beyond product from Curse are none of these things and, whilst there may be similarities in business models, the analogies often confuse the issue.
I agree that it is a false equivalence. Any comparison can be shown to be imperfect. I said "as false" because it doesn't have to be binary. Although it's not a perfect similarity it can still be useful, but I also agree with Stormknight that those comparison conversations have proven to be non-productive on this thread.
It's understandable to have that original misconception of there being an overlap that wouldn't, or shouldn't, require paying more than once.
Once explained, it just comes down to whether or not it's worth it. Everyone will have different answers based on their needs and wants. I think those that continue to debate after it is explained don't want to make that difficult choice.
If the model worked the way you wanted it to (buy the physical books for and get DDB access for free), how would the staff at Curse/DDB get paid for all the work they do?
Are they not running subscription fees? If its a matter of budgeting that's not on the consumer, however the slight by the company is. I would happily pay a subscription if the books I have already purchased, with all those pretty published, and trademarked pictures; I have already invested in were...………………….perhaps...………………...available for use in the Dnd online universe. For a game established by bookworms, more entwinement with the printed is not a stretch of the imagination. Once the sheer cost factor is established it becomes comical. I have 9 5E hardback books. I got a few on Amazon at $20, the others ranged between $39-45 at my local game store. I'll say as a DM currently I have $300 as a low ball number in books alone. Now don't get me wrong. I own them because I enjoy them. I play weekly and have a large pool of friends who play. That's why its insulting. We support the game, buy the books, mods, mini's...… and here is that tool to tie those great things together gang!...…… Just repay 100% of the purchase price or...…….use the free locked trees and search features....
For the Nth time: as of today there is no way to validate ANY phisical copy of the books. There is NO single code associated with each individual copy. WotC is the only one that could include such a code in their books to then tie into a validation system here in DDB, but they do not seem to be interested in doing that.
And even if they did, ALL of you complaining would get NOTHING, because your copies do not have those codes, they were published before the whole system would be put into place and WotC or DDB would have no obligation (as they do not have now) to do anything on that regard.
There is effectively nothing that could validate your already purchased books, not now, not ever.
On the subscription topic: the subscription is not needed to access any of the tools of the site, it is merely a mean to have infinite character slots and sharing. The books themselves here are already discounted from the price WotC sells them for (which is the only price that can be considered the "normal one"), and with all the codes they put out you can get them even cheaper. A subscription-based content access deal works terribly, as WotC saw with 4th edition, and in the end it can cost way more to the users than a one-time purchase of the books one is really interested into.
Seems more like the online side of the industry was flagged under a different brand due to past lessons learned. This still doesn't change the fact your defending two companies selling the exact same product with a digital paywall separating them. After today I'm deleting my account. Regardless of the quality of the product, or presentation. I quite literally own the hard copies and have no need for this negativity.
It's not the exact same product. D&D Beyond is digital copies of the books plus a set of online tools that make building adventures and characters easier. If it was the exact same product, I could tap on the books and they would magically create a character for me. This is like complaining you have to shell out for a Blu-Ray copy of a movie when you already have the VHS.
Seems more like the online side of the industry was flagged under a different brand due to past lessons learned. This still doesn't change the fact your defending two companies selling the exact same product with a digital paywall separating them. After today I'm deleting my account. Regardless of the quality of the product, or presentation. I quite literally own the hard copies and have no need for this negativity.
If you already own the physical books and don't feel like the added functionality of DDB is worth your money, don't buy it. That's your right as a potential customer, but there's zero need for all this entitlement.
This debate has carried on through 48 pages on this thread, as well as numerous others. I understand - some may not like nor agree with the business model, and that's fine.
What are the remaining goals in this debate? The business model is established and a year old, the product team has expressed happiness with current results, and majority of the community is pleased with the offering.
Things don't appear they are likely to change and I'm not quite understanding the need to argue this any further. Again, it's been over a year - it's time to accept what this is and make our own choices to partake or not.
I guess the issue is if the mods would prefer to contain the discussion here, or just endlessly paste the same message and delete threads as more new people come in with similar questions. No matter how many people we explain this to, there will always be more new people.
This debate has carried on through 48 pages on this thread, as well as numerous others. I understand - some may not like nor agree with the business model, and that's fine.
What are the remaining goals in this debate? The business model is established and a year old, the product team has expressed happiness with current results, and majority of the community is pleased with the offering.
Things don't appear they are likely to change and I'm not quite understanding the need to argue this any further. Again, it's been over a year - it's time to accept what this is and make our own choices to partake or not.
I think it's just people who have only recently discovered DDB and want to vent their anger that they can't have everything for free. I've seen these new posts, and decided not to respond. Honestly, we would likely all be happier if we just ignored all these "Why do I have to pay twice" threads from now on. Maybe give them their own sub-forum, and none of us ever need go in there. ;-)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
This debate has carried on through 48 pages on this thread, as well as numerous others. I understand - some may not like nor agree with the business model, and that's fine.
What are the remaining goals in this debate? The business model is established and a year old, the product team has expressed happiness with current results, and majority of the community is pleased with the offering.
Things don't appear they are likely to change and I'm not quite understanding the need to argue this any further. Again, it's been over a year - it's time to accept what this is and make our own choices to partake or not.
I think it's just people who have only recently discovered DDB and want to vent their anger that they can't have everything for free. I've seen these new posts, and decided not to respond. Honestly, we would likely all be happier if we just ignored all these "Why do I have to pay twice" threads from now on. Maybe give them their own sub-forum, and none of us ever need go in there. ;-)
Ignorance is bliss if we just ignore them?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Other companies include digital copies of their books with a hardcopy purchase, some even give free added content in the form of web enhancements (shocking, I know ;)). This has also fostered brand loyalties too.
We can all agree that if D&D Beyond isn't part of WotC, they have to be licensed by WotC to use their products/logos. To think WotC isn't making money on every purchase made on this digital model is ridiculous. Since the days of the OGL in 3.0/3.5 edition, WotC has gone to great lengths to reign in their IP and try and control every aspect of it, including digital distribution. Some or most of which stem from a paranoid fear of piracy which is also understandable. It's also likely that the piracy issue is why we don't get PDFs, which are easy to distribute, though scanning a book and distributing it illegally wil happen regardless.
My point is... D&D Beyond is a win-win for WotC. Another company makes the online software so WotC doesn't have to, WotC double dips into your wallet by collecting a share of each digital purchase.
In this day and age, most people have devices like laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. Rather than dragging 50 pounds of books to each game, most people wouldn't mind having a digital copy. Not just an online toolset, but a copy they can read when not in WiFi range (like on a lunch break in an eatery with no free wifi, or on a long road trip for another example), or even at a game table in a place with shoddy internet or no internet whatsoever.
Though I own 11 products pertaining to D&D (10 official and one Critical Role campaign setting book, all store bought @ Barnes and Noble), I won't play it. I prefer running a game out of my laptop without having to log in. Most of my prep is done on my iPad while traveling too.
I've been playing since D&D Basic and I miss it, but I kind of regret my 5th edition purchases. I could have saved a few hundred bucks.
The music does not need to be altered and crafted into a different format. You can also get a scanner, and sit there and scan your physical book into your computer to give yourself a PDF copy. DDB is a completely new format for the content, including the ability to have the content from the books implemented directly into a character sheet. This is a false equivalence.
It may not be as false of an equivalence as you claim. The song may change format from .mp3 to .aac. I think what you may mean is that it doesn't change composition, like the song's intro, verse, chorus are all in the same order. Otherwise it seems like a good equivalence to me. Having the song in iTunes gives you a set of new features such as online play, porting to your phone, playlists, GUI, etc similar to the Character Sheet giving the PHB more features.
Except that all of those functionalities are a part of the program, NOT a part of the content. The song itself isn't what gives you the functionality, the functionality exists that you can use to increase ways to use the song. The character sheet functionality is not there without the content, meaning the content is the functionality. So if you change how the content functions, you have a new product.
It is a very firm false equivalence.
I personally feel that a much better way of looking at the situation is NOT using analogies.
As soon as an analogy is expressed, such as, "It's like movies/music/books on iTunes/Amazon/Wherever" then the discussion immediately moves to discussion of details of those analogies or expressing alternative analogies that each person feels are a closer fit to what they are experiencing or what they feel the D&D Beyond service should offer.
The Wizards of the Coast D&D product and the D&D Beyond product from Curse are none of these things and, whilst there may be similarities in business models, the analogies often confuse the issue.
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I agree that it is a false equivalence. Any comparison can be shown to be imperfect. I said "as false" because it doesn't have to be binary. Although it's not a perfect similarity it can still be useful, but I also agree with Stormknight that those comparison conversations have proven to be non-productive on this thread.
Got it , no analogies, pay again for content already in your possession cuz it is different but not changed
You're free to use that content, just input it onto the site as private homebrew.
Too much work you say? Well, why not pay for that work to be done for you by heading over to the marketplace page!
It's understandable to have that original misconception of there being an overlap that wouldn't, or shouldn't, require paying more than once.
Once explained, it just comes down to whether or not it's worth it. Everyone will have different answers based on their needs and wants. I think those that continue to debate after it is explained don't want to make that difficult choice.
I host a weekly game at the local game-shop of about 10 total players that rotate out. I own all of the current 5E books.
Beyond is wonderful...amazing...great....
You want me to pay 100% again less then a month after the last book arrived at my house. This is a university book-store tactic, and is insulting.
I would like to also mention I used to encourage my players to invest in the books and stop using third party and pirate PDFs.
This has really dampened my interest in all things Dnd, and I am certain I am one of many.
If the model worked the way you wanted it to (buy the physical books for and get DDB access for free), how would the staff at Curse/DDB get paid for all the work they do?
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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Are they not running subscription fees? If its a matter of budgeting that's not on the consumer, however the slight by the company is. I would happily pay a subscription if the books I have already purchased, with all those pretty published, and trademarked pictures; I have already invested in were...………………….perhaps...………………...available for use in the Dnd online universe. For a game established by bookworms, more entwinement with the printed is not a stretch of the imagination. Once the sheer cost factor is established it becomes comical. I have 9 5E hardback books. I got a few on Amazon at $20, the others ranged between $39-45 at my local game store. I'll say as a DM currently I have $300 as a low ball number in books alone.
Now don't get me wrong. I own them because I enjoy them. I play weekly and have a large pool of friends who play. That's why its insulting. We support the game, buy the books, mods, mini's...… and here is that tool to tie those great things together gang!...……
Just repay 100% of the purchase price or...…….use the free locked trees and search features....
For the Nth time: as of today there is no way to validate ANY phisical copy of the books. There is NO single code associated with each individual copy. WotC is the only one that could include such a code in their books to then tie into a validation system here in DDB, but they do not seem to be interested in doing that.
And even if they did, ALL of you complaining would get NOTHING, because your copies do not have those codes, they were published before the whole system would be put into place and WotC or DDB would have no obligation (as they do not have now) to do anything on that regard.
There is effectively nothing that could validate your already purchased books, not now, not ever.
On the subscription topic: the subscription is not needed to access any of the tools of the site, it is merely a mean to have infinite character slots and sharing. The books themselves here are already discounted from the price WotC sells them for (which is the only price that can be considered the "normal one"), and with all the codes they put out you can get them even cheaper. A subscription-based content access deal works terribly, as WotC saw with 4th edition, and in the end it can cost way more to the users than a one-time purchase of the books one is really interested into.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Seems more like the online side of the industry was flagged under a different brand due to past lessons learned. This still doesn't change the fact your defending two companies selling the exact same product with a digital paywall separating them. After today I'm deleting my account. Regardless of the quality of the product, or presentation. I quite literally own the hard copies and have no need for this negativity.
It's not the exact same product. D&D Beyond is digital copies of the books plus a set of online tools that make building adventures and characters easier. If it was the exact same product, I could tap on the books and they would magically create a character for me. This is like complaining you have to shell out for a Blu-Ray copy of a movie when you already have the VHS.
If you already own the physical books and don't feel like the added functionality of DDB is worth your money, don't buy it. That's your right as a potential customer, but there's zero need for all this entitlement.
This debate has carried on through 48 pages on this thread, as well as numerous others. I understand - some may not like nor agree with the business model, and that's fine.
What are the remaining goals in this debate? The business model is established and a year old, the product team has expressed happiness with current results, and majority of the community is pleased with the offering.
Things don't appear they are likely to change and I'm not quite understanding the need to argue this any further. Again, it's been over a year - it's time to accept what this is and make our own choices to partake or not.
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I guess the issue is if the mods would prefer to contain the discussion here, or just endlessly paste the same message and delete threads as more new people come in with similar questions. No matter how many people we explain this to, there will always be more new people.
I think it's just people who have only recently discovered DDB and want to vent their anger that they can't have everything for free. I've seen these new posts, and decided not to respond. Honestly, we would likely all be happier if we just ignored all these "Why do I have to pay twice" threads from now on. Maybe give them their own sub-forum, and none of us ever need go in there. ;-)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Ignorance is bliss if we just ignore them?
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Other companies include digital copies of their books with a hardcopy purchase, some even give free added content in the form of web enhancements (shocking, I know ;)). This has also fostered brand loyalties too.
We can all agree that if D&D Beyond isn't part of WotC, they have to be licensed by WotC to use their products/logos. To think WotC isn't making money on every purchase made on this digital model is ridiculous. Since the days of the OGL in 3.0/3.5 edition, WotC has gone to great lengths to reign in their IP and try and control every aspect of it, including digital distribution. Some or most of which stem from a paranoid fear of piracy which is also understandable. It's also likely that the piracy issue is why we don't get PDFs, which are easy to distribute, though scanning a book and distributing it illegally wil happen regardless.
My point is... D&D Beyond is a win-win for WotC. Another company makes the online software so WotC doesn't have to, WotC double dips into your wallet by collecting a share of each digital purchase.
In this day and age, most people have devices like laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. Rather than dragging 50 pounds of books to each game, most people wouldn't mind having a digital copy. Not just an online toolset, but a copy they can read when not in WiFi range (like on a lunch break in an eatery with no free wifi, or on a long road trip for another example), or even at a game table in a place with shoddy internet or no internet whatsoever.
Though I own 11 products pertaining to D&D (10 official and one Critical Role campaign setting book, all store bought @ Barnes and Noble), I won't play it. I prefer running a game out of my laptop without having to log in. Most of my prep is done on my iPad while traveling too.
I've been playing since D&D Basic and I miss it, but I kind of regret my 5th edition purchases. I could have saved a few hundred bucks.
YMMV