At this point I think some people are posting in this thread just to troll us, and see how much we'll froth at the mouth to explain simple capitalism. Peace out.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Kreakdude, if you have already purchased the physical books, then WotC has not lost your business, only Curse has lost your business.
You assume that if I've purchased all of WotC's content that they have no incentive to retain me. I would still play with friends, invite new players and speak well to these potential first time buyers of my love for the game and happiness with the money of spent. Free marketing. I'd also likely purchase any new content they come out with. Also, assuming WotC gets cuts of Curse's sales, if Curse loses my business then so does WotC.
Then please explain to me why when i go to the FLGS to get that special edition book cover, why don't i get the regular version at a discount? After all, it is the exact same content, just a different wrapper.
I'll quote from my google doc D&D Digital & Physical Content Distribution Model
Physical Distributors Unlike digital distribution, there is no way to enforce non-transferability. Therefore, only one full price point need be offered to the assumed new user.
I know I said before that you could use a physical copy to get a discount on another physical copy. Thanks to your feedback (and thinking about it for 2 more seconds) I can see that that wouldn't work. But digital is different. You can enforce non-transferability. More from my doc ...
Optionally, the physical copy will come with an activation code which must be withheld from the user until purchase is complete. Possible solutions include: package the book in a sealed box, print the code in the book but cover it with a coin-scratchable surface, keep the activation code behind the desk.
Competing Tool sets? Like whom? who else has a tool set even remotely like Curse does? Roll20 and FG do not. All those illegal ones were made just to build a character with, so they don't either. Right now DDB is it, in my opinion. Will WOTC give license rights to a another company? Probably, but you will have to buy it all over again for their site as well, so you won't gain a thing.
The fact that DDB's toolset's features are different from Roll20 & FG is even more reason (not less) to want to have both and to want to repurchase the content and more fear-inducing. The difference makes it more hard to have to choose between them. If they had the exact same feature list but just had different art & GUI then the choice wouldn't matter as much.
Where are you buying your books???? I work for a bookstore in Canada and the PHB, MM, DMG is $58 ($60.90 after tax), Volo's is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax), Xanathars is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax). The most expensive at the moment is Tomb of Annihilation at $65.95 ($69.25 after tax).
Yes ddb is still cheaper. But whoa, you might have to rethink were you are getting your physical copies.
Where are you buying your books???? I work for a bookstore in Canada and the PHB, MM, DMG is $58 ($60.90 after tax), Volo's is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax), Xanathars is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax). The most expensive at the moment is Tomb of Annihilation at $65.95 ($69.25 after tax).
Yes ddb is still cheaper. But whoa, you might have to rethink were you are getting your physical copies.
Crimsonshark seems to be talking to DnDPaladin, who said "Just for the record... Here in canada... Each books is upward 90$ with taxes and all" about 30 posts earlier in the thread.
Ok, lets step back a second and what are you really wanting? i keep hearing i want the content in a digital format right? what if they stepped up and said you can get the digital format of the book, same as you hold in your hands for about $20. would you buy it then?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Where are you buying your books???? I work for a bookstore in Canada and the PHB, MM, DMG is $58 ($60.90 after tax), Volo's is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax), Xanathars is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax). The most expensive at the moment is Tomb of Annihilation at $65.95 ($69.25 after tax).
Yes ddb is still cheaper. But whoa, you might have to rethink were you are getting your physical copies.
58 + 15% taxes isn't 60.90... also, you get the books for full US price ? lucky you, here in quebec we change it to canadian dollars which is literally 33 cents per US dollars. so yeah let's change the US to CDN and see for yourrself where we lose most of our dolars. also, if you guys elsewhere in canada because i know you all have a single taxes, here in quebec we get two of them. and guess what... one taxe is taxed by the others, though i heard it wasn't the case anymore, the money spent shows us its probably still is. also, the book store we have that sell then, the only book store in my city that sells them... needs to make money if it wants to survive. you know small businesses have it hard lately.
i'm not gonna give you the full breakdown i already did in this very thread before. i'll just say the math adds up to near 90$ which is literally what my VOLO's guide costed me.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Ok, lets step back a second and what are you really wanting? i keep hearing i want the content in a digital format right? what if they stepped up and said you can get the digital format of the book, same as you hold in your hands for about $20. would you buy it then?
First off, thank you for taking a genuine interest in my POV and asking a great question.
I don't think the situation you described is enough to resolve my fears. My fear isn't that I won't have the content in digital format. My fear is needing to re-purchase the content again in order to use it with all the tools available. What I want is for my fear to be resolved by WotC acknowledging my purchase with some digital records so that it can be used as a proof of purchase to prevent me from having to pay for the content again as much as possible.
ps: I'm not expecting to get the tools for free just because I already purchased the content. I know tool makers need to make money. Even if I could provide proof of purchase of content to tool makers, I'd still expect to pay for access to the tools (or maybe the ability to connect the free tools with the pre-purchased content).
ps: I'm not expecting to get the tools for free just because I already purchased the content. I know tool makers need to make money. Even if I could provide proof of purchase of content to tool makers, I'd still expect to pay for access to the tools (or maybe the ability to connect the free tools with the pre-purchased content).
So, let's see if I've got this right...
What you are saying is that it isn't how much D&D Beyond is asking for you to pay in order to have all the game content usable within their tool set, but it is where they ask for money that you don't like?
If they were offering a paid subscription service that would cost you just as much as the legendary bundle over the course of the life-span of the 5th edition of D&D, but were saying "that's the price to use our tools" instead of "Our tools are free to use. WotC's game content is going to cost you." you'd be fine with it?
ps: I'm not expecting to get the tools for free just because I already purchased the content. I know tool makers need to make money. Even if I could provide proof of purchase of content to tool makers, I'd still expect to pay for access to the tools (or maybe the ability to connect the free tools with the pre-purchased content).
So, let's see if I've got this right...
What you are saying is that it isn't how much D&D Beyond is asking for you to pay in order to have all the game content usable within their tool set, but it is where they ask for money that you don't like?
If they were offering a paid subscription service that would cost you just as much as the legendary bundle over the course of the life-span of the 5th edition of D&D, but were saying "that's the price to use our tools" instead of "Our tools are free to use. WotC's game content is going to cost you." you'd be fine with it?
Nailed it. Yes, thank you. I want to put a price directly on the value added by the tools.
ps: I'm not expecting to get the tools for free just because I already purchased the content. I know tool makers need to make money. Even if I could provide proof of purchase of content to tool makers, I'd still expect to pay for access to the tools (or maybe the ability to connect the free tools with the pre-purchased content).
So, let's see if I've got this right...
What you are saying is that it isn't how much D&D Beyond is asking for you to pay in order to have all the game content usable within their tool set, but it is where they ask for money that you don't like?
If they were offering a paid subscription service that would cost you just as much as the legendary bundle over the course of the life-span of the 5th edition of D&D, but were saying "that's the price to use our tools" instead of "Our tools are free to use. WotC's game content is going to cost you." you'd be fine with it?
One step further, offer multiple prices for the monthly subscription depending on how much previously purchased content you could proof of purchase through your WotC activation keys.
Where are you buying your books???? I work for a bookstore in Canada and the PHB, MM, DMG is $58 ($60.90 after tax), Volo's is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax), Xanathars is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax). The most expensive at the moment is Tomb of Annihilation at $65.95 ($69.25 after tax).
Yes ddb is still cheaper. But whoa, you might have to rethink were you are getting your physical copies.
58 + 15% taxes isn't 60.90... also, you get the books for full US price ? lucky you, here in quebec we change it to canadian dollars which is literally 33 cents per US dollars. so yeah let's change the US to CDN and see for yourrself where we lose most of our dolars. also, if you guys elsewhere in canada because i know you all have a single taxes, here in quebec we get two of them. and guess what... one taxe is taxed by the others, though i heard it wasn't the case anymore, the money spent shows us its probably still is. also, the book store we have that sell then, the only book store in my city that sells them... needs to make money if it wants to survive. you know small businesses have it hard lately.
i'm not gonna give you the full breakdown i already did in this very thread before. i'll just say the math adds up to near 90$ which is literally what my VOLO's guide costed me.
Well I just checked and on todays date Jan. 19, 2018 $1.00 Canadian is worth $.80 in the United States. Now I do live in Alberta and here we just payGST of 5%. I have also decided that for me when WotC releases Adventures I will Buy them on DDB, for actual rulebooks I will order 1 from Amazon.ca and 1 here on DDB. Ordering from Amazon.ca is about $30.00 Canadian less then picking it up at the local game store or bookstore for that matter.
ps: I'm not expecting to get the tools for free just because I already purchased the content. I know tool makers need to make money. Even if I could provide proof of purchase of content to tool makers, I'd still expect to pay for access to the tools (or maybe the ability to connect the free tools with the pre-purchased content).
So, let's see if I've got this right...
What you are saying is that it isn't how much D&D Beyond is asking for you to pay in order to have all the game content usable within their tool set, but it is where they ask for money that you don't like?
If they were offering a paid subscription service that would cost you just as much as the legendary bundle over the course of the life-span of the 5th edition of D&D, but were saying "that's the price to use our tools" instead of "Our tools are free to use. WotC's game content is going to cost you." you'd be fine with it?
Nailed it. Yes, thank you. I want to put a price directly on the value added by the tools.
Maybe just pretend that buying the content, instead of buying the tools since Curse decided to have them usable for free (which is awesome, not something that should be complained about and asked to have change), is buying a "life-time subscription" to the tools?
Because seriously, you are either asking for the folks making the tools and/or game not to make a worthwhile (to them) profit, or you are asking to be made to pay far greater total money in the long run just because you don't like the way they chose to phrase "Pay X, get the thing you say you want".
Maybe just pretend that buying the content, instead of buying the tools since Curse decided to have them usable for free (which is awesome, not something that should be complained about and asked to have change), is buying a "life-time subscription" to the tools?
Because seriously, you are either asking for the folks making the tools and/or game not to make a worthwhile (to them) profit, or you are asking to be made to pay far greater total money in the long run just because you don't like the way they chose to phrase "Pay X, get the thing you say you want".
Good advice, but I wouldn't buy a lifetime subscription. One of the benefits of the model you presented is that I have the freedom to deactivate on DDB and switch to roll20 or to nothing or to even be on both. It emulates the freedom I'd have if my content purchases were transferrable across toolsets. Given the lifetime of 5e if I spend x months subscribed to DDB, y months subscribed through roll20, z months not subscribed then x + y + z would equal 100% price of the content. As opposed to 100% at DDB and 100% again at roll20 totaling 200%. Unless I subscribe to both roll20 & DDB at the same time because their toolsets offer different features then I'd go over 100%. Yeah it gets confusing fast.
If I'm going to spend more than 100% on the content you gotta try harder to trick me I guess. If you ask me "How much of the content do you want?" you also have to ask me "How much do you already have?". But if you ask me neither, assuming I have none and want all, I wouldn't worry about it.
"Nailed it. Yes, thank you. I want to put a price directly on the value added by the tools."
Ahh, so ok then. here is the deal. When you look at the price of the book here on DDB, go to options, scroll all the way down to the Compendium Content Only. $19.99 each for the DMG, PHB, and MM. That is how much it is just for the digital copy of the book which includes the licensing factor to WOTC. The rest of the normal cost is what gets you the toolset to do all the nifty things like character sheet integration. so $10 on average for the main 3 books.
From the MM Compendium Content Only: Purchasing this bundle unlocks the Monster Manual book in digital format in the game compendium with all the artwork and maps, cross-linking, and tooltips.
The Compendium Content bundle does not grant access to all the content’s options in the rest of the toolset, such as the searchable listings, character builder, or digital sheet.
I understand you want to have cross platform, but since WOTC is not doing the digital version themselves, we have little choice in the matter. This is really a WOTC and not a DDB issue at the moment. Could DDB spearhead and work with WOTC to have R20 or FG integration? Sure, and they might just do it to get the VTT if they decide not to create their own, but I am sure WOTC would have something to say about it and the licensing aspect and right now they have more important things to work on like the app, character generation overhaul, and the content sharing platform along with a dozen other things to improve DDB first. All I can suggest is the following: 1) Have patience and see what happens down the road. Keep using your pen and paper and enjoy the hobby as you have been doing. 2) Buy what you want on DDB and take the gamble and enjoy everything Curse has made to date.
Also, if you wanted to go with one time activation codes, you would do the following things,
Incur a huge cost to run the database and people to staff and fix issues with activation not only at Wizards, but also with 3rd party's like Curse/Roll20/FG. It isn't as simple as having an automated process as things happen and do not work, just ask Microsoft. Maybe not to thier level, but it would still be enormous. Again, this only works if WOTC makes it's own digital content (which they do not) or they Partner up to reimburse the licensing fee (lets just say it's only $10 per a book). Probably not worth the hassle imho. I have not purchased on Roll20 or FG so i can't say what you actually get there.
No more returns/Preview's. All books would have to be sealed and you wouldn't be able to browse through it to see if it was worth the cost. Someone would have to pony up the amount just to see what is inside. the major downside is that everyone has their own opinion and just because everyone is saying something is crap, only you can deicde if it is the right product for yourself. The downside is if it is, you won't be able to return it. There would be no way to know if the digital activation code had been used, this is why they do not allow returns for games.
Drive up the cost of the physical and the licensing fee's. Have to recoup those costs somehow and i am just sure that Hasbro isn't going to just suck it up and task the hit. Especially not for a division that barley covers it's own cost*.
Tank the secondary book market as they would now have less value from the cover price as it would be assumed (and correctly so), that it covers the physical and digital versions. However, with the activation code already being used, now the value would only be for the book itself. Plus, if you sell the physical, does that still give you rights to own the digital since you can no longer show proof of ownership?
* If the rumors are true that D&D is almost a money loss vs other divisions such as MTG. Latest rumor is that the D&D division will be up for sale in 2020. Also, why they discontinued the Novel line to put funding into the D&D Movie instead of having both.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Yeah thanks for explaining all that. I didn't know there was a price point for content + digital distribution - tools integration. Even if I can't pay just the extra $10 to add tools integration, at least i know what it is.
Yeah I get all the reasons why my proposed model would be risky. Maybe I'm overly optimistic and hopeful, like I wouldn't use the word enormous where you did, and I very well may be wrong that they'd make more money in the long run. They might not make it to the long run. But I like to see when companies do things (like cooperate in benefit of the customers) in hopes to increase the total size of the market.
Can I just ask how do you know this? Do you work for the above companies?
It's public information/knowledge. Take a look at the news releases about DDB; take a look at the branding here. Do a search for "does twitch own curse" and read the numerous news articles that appear there.
D&D Beyond is not owned by WotC. D&D Beyond is owned by Curse, which is owned by Twitch. Purchasing the digital books supports the hard work done to create the site and its tools.
Can I just ask how do you know this? Do you work for the above companies?
At this point I think some people are posting in this thread just to troll us, and see how much we'll froth at the mouth to explain simple capitalism. Peace out.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I know I said before that you could use a physical copy to get a discount on another physical copy. Thanks to your feedback (and thinking about it for 2 more seconds) I can see that that wouldn't work. But digital is different. You can enforce non-transferability. More from my doc ...
DDB: $Content + $CharactarCreationWizardAndMore
Roll20: $VirtualBoardWithContent
DDB: $CharacterCreationWizardAndMoreWithContent
Where are you buying your books???? I work for a bookstore in Canada and the PHB, MM, DMG is $58 ($60.90 after tax), Volo's is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax), Xanathars is $63.95 ($67.15 after tax). The most expensive at the moment is Tomb of Annihilation at $65.95 ($69.25 after tax).
Yes ddb is still cheaper. But whoa, you might have to rethink were you are getting your physical copies.
Ok, lets step back a second and what are you really wanting? i keep hearing i want the content in a digital format right? what if they stepped up and said you can get the digital format of the book, same as you hold in your hands for about $20. would you buy it then?
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
also, you get the books for full US price ?
lucky you, here in quebec we change it to canadian dollars which is literally 33 cents per US dollars. so yeah let's change the US to CDN and see for yourrself where we lose most of our dolars. also, if you guys elsewhere in canada because i know you all have a single taxes, here in quebec we get two of them. and guess what... one taxe is taxed by the others, though i heard it wasn't the case anymore, the money spent shows us its probably still is. also, the book store we have that sell then, the only book store in my city that sells them... needs to make money if it wants to survive. you know small businesses have it hard lately.
i'm not gonna give you the full breakdown i already did in this very thread before. i'll just say the math adds up to near 90$ which is literally what my VOLO's guide costed me.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Returning User: ($x-$y)/month = (All content - content you've already paid for) & tool acces
"Nailed it. Yes, thank you. I want to put a price directly on the value added by the tools."
Ahh, so ok then. here is the deal. When you look at the price of the book here on DDB, go to options, scroll all the way down to the Compendium Content Only. $19.99 each for the DMG, PHB, and MM. That is how much it is just for the digital copy of the book which includes the licensing factor to WOTC. The rest of the normal cost is what gets you the toolset to do all the nifty things like character sheet integration. so $10 on average for the main 3 books.
I understand you want to have cross platform, but since WOTC is not doing the digital version themselves, we have little choice in the matter. This is really a WOTC and not a DDB issue at the moment. Could DDB spearhead and work with WOTC to have R20 or FG integration? Sure, and they might just do it to get the VTT if they decide not to create their own, but I am sure WOTC would have something to say about it and the licensing aspect and right now they have more important things to work on like the app, character generation overhaul, and the content sharing platform along with a dozen other things to improve DDB first. All I can suggest is the following: 1) Have patience and see what happens down the road. Keep using your pen and paper and enjoy the hobby as you have been doing. 2) Buy what you want on DDB and take the gamble and enjoy everything Curse has made to date.
Also, if you wanted to go with one time activation codes, you would do the following things,
* If the rumors are true that D&D is almost a money loss vs other divisions such as MTG. Latest rumor is that the D&D division will be up for sale in 2020. Also, why they discontinued the Novel line to put funding into the D&D Movie instead of having both.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Yeah thanks for explaining all that. I didn't know there was a price point for content + digital distribution - tools integration. Even if I can't pay just the extra $10 to add tools integration, at least i know what it is.
Yeah I get all the reasons why my proposed model would be risky. Maybe I'm overly optimistic and hopeful, like I wouldn't use the word enormous where you did, and I very well may be wrong that they'd make more money in the long run. They might not make it to the long run. But I like to see when companies do things (like cooperate in benefit of the customers) in hopes to increase the total size of the market.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.