It’s sad that the amount of times multiple people have said that this entire conversation is a difference among opinions, and they’re right. No one can be 100% sure about the subject at all, we can only theorize about it. I will admit that I was among the people who where part of the argument trying to make a point. Can’t we all just agree that no one can know for sure, unless you’re the one who created the ‘peoples’ and say this, this, and this about your contribution to the world of D&D. If any of you guys are creators of these races (for D&D, of course) then say the correct answer; if not, then people, let’s please end this argument that’s going no where and just start talking about something else that won’t lead us to taint the word community. Please.
If evil does not exist morally then neither does good. It may be unacceptable as part of a society, but society cannot be good or evil and so cannot do wrong.
If you truly believe morality is subjective then you have no moral high ground for any topic. If some says it is a moral duty to enslave other people you cannot say that they are morally wrong. If someone says it is morally just to rob others of everything they own and destroy their lives over a past injustice someone in their family might have done them you can’t say that’s wrong either because their word has as much value and truth as your own.
Of course I can say. Just because my opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s doesn’t mean I’m not entitled to. That’s what morality means, that I do have an opinion on what is right and what is wrong.
If a society says it is morally just to throw gays and lesbians off rooftops and is accepted as part of their culture, you cannot say they are in the wrong. If a government decides to commit genocide you cannot say they are morally bankrupt because they are following their morality.
Of course I can say they are wrong. That’s because my morality does not have to match my society’s ethics. That is what morality means compared to ethics. That’s kinda the whole point.
In order to effectively criticize any of these things from a morality standpoint you would have to argue that morality is objective, that good and evil exist.
If good and evil were objective, there would be no need for debate. The fact that people debate morality proves that good and evil are not objective.
If morality is objective then you everyone can agree that something is wrong. If it is not objective but subjective then one person's right cannot supersede another person's wrong. And if society has established their culture in such a way that more people feel that it is ethical to commit genocide than people who oppose it then it is perfectly ethical to commit genocide according to the bit about ethics you told me not to confuse with morality. Because society would be saying genocide is ethical.
Thus, society and these people are not doing anything ethically or morally wrong by committing genocide.
If you truly object to this then at some level you have to believe that morality and ethics are objective and that there are clear-cut rights and wrongs.
Out of my own curiosity I decided to look up the definitions of morality and ethics so we can have a clear cut definition between the two so there is no miscommunication. I went to dictionary.com
Ethics: Noun. 1.) (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles:the ethics of a culture. 2.) (used with a plural verb) the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.:medical ethics;Christian ethics. 3.) (used with a plural verb) moral principles, as of an individual:His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence. 4.) (used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.Compare axiological ethics, deontological ethics.
Morality: Noun. Plural. 1.) conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct. 2.) moral quality or character. 3.) virtue in sexual matters; chastity. 4.) a doctrine or system of morals. 5.) moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance. 6.) morality play.
Of course, the definition for morality didn't do much for this, so I looked up morals.
Moral: Adjective. 1.) of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:moral attitudes. 2.) expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work. 3.) founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom:moral obligations. 4.) capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct:a moral being.
So, with these definitions it is clear that ethics and morality can't really be confused with one another as they are two ways of saying the same thing, with morals being how we ought to live and ethics being how people live in accordance to those morals.
So if morality is subjective then ethics cannot be objective. If ethics are determined by society then society cannot do wrong because it is the moral authority of right and wrong.
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
You aren't wrong though.
When I DM, Dragons are always evil, whether they're metallic or not, there's no such thing as a good dragon. Same with fiends, paladins, orcs, and my least favorite...half orcs.
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Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
When I DM, Dragons are always evil, whether they're metallic or not, there's no such thing as a good dragon. Same with fiends, paladins, orcs, and my least favorite...half orcs.
I'm with ya on the 'dragons are evil' thing. I tend to run my dragons evil as well but perhaps for different reasons. When you're a creature on the top of the food chain, it becomes more efficient to simply embrace that and start feeding on everything below you on that chain. When there isn't a lot of opposition to stop you from doing whatever the hell you want, you just sort of do whatever the hell you want.
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
Treating any given sentient race as universally any given alignment is problematic and feeds into racism generally. It is not 'needed' and not sure why some seem to feel it is needed. There will still be enemies that can be killed, for those who feel the need to kill things.
STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE!!! Poor thing's long dead, do you really have to do this?
If u rlly want to kill something though... Kill rats till u get to lvl 20
Guys really! Stop beating it! Haven’t you had your fill of an argument that has no point? What’s evil or not is decided by YOUR DM, if these details bother you go talk to your DM.
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Hey, guys. I’m not so rich in the knowledge and lore of dragons. I’d love to hear EVERYONE’S story about their encounters or what they love about dragons or dragon lore. As for the question of,” Are dragons evil?” This question should go to your DM, if you don’t like his answer just talk to him about it. It’s nobody’s fault that we all think differently, some of us think dragons shouldn’t be evil, some of us think they are the meaning of evil. Let’s leave these details of evil-or-not and just talk about dragons, not their alignment or choice of foods. Share with each other knowledge and facts about dragons, chances are someone might not have known this. If what you share is home brewed or a preference of you and your DM, that’s ok, it’s awesome in fact! Like I said let me know about everything, I love stories and facts about dragons. If you have a story or encounter about/with a dragon please send me a private message, or if you want everyone else to hear about it, share away! 😊 Let’s just have some fun guys! 😁
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
Treating any given sentient race as universally any given alignment is problematic and feeds into racism generally. It is not 'needed' and not sure why some seem to feel it is needed. There will still be enemies that can be killed, for those who feel the need to kill things.
STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE!!! Poor thing's long dead, do you really have to do this?
If u rlly want to kill something though... Kill rats till u get to lvl 20
Which particular dead horse are you referring to? Curious...
The one where most people in this thread have no problem with a general tendency in alignment connected to race, but other people can't tell the difference between that and declaring all members of a given race match that tendency alignment, no exceptions. Which... frankly, I'm not even sure why that's a topic of discussion. It should be obvious to everyone that these are not the same thing.
Both of them. But all in all, can we all just stop arguing? Please. 😔 These kinda of arguments can break people apart and therefore break communities apart. Kotath, I’m sure you read my post, let’s just leave the whole arguments of yesterday and most of today. What kind of dragons do you like? I don’t know much about dragons in the D&D world and I’d love it if you would and everyone else would tell me about them.
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
I like the way Eberron handles dragons: any dragon of any type can be any alignment.
Does anyone know about dragons in Dark Sun?
Also, on Eberron, how are the dragonmarked Houses related to actual dragons?
Hey PenelopeTheWeaver, can you please tell me what kind of dragons you are talking about? Like, who/what is Eberron? Anyone else who might have the answer for me, feel free to have a go at teaching me about dragons! 🙂
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
Treating any given sentient race as universally any given alignment is problematic and feeds into racism generally. It is not 'needed' and not sure why some seem to feel it is needed. There will still be enemies that can be killed, for those who feel the need to kill things.
STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE!!! Poor thing's long dead, do you really have to do this?
If u rlly want to kill something though... Kill rats till u get to lvl 20
Which particular dead horse are you referring to? Curious...
The one where most people in this thread have no problem with a general tendency in alignment connected to race, but other people can't tell the difference between that and declaring all members of a given race match that tendency alignment, no exceptions. Which... frankly, I'm not even sure why that's a topic of discussion. It should be obvious to everyone that these are not the same thing.
The topics of discussion shouldn’t be about alignments, the alignments of any creature in a campaign is decided by your DM. This place should be used to share knowledge and just have fun discussions. Any bitterness anyone has should be left at the doorstep.
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Ebberon is a steampunk setting for DnD. the dragons of all colours can be any alignment, and the original dragons gave a gift to the races, called dragonmarks. They are basically magical tattoos that you are either born with or develop.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
It’s sad that the amount of times multiple people have said that this entire conversation is a difference among opinions, and they’re right. No one can be 100% sure about the subject at all, we can only theorize about it. I will admit that I was among the people who where part of the argument trying to make a point. Can’t we all just agree that no one can know for sure, unless you’re the one who created the ‘peoples’ and say this, this, and this about your contribution to the world of D&D. If any of you guys are creators of these races (for D&D, of course) then say the correct answer; if not, then people, let’s please end this argument that’s going no where and just start talking about something else that won’t lead us to taint the word community. Please.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
If morality is objective then you everyone can agree that something is wrong. If it is not objective but subjective then one person's right cannot supersede another person's wrong. And if society has established their culture in such a way that more people feel that it is ethical to commit genocide than people who oppose it then it is perfectly ethical to commit genocide according to the bit about ethics you told me not to confuse with morality. Because society would be saying genocide is ethical.
Thus, society and these people are not doing anything ethically or morally wrong by committing genocide.
If you truly object to this then at some level you have to believe that morality and ethics are objective and that there are clear-cut rights and wrongs.
Out of my own curiosity I decided to look up the definitions of morality and ethics so we can have a clear cut definition between the two so there is no miscommunication. I went to dictionary.com
Ethics: Noun. 1.) (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles:the ethics of a culture. 2.) (used with a plural verb) the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.:medical ethics;Christian ethics. 3.) (used with a plural verb) moral principles, as of an individual:His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence. 4.) (used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.Compare axiological ethics, deontological ethics.
Morality: Noun. Plural. 1.) conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct. 2.) moral quality or character. 3.) virtue in sexual matters; chastity. 4.) a doctrine or system of morals. 5.) moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance. 6.) morality play.
Of course, the definition for morality didn't do much for this, so I looked up morals.
Moral: Adjective. 1.) of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:moral attitudes. 2.) expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work. 3.) founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom:moral obligations. 4.) capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct:a moral being.
So, with these definitions it is clear that ethics and morality can't really be confused with one another as they are two ways of saying the same thing, with morals being how we ought to live and ethics being how people live in accordance to those morals.
So if morality is subjective then ethics cannot be objective. If ethics are determined by society then society cannot do wrong because it is the moral authority of right and wrong.
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
You aren't wrong though.
When I DM, Dragons are always evil, whether they're metallic or not, there's no such thing as a good dragon. Same with fiends, paladins, orcs, and my least favorite...half orcs.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
I'm with ya on the 'dragons are evil' thing. I tend to run my dragons evil as well but perhaps for different reasons. When you're a creature on the top of the food chain, it becomes more efficient to simply embrace that and start feeding on everything below you on that chain. When there isn't a lot of opposition to stop you from doing whatever the hell you want, you just sort of do whatever the hell you want.
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I like tabaxis
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE!!! Poor thing's long dead, do you really have to do this?
If u rlly want to kill something though... Kill rats till u get to lvl 20
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
I like the way Eberron handles dragons: any dragon of any type can be any alignment.
Does anyone know about dragons in Dark Sun?
Also, on Eberron, how are the dragonmarked Houses related to actual dragons?
I don’t know about the Dark Sun. Would you please tell me?
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Dark Sun had Chromatic (evil), Metallic (good), and Gemstone (neutral) dragons. Gemstone dragons were also Psionic.
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Guys really! Stop beating it! Haven’t you had your fill of an argument that has no point? What’s evil or not is decided by YOUR DM, if these details bother you go talk to your DM.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Hey, guys. I’m not so rich in the knowledge and lore of dragons. I’d love to hear EVERYONE’S story about their encounters or what they love about dragons or dragon lore. As for the question of,” Are dragons evil?” This question should go to your DM, if you don’t like his answer just talk to him about it. It’s nobody’s fault that we all think differently, some of us think dragons shouldn’t be evil, some of us think they are the meaning of evil. Let’s leave these details of evil-or-not and just talk about dragons, not their alignment or choice of foods. Share with each other knowledge and facts about dragons, chances are someone might not have known this. If what you share is home brewed or a preference of you and your DM, that’s ok, it’s awesome in fact! Like I said let me know about everything, I love stories and facts about dragons. If you have a story or encounter about/with a dragon please send me a private message, or if you want everyone else to hear about it, share away! 😊 Let’s just have some fun guys! 😁
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
The one where most people in this thread have no problem with a general tendency in alignment connected to race, but other people can't tell the difference between that and declaring all members of a given race match that tendency alignment, no exceptions. Which... frankly, I'm not even sure why that's a topic of discussion. It should be obvious to everyone that these are not the same thing.
Both of them. But all in all, can we all just stop arguing? Please. 😔 These kinda of arguments can break people apart and therefore break communities apart. Kotath, I’m sure you read my post, let’s just leave the whole arguments of yesterday and most of today. What kind of dragons do you like? I don’t know much about dragons in the D&D world and I’d love it if you would and everyone else would tell me about them.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Thank you for explaining. Do you have a preference?
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Hey PenelopeTheWeaver, can you please tell me what kind of dragons you are talking about? Like, who/what is Eberron?
Anyone else who might have the answer for me, feel free to have a go at teaching me about dragons! 🙂
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
The topics of discussion shouldn’t be about alignments, the alignments of any creature in a campaign is decided by your DM. This place should be used to share knowledge and just have fun discussions. Any bitterness anyone has should be left at the doorstep.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Ebberon is a steampunk setting for DnD. the dragons of all colours can be any alignment, and the original dragons gave a gift to the races, called dragonmarks. They are basically magical tattoos that you are either born with or develop.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yeah, just not in this specific thread. This thread has seen enough already, even when it remains on topic.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.