It's a "hey I love this product, will you please make the part where I give you my money for it not suck please? Thanks."
I think the point of confusion is that the word "you" in that quote actually is not actually one company; it is many companies.
There is the publisher (WOTC) and a number of retailers (Curse, gaming and book stores online and offline).
What I am seeing in this thread is confusion between "I paid WOTC for a product (a physical book) therefore WOTC should give me another product (a digital book) for no extra money." and "I paid one retailer (FLGS, Amazon.com, etc) for a product therefore a different retailer (Curse) should give me a product for no extra money."
It's a "hey I love this product, will you please make the part where I give you my money for it not suck please? Thanks."
I think the point of confusion is that the word "you" in that quote actually is not actually one company; it is many companies.
There is the publisher (WOTC) and a number of retailers (Curse, gaming and book stores online and offline).
What I am seeing in this thread is confusion between "I paid WOTC for a product (a physical book) therefore WOTC should give me another product (a digital book) for no extra money." and "I paid one retailer (FLGS, Amazon.com, etc) for a product therefore a different retailer (Curse) should give me a product for no extra money."
It's back to the sausage. The confusion is a natural result of having a complex infrastructure resulting in a poor buying experience. Complex Infrastructure > confusion & overpriced > poor buying experience. To be clear, the sausage isn't DDB, d&d 5e, wotc, none of that. The sausage is the buying experience. The fact that I'm supposed to say y'all in my quoted post in order to not cause confusion is the problem. Y'all is not in my vernacular.
@Kreakdude, I've been watching this thread (kind of hoping it'll go away, kind of going out for more popcorn) and you're starting to come across as quite unreasonable in this matter. And the goal posts do seem to keep shifting.
Here's the bottom line: given that Curse and WOTC are different companies (as you know), you're demanding of WOTC what no other company does.
What you're asking for is the equivalent of being able to buy a book in Barnes and Noble and get a discount for the Amazon Kindle version. A publisher could work something out, but no one does it. Same with movies - you might get a digital download with the Bluray, but you can't get it from iTunes (which is where I want it, I don't want to have to fritz around with more technology). Of course, it can be done, but no one does it or is going to do it. What we have instead are lower prices on digital books (presumably because of economies gained through digitisation). It might not be the business model you prefer, but it is, arguably, a much better one because it's simpler, especially for the average person. It's also delivered lower prices. In the case of DDB, when you consider that you can buy a book like the PHB for $20, or the book and tools for $30, the value really does go through the roof. Customers get lower prices, the publisher still gets to make a profit, the platform is sustainable.
Sure, DDB's branding may be a little confusing because they use the ampersand, but most people get it once it's explained to them. And frankly, good on Curse, it's a marketing coup for them.
I don't think what you want is unreasonable, per se, just that your flogging a dead horse and none of three of the main players in this conversation are willing to let someone else have the last word!
Ooh ooh, can’t wait for the rebuttal from someone <eye roll>
Seriously, I’m all for good discussion on the forums, but this thread is the true definition of insanity...saying the same thing hoping for a different response. Sometimes it’s entertaining to see whose on the soap box today and getting baited into another rant. Most of the time it’s just tiresome after seeing 36 pages/721 posts of the same arguments wrapped up in different packaging.
Ooh ooh, can’t wait for the rebuttal from someone <eye roll>
Seriously, I’m all for good discussion on the forums, but this thread is the true definition of insanity...saying the same thing hoping for a different response. Sometimes it’s entertaining to see whose on the soap box today and getting baited into another rant. Most of the time it’s just tiresome after seeing 36 pages/721 posts of the same arguments wrapped up in different packaging.
Yes, I know. I got sucked in. I've been trying to be good, but this thread is a bit like watching a car crash. Horrendous but you can't turn away.
I see this as a guy bought a Ford Mustang brand new and it doesn't work right, but the Chevy Dealer won't fix it for free, even though they sale a Camaro.
What I am seeing in this thread is confusion between "I paid WOTC for a product (a physical book) therefore WOTC should give me another product (a digital book) for no extra money." and "I paid one retailer (FLGS, Amazon.com, etc) for a product therefore a different retailer (Curse) should give me a product for no extra money."
Whoa! Wait a minute, hold up there. A slight correction to this. And this IS where some of the confusion is. You did not pay WOTC anything. You purchased a book from a retailer/distributor. they are the ones who paid WOTC (or more specifically, probably a bigger distributor who in turn pays WOTC). So while some of your dollars may end up there, that book was already purchased by the store/retailer/distro before you even got it.
It should be stated, "I paid a retailer for a WOTC Licensed product therefore a different retailer should give me another WOTC Licensed product (a digital book) for no extra money."
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
At this point you guys are just being mean bullies again. Either that or you're totally ignorant and cannot learn a thing, like talking to a mocking bird. Or maybe just trolling? You guys know very well I've been advocating for a content purchased registry this whole time, not asking for anything for free. That's why not don't even.
End user love of the product has everything to do with their business model. It's not about contractual obligation. It's about giving users a good buying experience. Sure it's a take it or leave it situation in the short run, but in the long run there's a hope and push for a better buying experience or not hope. I've chosen to hope and be vocal about it. I'm trying to change D&D for the better, you're trying to change me ...
1. Calling us ignorant (and vice versa) will get us no where and is a violation of the terms of this board. So lets skip the insults please. i do not believe i have ever called you such. if I have, i apologize.
2. The problem with the content purchased registry is that it was created by a vendor/retailer/distributor whatever you want to call DDB. It was not created by WOTC and being that they are solely a publisher/manufacturer, they have no need or want to have such a thing. The main reason is cost. Plus the burden placed on every small B&M retailer out there. lets sit back and see what you are really asking for with this:
First, we need a database to track this and what info goes in there. We would need a unique ID for each and every individual and for each product and for each transaction…that is a lot of space/maintenance/hardware/labor (programmers & Server managers, no they cannot always be the same person no matter how much you would like it to be and you will need several of each to keep this running 24/7). Who foots this bill, according to you , WOTC because they should be the ones to have this. In turn, they will have to raise the cost of books.
Second, who is going to input all this data? From the small B&M guys that are sitting behind a cash register and just want to sell a book to the large Amazon retailer giant, do you really want them to report your private info to a database just so you can save $19.99? I can see millions of people screaming invasion of privacy. The customer? maybe, but you will have to have anti-fraud systems in place or it would be too easy to cheat the system. You can’t go backwards to already purchased products because of the fact they didn’t include anything. Going forward you would have to create the system from scratch. That points back to above so we add in more, space/database/labor etc or just say more costs.
Third, and here is where it gets fun. WOTC has to allow everyone who is a retailer, digital or physical, access to this database so they can a) input data and b) lookup data. As they will have to have access to check and see if you already purchased the physical/digital book and to enter in new products and hope to whatever deity you worship, that it was entered correctly. Imagine the gold mine of data that someone could have fun with if they ever got hacked. So we have to add another cost to it all and who really wants this headache? Also, I know you said it before that you want to be able to transfer your digital license around between the different online providers (DDB, Roll20, FG). So they could potentialy see where your license is at so they would know the customer base size. I cannot imagine that any of these 4 companies would sign on for this.
So can it be done, a resounding yes is my answer. However, does WOTC want that responsibility/cost of such a program? I highly doubt it. They would farm this out to a 3rd party which would add costs and risk they would ultimately be responsible for and a loss in revenue as we now are selling a license once instead of multiple times for those that want to use multi platforms. I know this is the crux of your complaint. So costs go up and revenue goes down. End result is the cost of the book has to goes up.
Do retailers want this? I highly doubt they will either. They do not want to have to report their customer base, sales, and add costs to their bottom lines either. So they either eat the cost or pass it along to the customer.
Do the majority of gamers want this? Possibly, but do they want to pay more to have it? I doubt that, people already complain about the price of a $50 book (and still complain when it is discounted to Amazon/DDB prices). Yes, I remember when the PHB cost $30 and you scoured the internet to find it for $20 and thought that was still too much. Imagine if they had to double the cost of the books to $100 just to run this master database just so you could save a few bucks. Plus, not everyone would take advantage of the digital platform, so they are overpaying for something they do not want or need. How to do you resolve that? If you can't, D&D goes under and you are left with Pathfinder and a few others, but they have the same issue as WOTC from what i understand, so no gain there. (So can you transfer a Pathfinder digital license between Roll20 and FG? If not, why? Then what about the adventures they publish? see the rabbit hole yet?)
DDB/Roll20/FG can handle it because it is all internal to them and is part of their business structure from conception. They do not have to share the info with anyone so it is closed looped.
For my $.02, I would rather have WOTC stick to what it does best and publish then have the hobby suffer so you can save a few bucks here or there.
I don't think what you want is unreasonable, per se, just that your flogging a dead horse and none of three of the main players in this conversation are willing to let someone else have the last word!
Word!
(yes, this was just to good to pass up, sorry admins)
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
This discussion is starting to get a bit personal again in places.
The D&D Beyond policy is to allow discussion on any topic related to D&D Beyond or the D&D game, as long as it doesn't breach the site rules & guidelines.
Please consider this final warning, that the thread will be closed if there are further instances of people insulting each other, and there will be an infraction for anyone doing the insulting. Not something any of us want, including me!
Warning acknowledged. Usually when I say ignorant I don't mean it as an insult, just a condition we all suffer from. But the way I used it there was inappropriate.
Here's a fact: digital distribution is provided to me for free via unlicensed sites. My conclusion from that fact is that the work and cost of digital distribution is trivial. My opinion is that $19.99 is far too much to charge for compendium content. The only way they can get people to pay that again is to put it in front of what people really want, the character builder. Sausage.
Here's another couple of facts: DDB uses a content purchased registry. DDB does successful business. My conclusion to correlate those two facts isn't that DDB does successful business because of the content purchased registry, but Cee in response to your arguments about how the content purchased registry wouldn't work all I have to conclude is that DDB does successful business despite having a content purchased registry. Joining the facts with because makes it my opinion, but joining them with despite is a factual extrapolation. I can then further conclude that WotC can also do successful business despite using a content purchased registry. There are obstacles that exist, yes, but if those obstacles are overcome then it could be achieved and we would all benefit. Implementing and running a content purchased registry is not this big ordeal/endeavor you are making it out to be.
Anyway, I've already explained that before just in less detail. In light of final warning I'll try to not risk any more responses for a while (here comes the provoking). Just imagine me flogging this dead horse by reiterating my same points over and over again. I think this post is a pretty good catch all, categorizing many arguments. For example, this recent post from Cee is caught where I say "a non-sensical response would be to say that the content purchased registry is a bad business model while still saying that DDB is doing successful business (because they use the content purchased registry model)". That linked post also has a pretty good definition of my "goal posts" which, to some, seem to be moving.
Warning acknowledged. Usually when I say ignorant I don't mean it as an insult, just a condition we all suffer from. But the way I used it there was inappropriate.
Here's a fact: digital distribution is provided to me for free via unlicensed sites. My conclusion from that fact is that the work and cost of digital distribution is trivial. My opinion is that $19.99 is far too much to charge for compendium content. The only way they can get people to pay that again is to put it in front of what people really want, the character builder. Sausage.
Here's another couple of facts: DDB uses a content purchased registry. DDB does successful business. My conclusion to correlate those two facts isn't that DDB does successful business because of the content purchased registry, but Cee in response to your arguments about how the content purchased registry wouldn't work all I have to conclude is that DDB does successful business despite having a content purchased registry. Joining the facts with because makes it my opinion, but joining them with despite is a factual extrapolation. I can then further conclude that WotC can also do successful business despite using a content purchased registry. There are obstacles that exist, yes, but if those obstacles are overcome then it could be achieved and we would all benefit. Implementing and running a content purchased registry is not this big ordeal/endeavor you are making it out to be.
Anyway, I've already explained that before just in less detail. In light of final warning I'll try to not risk any more responses for a while. Just imagine me flogging this dead horse by reiterating my same points over and over again. I think this post is a pretty good catch all, categorizing many arguments. For example, this recent post from Cee is caught where I say "a non-sensical response would be to say that the content purchased registry is a bad business model while still saying that DDB is doing successful business (because they use the content purchased registry model)". That linked post also has a pretty good definition of my "goal posts" which, to some, seem to be moving.
Ok, So saying you can get digital distribution illegally for free via unlicensed sites is theft, not a good business model or argument to make. WOTC sent them C&D letters and will continue to do so to protect their IP which is their right. Sorry, i can not accept this as a valid argument. However, you are skipping the part where someone had to pay for all the cost and labor to make it and host it (even if someone did it themselves, labor still has a cost or else you just determined your own value is worth nothing). So, I can extrapolate on this basis that labor is free and should cost nothing and we shouldn't have to pay anyone for their hard work or services.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it was to cost prohibitive to WOTC to use one. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough. DDB/Roll20/FG/Any other seller all have a content purchased registry for themselves. All it is is a database that links your account number with what you bought and services you are signed up for. Now you are asking three separate companies to provide this info to a supplier that has no ownership or vested interest in said companies other than a license agreement and hoping the data does not get hacked or cross pollinated. And yes, there would be a huge cost for WotC to do this. this is not their business, this is not what they do. They write books and publish material. that is what they do. the difference is that for DDB this is their business, this is what they do so they have these things for themselves. these costs are built in for them. I do not know your background, but I am in IT, i know the costs for hardware, programmers, database admin's and server admins let alone the overhead for physical space, backups, internet pipelines, etc. In addition, if they did go this route, they would need to pay these companies for that data. "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
I could see Amazon asking Twitch asking Curse asking DDB to provide these details for marketing/sales purposes as they have a direct line of ownership, but if they were to ask Roll20/FG, I am sure they would get laughed at and told no.
ok, stop, hold the phone. Who am I kidding. We all know WOTC wouldn't run it themselves. It is not what they do. they publish. So they hire someone else to run the content purchase registry. So where do you put it? the largest public for hire database service is Amazon Services. They hire out, at a recurring cost to have this license feature that you can go to any of the three and use the product there and just subscribe to that companies services (this would include you having to pay extra for the character builder as that is a product of DDB, not WOTC). So you get a $10 discount (I mean half the cost of the compendium is a bit high for licensing imho, but i have to generalize as we do not know the real cost). IF you had purchased into all three, that would net you a $30 savings, but that is a bit overkill as most people only use one of the two VTT's. So is that $20 in saving per a end user enough to offset the cost it will take to run this system? Will it make them more money in the long run in somewhere else?
Try this, think of the business you either run or work for, now think if a supplier came to you and your two biggest competitors and asked that you all work together to sell their product, but to do so, you will need to turn over customer data to them so that the end user could save a few bucks. Would you do it?
Edit: So back just above your linked post above, you admit and i quote "Yeah I've been pointing the finger at WotC since the beginning of my involvement in this thread. I have posted there but it's basically a ghost town compared to the activity here. Any visibility anywhere on this issue is progress imo." So lets not forget why you are here asking on DDB forums, it has nothing to do with DDB.
then, I looked up "a non-sensical response" So either you are saying my responses are either: 1. Lacking intelligible meaning: a nonsensical jumble of words. or 2. Foolish; absurd: nonsensical ideas. yes, i tended to ramble when i am thinking up all the different reasonable explanations and examples to try to help you understand why what you want, not matter how badly you want it to happen, will not. If this is the case, then I got it, i no longer need to reply to you.
I tip my hat and bid you good day and happy gaming.
Warning acknowledged. Usually when I say ignorant I don't mean it as an insult, just a condition we all suffer from. But the way I used it there was inappropriate.
Here's a fact: digital distribution is provided to me for free via unlicensed sites. My conclusion from that fact is that the work and cost of digital distribution is trivial. My opinion is that $19.99 is far too much to charge for compendium content. The only way they can get people to pay that again is to put it in front of what people really want, the character builder. Sausage.
Here's another couple of facts: DDB uses a content purchased registry. DDB does successful business. My conclusion to correlate those two facts isn't that DDB does successful business because of the content purchased registry, but Cee in response to your arguments about how the content purchased registry wouldn't work all I have to conclude is that DDB does successful business despite having a content purchased registry. Joining the facts with because makes it my opinion, but joining them with despite is a factual extrapolation. I can then further conclude that WotC can also do successful business despite using a content purchased registry. There are obstacles that exist, yes, but if those obstacles are overcome then it could be achieved and we would all benefit. Implementing and running a content purchased registry is not this big ordeal/endeavor you are making it out to be.
Anyway, I've already explained that before just in less detail. In light of final warning I'll try to not risk any more responses for a while (here comes the provoking). Just imagine me flogging this dead horse by reiterating my same points over and over again. I think this post is a pretty good catch all, categorizing many arguments. For example, this recent post from Cee is caught where I say "a non-sensical response would be to say that the content purchased registry is a bad business model while still saying that DDB is doing successful business (because they use the content purchased registry model)". That linked post also has a pretty good definition of my "goal posts" which, to some, seem to be moving.
Those free online sites are giving away pirate copy of the rulebooks, which is extremely uncool. Besides that a read only pdf is nothing like what is done here at ddb, like character creation and management of characters, campaign, monsters treasure all the things that are here at ddb. putting a pdf up on a website for pirates to download is unfortunately easy to do. But all that is done here requires man hours of actual work, I do not know how much wizards of the coast gets for each book sold here but they do get there share, then ddb has to pay all the employees they have It is more than Todd Kenrick and Adam Bradford they need to make money to survive as the world works on money. So I hope you do not think that every penny they get for each book is profit, sadly that in this world is not the case. I myself suffered a stroke in 2017 and will never work again in any capacity to support myself, I live on disability payments that I and my wife (who does have her work as well) I pay for the products here so I can download them on to the app since I cannot carry the books to the games I do play. I actually own 11 books, the starter set and a DM's screen as real products, But I also have luckily bought everything here and will continue to do so. So please stop being upset about the price here in the real world of life if you want something you pay for it like everyone else does.
As far as I'm concerned me and whoever made this application have no beef, but I won't be getting involved. For me its a fairly simple reasoning.
I don't think the value is there for me personally and perhaps others can relate. I don't only play D&D and I go long lulls between campaigns sometimes as much as a year. What I want is a subscription model so that while I'm active I can activate it, pay and use it with access to all content and when I'm not I want to turn it off and stop paying. Paying something like 10 bucks a month for a few months during a campaign is fine, even if in the end it costs more then the price of the books, because its a small monthly fee as opposed to justification for one large sum. Its no different than buying Starbucks coffee. If I came to Starbucks and they asked me to pay for every cup I'm going to have for the whole year, I would stop drinking coffee there, but paying one cup at a time, we are all good. This content is the same, I'm not going to pay over 100 bucks to get digital versions of books I've already bought, but I would have no problem paying 100 bucks to gain access to them for 10 months, paying 10 bucks at a time.
Is there a difference? I think if you know anything about the economy in the world and how budgets in house holds are formed and managed you would notably understand that there are three things that we as consumers don't want to do as far as digital content is concerned.
1. We don't want to pay large sums of money all at once for digital anything.
2. We don't want contracts that we can't get out of (aka why cell phone companies are reverting to month to month programs without contracts).
3. We want a "its forever" guarantee you can't give us with digital content. When we buy something we want to own it, not borrow it and borrowing this digital content is exactly what you are doing when you buy it... its why we want to rent it instead.
I know I don't speak for everyone, but of the half dozen guys in my gaming group it was unanimously decided that no one would be participating in D&D Beyond even though we were all initially very excited about it.
It appears to me you have hit the nail on the head! When you use DDB you are, in effect, renting access to content and application. A subscription model makes sense as an option. Many ways to implement this ,but one example could be paying a monthly fee for each piece of content you use in your campaign that month. A flat rate at minimum cost might give you one set of content to access. Another rate at higher cost gives you Essentials and say 1 adventure content. Yet another opens up more. Finally, you could have an “all you can eat” subscription. So, “by the drink” or “all you can eat” monthly rates, and anything in between. Mischief handled. You then can add on the DM bits of creating campaigns and inviting players.....the players paying nothing to DDB, or a minimal “connect” fee...say a buck a month. ....
no large cash up front payments for anything....mischief handled
What's to stop me from setting up an account, paying for the first month, and then using that month to save copies of everything and then cancelling immediately before getting charged for another month?
As a customer of the current model, my group and I each paid $11 and we were able to get everything we needed and haven't had to pay any more since. How exactly is a recurring subscription-based model more fair than that?
To add on, DDB has to pay a license fee upfront for each sold product. How exactly would that work? DDB would put out a lot of cash upfront just for people to do as AdventureFlight has suggested. The model fails.
and before you start pointing fingers and say “What about D&D Online for 4.0”, that was WOTC directly and they found out they didn’t want to do it again, thT is why they out sourced it. I am also sure they lost lots of money on it.
I for one am a “I would rather pay once forever.” Than a subscription model and continue to pay beyond what I could have purchased it for.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
while I like the idea of DDB, and was hoping the site and app would help with running a game, I go through the creation and find many limitations on the site that demand you repay for a license fee for the content you already own in physical books appalling.
I understand the whole debate and how economics work for this sad as it is. I can't condone or suggest the use of this to anyone that already has spent money on Physical books.
on the other hand, if they don't mind paying for a License and not a physical book then go for it.
myself I'd rather have a physical good that I paid for over some license.
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I think the point of confusion is that the word "you" in that quote actually is not actually one company; it is many companies.
There is the publisher (WOTC) and a number of retailers (Curse, gaming and book stores online and offline).
What I am seeing in this thread is confusion between "I paid WOTC for a product (a physical book) therefore WOTC should give me another product (a digital book) for no extra money." and "I paid one retailer (FLGS, Amazon.com, etc) for a product therefore a different retailer (Curse) should give me a product for no extra money."
It's back to the sausage. The confusion is a natural result of having a complex infrastructure resulting in a poor buying experience. Complex Infrastructure > confusion & overpriced > poor buying experience. To be clear, the sausage isn't DDB, d&d 5e, wotc, none of that. The sausage is the buying experience. The fact that I'm supposed to say y'all in my quoted post in order to not cause confusion is the problem. Y'all is not in my vernacular.
Why do you say it is a "complex" infrastructure? What proportion of your retail experience doesn't include producer, distributor(s) and retailer?
17 minute video. 36 pages.
@Kreakdude, I've been watching this thread (kind of hoping it'll go away, kind of going out for more popcorn) and you're starting to come across as quite unreasonable in this matter. And the goal posts do seem to keep shifting.
Here's the bottom line: given that Curse and WOTC are different companies (as you know), you're demanding of WOTC what no other company does.
What you're asking for is the equivalent of being able to buy a book in Barnes and Noble and get a discount for the Amazon Kindle version. A publisher could work something out, but no one does it. Same with movies - you might get a digital download with the Bluray, but you can't get it from iTunes (which is where I want it, I don't want to have to fritz around with more technology). Of course, it can be done, but no one does it or is going to do it. What we have instead are lower prices on digital books (presumably because of economies gained through digitisation). It might not be the business model you prefer, but it is, arguably, a much better one because it's simpler, especially for the average person. It's also delivered lower prices. In the case of DDB, when you consider that you can buy a book like the PHB for $20, or the book and tools for $30, the value really does go through the roof. Customers get lower prices, the publisher still gets to make a profit, the platform is sustainable.
Sure, DDB's branding may be a little confusing because they use the ampersand, but most people get it once it's explained to them. And frankly, good on Curse, it's a marketing coup for them.
I don't think what you want is unreasonable, per se, just that your flogging a dead horse and none of three of the main players in this conversation are willing to let someone else have the last word!
Ooh ooh, can’t wait for the rebuttal from someone <eye roll>
Seriously, I’m all for good discussion on the forums, but this thread is the true definition of insanity...saying the same thing hoping for a different response. Sometimes it’s entertaining to see whose on the soap box today and getting baited into another rant. Most of the time it’s just tiresome after seeing 36 pages/721 posts of the same arguments wrapped up in different packaging.
Yes, I know. I got sucked in. I've been trying to be good, but this thread is a bit like watching a car crash. Horrendous but you can't turn away.
I see this as a guy bought a Ford Mustang brand new and it doesn't work right, but the Chevy Dealer won't fix it for free, even though they sale a Camaro.
EDIT:
I know they are different.
Whoa! Wait a minute, hold up there. A slight correction to this. And this IS where some of the confusion is. You did not pay WOTC anything. You purchased a book from a retailer/distributor. they are the ones who paid WOTC (or more specifically, probably a bigger distributor who in turn pays WOTC). So while some of your dollars may end up there, that book was already purchased by the store/retailer/distro before you even got it.
It should be stated, "I paid a retailer for a WOTC Licensed product therefore a different retailer should give me another WOTC Licensed product (a digital book) for no extra money."
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
1. Calling us ignorant (and vice versa) will get us no where and is a violation of the terms of this board. So lets skip the insults please. i do not believe i have ever called you such. if I have, i apologize.
2. The problem with the content purchased registry is that it was created by a vendor/retailer/distributor whatever you want to call DDB. It was not created by WOTC and being that they are solely a publisher/manufacturer, they have no need or want to have such a thing. The main reason is cost. Plus the burden placed on every small B&M retailer out there. lets sit back and see what you are really asking for with this:
So can it be done, a resounding yes is my answer. However, does WOTC want that responsibility/cost of such a program? I highly doubt it. They would farm this out to a 3rd party which would add costs and risk they would ultimately be responsible for and a loss in revenue as we now are selling a license once instead of multiple times for those that want to use multi platforms. I know this is the crux of your complaint. So costs go up and revenue goes down. End result is the cost of the book has to goes up.
Do retailers want this? I highly doubt they will either. They do not want to have to report their customer base, sales, and add costs to their bottom lines either. So they either eat the cost or pass it along to the customer.
Do the majority of gamers want this? Possibly, but do they want to pay more to have it? I doubt that, people already complain about the price of a $50 book (and still complain when it is discounted to Amazon/DDB prices). Yes, I remember when the PHB cost $30 and you scoured the internet to find it for $20 and thought that was still too much. Imagine if they had to double the cost of the books to $100 just to run this master database just so you could save a few bucks. Plus, not everyone would take advantage of the digital platform, so they are overpaying for something they do not want or need. How to do you resolve that? If you can't, D&D goes under and you are left with Pathfinder and a few others, but they have the same issue as WOTC from what i understand, so no gain there. (So can you transfer a Pathfinder digital license between Roll20 and FG? If not, why? Then what about the adventures they publish? see the rabbit hole yet?)
DDB/Roll20/FG can handle it because it is all internal to them and is part of their business structure from conception. They do not have to share the info with anyone so it is closed looped.
For my $.02, I would rather have WOTC stick to what it does best and publish then have the hobby suffer so you can save a few bucks here or there.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Word!
(yes, this was just to good to pass up, sorry admins)
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
This discussion is starting to get a bit personal again in places.
The D&D Beyond policy is to allow discussion on any topic related to D&D Beyond or the D&D game, as long as it doesn't breach the site rules & guidelines.
Please consider this final warning, that the thread will be closed if there are further instances of people insulting each other, and there will be an infraction for anyone doing the insulting. Not something any of us want, including me!
Thank you.
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Edit: Deleted as the video was already posted.
Warning acknowledged. Usually when I say ignorant I don't mean it as an insult, just a condition we all suffer from. But the way I used it there was inappropriate.
Here's a fact: digital distribution is provided to me for free via unlicensed sites. My conclusion from that fact is that the work and cost of digital distribution is trivial. My opinion is that $19.99 is far too much to charge for compendium content. The only way they can get people to pay that again is to put it in front of what people really want, the character builder. Sausage.
Here's another couple of facts: DDB uses a content purchased registry. DDB does successful business. My conclusion to correlate those two facts isn't that DDB does successful business because of the content purchased registry, but Cee in response to your arguments about how the content purchased registry wouldn't work all I have to conclude is that DDB does successful business despite having a content purchased registry. Joining the facts with because makes it my opinion, but joining them with despite is a factual extrapolation. I can then further conclude that WotC can also do successful business despite using a content purchased registry. There are obstacles that exist, yes, but if those obstacles are overcome then it could be achieved and we would all benefit. Implementing and running a content purchased registry is not this big ordeal/endeavor you are making it out to be.
Anyway, I've already explained that before just in less detail. In light of final warning I'll try to not risk any more responses for a while (here comes the provoking). Just imagine me flogging this dead horse by reiterating my same points over and over again. I think this post is a pretty good catch all, categorizing many arguments. For example, this recent post from Cee is caught where I say "a non-sensical response would be to say that the content purchased registry is a bad business model while still saying that DDB is doing successful business (because they use the content purchased registry model)". That linked post also has a pretty good definition of my "goal posts" which, to some, seem to be moving.
Ok, So saying you can get digital distribution illegally for free via unlicensed sites is theft, not a good business model or argument to make. WOTC sent them C&D letters and will continue to do so to protect their IP which is their right. Sorry, i can not accept this as a valid argument. However, you are skipping the part where someone had to pay for all the cost and labor to make it and host it (even if someone did it themselves, labor still has a cost or else you just determined your own value is worth nothing). So, I can extrapolate on this basis that labor is free and should cost nothing and we shouldn't have to pay anyone for their hard work or services.
I never said it wouldn't work, I said it was to cost prohibitive to WOTC to use one. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough. DDB/Roll20/FG/Any other seller all have a content purchased registry for themselves. All it is is a database that links your account number with what you bought and services you are signed up for. Now you are asking three separate companies to provide this info to a supplier that has no ownership or vested interest in said companies other than a license agreement and hoping the data does not get hacked or cross pollinated. And yes, there would be a huge cost for WotC to do this. this is not their business, this is not what they do. They write books and publish material. that is what they do. the difference is that for DDB this is their business, this is what they do so they have these things for themselves. these costs are built in for them. I do not know your background, but I am in IT, i know the costs for hardware, programmers, database admin's and server admins let alone the overhead for physical space, backups, internet pipelines, etc. In addition, if they did go this route, they would need to pay these companies for that data. "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
I could see Amazon asking Twitch asking Curse asking DDB to provide these details for marketing/sales purposes as they have a direct line of ownership, but if they were to ask Roll20/FG, I am sure they would get laughed at and told no.
ok, stop, hold the phone. Who am I kidding. We all know WOTC wouldn't run it themselves. It is not what they do. they publish. So they hire someone else to run the content purchase registry. So where do you put it? the largest public for hire database service is Amazon Services. They hire out, at a recurring cost to have this license feature that you can go to any of the three and use the product there and just subscribe to that companies services (this would include you having to pay extra for the character builder as that is a product of DDB, not WOTC). So you get a $10 discount (I mean half the cost of the compendium is a bit high for licensing imho, but i have to generalize as we do not know the real cost). IF you had purchased into all three, that would net you a $30 savings, but that is a bit overkill as most people only use one of the two VTT's. So is that $20 in saving per a end user enough to offset the cost it will take to run this system? Will it make them more money in the long run in somewhere else?
Try this, think of the business you either run or work for, now think if a supplier came to you and your two biggest competitors and asked that you all work together to sell their product, but to do so, you will need to turn over customer data to them so that the end user could save a few bucks. Would you do it?
Edit:
So back just above your linked post above, you admit and i quote "Yeah I've been pointing the finger at WotC since the beginning of my involvement in this thread. I have posted there but it's basically a ghost town compared to the activity here. Any visibility anywhere on this issue is progress imo." So lets not forget why you are here asking on DDB forums, it has nothing to do with DDB.
then, I looked up "a non-sensical response" So either you are saying my responses are either: 1. Lacking intelligible meaning: a nonsensical jumble of words. or 2. Foolish; absurd: nonsensical ideas. yes, i tended to ramble when i am thinking up all the different reasonable explanations and examples to try to help you understand why what you want, not matter how badly you want it to happen, will not. If this is the case, then I got it, i no longer need to reply to you.
I tip my hat and bid you good day and happy gaming.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Those free online sites are giving away pirate copy of the rulebooks, which is extremely uncool. Besides that a read only pdf is nothing like what is done here at ddb, like character creation and management of characters, campaign, monsters treasure all the things that are here at ddb. putting a pdf up on a website for pirates to download is unfortunately easy to do. But all that is done here requires man hours of actual work, I do not know how much wizards of the coast gets for each book sold here but they do get there share, then ddb has to pay all the employees they have It is more than Todd Kenrick and Adam Bradford they need to make money to survive as the world works on money. So I hope you do not think that every penny they get for each book is profit, sadly that in this world is not the case. I myself suffered a stroke in 2017 and will never work again in any capacity to support myself, I live on disability payments that I and my wife (who does have her work as well) I pay for the products here so I can download them on to the app since I cannot carry the books to the games I do play. I actually own 11 books, the starter set and a DM's screen as real products, But I also have luckily bought everything here and will continue to do so. So please stop being upset about the price here in the real world of life if you want something you pay for it like everyone else does.
It appears to me you have hit the nail on the head! When you use DDB you are, in effect, renting access to content and application. A subscription model makes sense as an option. Many ways to implement this ,but one example could be paying a monthly fee for each piece of content you use in your campaign that month. A flat rate at minimum cost might give you one set of content to access. Another rate at higher cost gives you Essentials and say 1 adventure content. Yet another opens up more. Finally, you could have an “all you can eat” subscription. So, “by the drink” or “all you can eat” monthly rates, and anything in between. Mischief handled. You then can add on the DM bits of creating campaigns and inviting players.....the players paying nothing to DDB, or a minimal “connect” fee...say a buck a month. ....
no large cash up front payments for anything....mischief handled
Gray Mouser
What's to stop me from setting up an account, paying for the first month, and then using that month to save copies of everything and then cancelling immediately before getting charged for another month?
As a customer of the current model, my group and I each paid $11 and we were able to get everything we needed and haven't had to pay any more since. How exactly is a recurring subscription-based model more fair than that?
To add on, DDB has to pay a license fee upfront for each sold product. How exactly would that work? DDB would put out a lot of cash upfront just for people to do as AdventureFlight has suggested. The model fails.
and before you start pointing fingers and say “What about D&D Online for 4.0”, that was WOTC directly and they found out they didn’t want to do it again, thT is why they out sourced it. I am also sure they lost lots of money on it.
I for one am a “I would rather pay once forever.” Than a subscription model and continue to pay beyond what I could have purchased it for.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
while I like the idea of DDB, and was hoping the site and app would help with running a game, I go through the creation and find many limitations on the site that demand you repay for a license fee for the content you already own in physical books appalling.
I understand the whole debate and how economics work for this sad as it is. I can't condone or suggest the use of this to anyone that already has spent money on Physical books.
on the other hand, if they don't mind paying for a License and not a physical book then go for it.
myself I'd rather have a physical good that I paid for over some license.