You do not need to keep repeatedly slamming the gate into the faces of as many new people as you possibly can. Your ruthless, relentless, ultrahostile gatekeeping and exclusionism is not necessary, nor is it desired. People have the right to want to enjoy a cool game with their friends without the mechanical systems of the game itself stinging their trauma. The fifty year old rules of D&D are not sacrosanct, nor are they a great fit for more modern sensibilities. Your inability to understand other folks' pain doesn't mean that pain isn't there. I'm glad you've never had to deal with anyone trying to assuage their pain, but I'm going to ask you - once - to please reconsider constantly accusing people of seeing imaginary pain that "isn't there".
And there are the exaggerations again because the Elf Rogue has a potential +7 to Stealth and picking locks but the Tiefling only has a +6 for the first few levels, that means the Tiefling sucks at being a Rogue. 🙄
If it makes so little difference, then why is it so important to you that all races have static racial ASIs, and that they are defined and inviolable in the rules?
I feel like when you boil it down, people are just going to say that they feel it is important that the different races have their differences hard coded mechanically into their attribute based capabilities. Which is the exact thing that we've been telling them is a real pain point for real people.
Then again I ask, if you dislike the way the game is designed, why play it instead of a game that has been designed differently? Why force this game to change when there are already other existing games that don’t do that? It’s baffling. So all games need to work the way you want them to but none of them can work the way we want them to? How is that fair?
This the wrong question. WotC made the changes based off of the market. They didn't do it to be altruistic. The data has shown them a trend and they followed it to make as much money as they can. The question should be "Why should WotC keep the same rule set to make you happy at the expense of their bottom line?" None of us as individuals have any sway over WotC and the rules they make. It just turns out that enough people wanted the changes that it affected WotC's profit margins.
You know, I am sure that the Coca-Cola company had what is now a bunch of ex-employees make the statement when it was decided to change the formula of Coke, to New Coke. Are you in the WOTC board room? How do you know what basis they used to make this decision?
To be fair, my friend Golaryn is most likely correct in their statement.
Then again I ask, if you dislike the way the game is designed, why play it instead of a game that has been designed differently? Why force this game to change when there are already other existing games that don’t do that? It’s baffling. So all games need to work the way you want them to but none of them can work the way we want them to? How is that fair?
This is so tiring, you know? You're asking me this as if I've somehow done something to make Wizards take your favorite toy away from you. I did nothing of the sort.
I made no petition, phone calls, or letters. This is something Wizards is doing and I am supporting it. For you to portray it as some sort of offensive action on my, or others, part is starting to feel very attacking, like if this happens I will somehow be at fault or to blame for it.
Yurei explained it before, it is A pain point, not something overwhelming. And as a person of color, small pain points have become the norm. Like I said before, I swim in a sea of racism everyday. At school, at work, grocery shopping, dealing with the government, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc ..... if I let one, two, or sometimes even a dozen pain points turn me away from something I would probably be a hermit in a floating tent in international waters. Forgive me if I grasp at any sign of relief from the death by a hundred million papercuts.
Also, making a neighborhood, hobby, profession, etc hostile to people but not outright banning them from it is a time honored way to drive those people out. I can dig up historical documents about this if you want.
Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
I have spent most of my life sitting on my own pain awash in a sea of blatant homophobia. But I am still able to realize and admit that there were likely instances where I took offense at perceived hostility even when there possibly was none there.
And most of those traits (like powerful build) are generally pretty useless and more than 3/4 of the races have Darkvision. But the Elf’s +2 Dex and the Goliath’s +2 Str actually let them feel different, at least until 4th level and the leveled ASIs start happening. But by then the Players have gotten to know their characters better so the feel different as individuals by them.
Powerful build is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. And its not like the goliath race doesn't get, oh, free Athletics and the ability to reduce damage. Its almost like there's entire suites of abilities with different levels of use, depending on how you use them.
I can always flip the coin on you: If Wizards choose to make all future new content use the new racial/lineage system and it upsets you so much, maybe you just shouldn't use that new content. Sound fair?
They have already announced that is exactly what they are doing, it does upset me, and that’s exactly what folks have been saying to me about it. You don’t have to flip the coin, it was already flipped.
Also, making a neighborhood, hobby, profession, etc hostile to people but not outright banning them from it is a time honored way to drive those people out. I can dig up historical documents about this if you want.
Kinda like how someone keeps asking "why are you still playing?" yet protesting that they're not gatekeeping?
You do not need to keep repeatedly slamming the gate into the faces of as many new people as you possibly can. Your ruthless, relentless, ultrahostile gatekeeping and exclusionism is not necessary, nor is it desired. People have the right to want to enjoy a cool game with their friends without the mechanical systems of the game itself stinging their trauma. The fifty year old rules of D&D are not sacrosanct, nor are they a great fit for more modern sensibilities. Your inability to understand other folks' pain doesn't mean that pain isn't there. I'm glad you've never had to deal with anyone trying to assuage their pain, but I'm going to ask you - once - to please reconsider constantly accusing people of seeing imaginary pain that "isn't there".
You keep attacking me, accruing actions to me that are simply not there.
And most of those traits (like powerful build) are generally pretty useless and more than 3/4 of the races have Darkvision. But the Elf’s +2 Dex and the Goliath’s +2 Str actually let them feel different, at least until 4th level and the leveled ASIs start happening. But by then the Players have gotten to know their characters better so the feel different as individuals by them.
Powerful build is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. And its not like the goliath race doesn't get, oh, free Athletics and the ability to reduce damage. Its almost like there's entire suites of abilities with different levels of use, depending on how you use them.
When the heck has powerful build been useful after the party picks up a Bag of Holding or some equivalent?!?
I can always flip the coin on you: If Wizards choose to make all future new content use the new racial/lineage system and it upsets you so much, maybe you just shouldn't use that new content. Sound fair?
They have already announced that is exactly what they are doing, it does upset me, and that’s exactly what folks have been saying to me about it. You don’t have to flip the coin, it was already flipped.
I can always flip the coin on you: If Wizards choose to make all future new content use the new racial/lineage system and it upsets you so much, maybe you just shouldn't use that new content. Sound fair?
They have already announced that is exactly what they are doing, it does upset me, and that’s exactly what folks have been saying to me about it. You don’t have to flip the coin, it was already flipped.
I will admit I am guilt of this. Sorry.
Thank you. Lei è molto gentile.
Bringing that to light (not just on your part) is exactly part of what I have been trying to point out.
Also, making a neighborhood, hobby, profession, etc hostile to people but not outright banning them from it is a time honored way to drive those people out. I can dig up historical documents about this if you want.
Kinda like how someone keeps asking "why are you still playing?" yet protesting that they're not gatekeeping?
I’m not telling people to not play, just wondering why they do?
Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
I see your point, but the difference between intentionally making something hostile and allowing something to remain hostile once you are made aware that it is that way is very small.
I have spent most of my life sitting on my own pain awash in a sea of blatant homophobia. But I am still able to realize and admit that there were likely instances where I took offense at perceived hostility even when there possibly was none there.
[REDACTED] Even if you may have been too quick to take offense, it doesn't mean that your pain should be dismissed. It is real and it is a product of a lifetime of hurt. Those who are privileged to have never felt that hurt are obligated, once they are made aware of it, that they wield the same power that a bull in a china shop does.
And most of those traits (like powerful build) are generally pretty useless and more than 3/4 of the races have Darkvision. But the Elf’s +2 Dex and the Goliath’s +2 Str actually let them feel different, at least until 4th level and the leveled ASIs start happening. But by then the Players have gotten to know their characters better so the feel different as individuals by them.
Powerful build is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. And its not like the goliath race doesn't get, oh, free Athletics and the ability to reduce damage. Its almost like there's entire suites of abilities with different levels of use, depending on how you use them.
When the heck has powerful build been useful after the party picks up a Bag of Holding or some equivalent?!?
I actually really like powerful build. I had a Goliath Wizard (fairly short lived to be honest) that was able to carry his own gear in spite of a 7 Strength (yes I put the 5 I rolled into Str). It may not have an impact on combat, but the ability itself is very cool.
And most of those traits (like powerful build) are generally pretty useless and more than 3/4 of the races have Darkvision. But the Elf’s +2 Dex and the Goliath’s +2 Str actually let them feel different, at least until 4th level and the leveled ASIs start happening. But by then the Players have gotten to know their characters better so the feel different as individuals by them.
Powerful build is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. And its not like the goliath race doesn't get, oh, free Athletics and the ability to reduce damage. Its almost like there's entire suites of abilities with different levels of use, depending on how you use them.
When the heck has powerful build been useful after the party picks up a Bag of Holding or some equivalent?!?
When that campaign/DM doesn't give you a bag of holding. When someone in the party needs to push/drag/lift and object that would be tedious even for someone with 20 Str. Being able to carry two allies to safety rather than one.
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Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
Just because the guy who invented TNT had intended on it being used for construction work and not war, doesn't mean that TNT isn't a pretty nasty explosive that hurt lots of people. And that same guy, Alfred Nobel, later went on to establish the Nobel Peace Prize out of horror at what his invention was doing, and wanted to change the world for the better.
Lots of people do things that hurt others. Very few of them are on purpose. But that doesn't change the fact that People. Are. Getting. Hurt.
There's a difference between hostile, and people being hurt. There are times when its done out of ignorance, or lashing out in pain, or any number of other reasons.
Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
I see your point, but the difference between intentionally making something hostile and allowing something to remain hostile once you are made aware that it is that way is very small.
I have spent most of my life sitting on my own pain awash in a sea of blatant homophobia. But I am still able to realize and admit that there were likely instances where I took offense at perceived hostility even when there possibly was none there.
Solidarity, fellow queer. Even if you may have been too quick to take offense, it doesn't mean that your pain should be dismissed. It is real and it is a product of a lifetime of hurt. Those who are privileged to have never felt that hurt are obligated, once they are made aware of it, that they wield the same power that a bull in a china shop does.
Sometime a person just has to admit to themselves when they’re being a little over sensitive. Just because I was hurt doesn’t mean that something was genuinely hurtful. Also, most of the time that bull is harmless.
Also, making a neighborhood, hobby, profession, etc hostile to people but not outright banning them from it is a time honored way to drive those people out. I can dig up historical documents about this if you want.
Kinda like how someone keeps asking "why are you still playing?" yet protesting that they're not gatekeeping?
I’m not telling people to not play, just wondering why they do?
Repeatedly comparing people trying to change something to bashing their testicles with a hammer is...distasteful, to say the least. Do you not see the irony in repeatedly bringing that joke up?
Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
Just because the guy who invented TNT had intended on it being used for construction work and not war, doesn't mean that TNT isn't a pretty nasty explosive that hurt lots of people. And that same guy, Alfred Nobel, later went on to establish the Nobel Peace Prize out of horror at what his invention was doing, and wanted to change the world for the better.
Lots of people do things that hurt others. Very few of them are on purpose. But that doesn't change the fact that People. Are. Getting. Hurt.
There's a difference between hostile, and people being hurt. There are times when its done out of ignorance, or lashing out in pain, or any number of other reasons.
But Nobel didn’t hurt those people, other people hurt those people by using Nobel’s invention. But if he hadn’t invented TNT they would have just used something else to hurt each other. The blame lies not with Nobel nor with TNT, but with those malicious enough to intentionally hurt others.
I've told you a hundred thousand times why I'm still playing this game, Sposta. You've rejected my reasons and actively told me to leave D&D and DDB to go and run Savage Worlds instead. You're not "just wondering" why people are playing 5e, you're telling folks that if they don't want to play your specific version of 5e they should quit and play a different game so you can keep the version of 5e where your parentage is the only thing that matters or has any impact whatsoever on your talents or abilities as a person.
I dun' wanna. I will think about running Savage Worlds when it doesn't require me to spend a thousand dollars to outfit my entire gaming group with Foundry before spending six months trying to figure out how the bloody **** Foundry works before playing our first game. In the interim? I can play 5ee for what it does right, I can lament what it does poorly, I can fix what few things I'm allowed to fix, and I can celebrate when Wizards of the Coast manages to not be Wizards of the Coast for five consecutive seconds and does something that makes its product line better.
Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
I see your point, but the difference between intentionally making something hostile and allowing something to remain hostile once you are made aware that it is that way is very small.
I have spent most of my life sitting on my own pain awash in a sea of blatant homophobia. But I am still able to realize and admit that there were likely instances where I took offense at perceived hostility even when there possibly was none there.
Solidarity, fellow queer. Even if you may have been too quick to take offense, it doesn't mean that your pain should be dismissed. It is real and it is a product of a lifetime of hurt. Those who are privileged to have never felt that hurt are obligated, once they are made aware of it, that they wield the same power that a bull in a china shop does.
Sometime a person just has to admit to themselves when they’re being a little over sensitive. Just because I was hurt doesn’t mean that something was genuinely hurtful. Also, most of the time that bull is harmless.
That was a poorly done experiment. Those shelves had far more clearance than would have been available in an actual shop.
Vince.
You do not need to keep repeatedly slamming the gate into the faces of as many new people as you possibly can. Your ruthless, relentless, ultrahostile gatekeeping and exclusionism is not necessary, nor is it desired. People have the right to want to enjoy a cool game with their friends without the mechanical systems of the game itself stinging their trauma. The fifty year old rules of D&D are not sacrosanct, nor are they a great fit for more modern sensibilities. Your inability to understand other folks' pain doesn't mean that pain isn't there. I'm glad you've never had to deal with anyone trying to assuage their pain, but I'm going to ask you - once - to please reconsider constantly accusing people of seeing imaginary pain that "isn't there".
Please do not contact or message me.
To be fair, my friend Golaryn is most likely correct in their statement.
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Has it ever even occurred to you that nobody actually “made” anything hostile and that it is just being taken that way? Or should I go back and report that post of your that offended me? Because, even though you didn’t intend to offend me it offended me so therefore you were being hostile even though you weren’t?
I have spent most of my life sitting on my own pain awash in a sea of blatant homophobia. But I am still able to realize and admit that there were likely instances where I took offense at perceived hostility even when there possibly was none there.
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Powerful build is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. And its not like the goliath race doesn't get, oh, free Athletics and the ability to reduce damage. Its almost like there's entire suites of abilities with different levels of use, depending on how you use them.
They have already announced that is exactly what they are doing, it does upset me, and that’s exactly what folks have been saying to me about it. You don’t have to flip the coin, it was already flipped.
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Kinda like how someone keeps asking "why are you still playing?" yet protesting that they're not gatekeeping?
You keep attacking me, accruing actions to me that are simply not there.
When the heck has powerful build been useful after the party picks up a Bag of Holding or some equivalent?!?
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I will admit I am guilt of this. Sorry.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Thank you. Lei è molto gentile.
Bringing that to light (not just on your part) is exactly part of what I have been trying to point out.
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I’m not telling people to not play, just wondering why they do?
I’m reminded of a joke my father once told me....
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/96326-no-more-normal-races?comment=281
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I see your point, but the difference between intentionally making something hostile and allowing something to remain hostile once you are made aware that it is that way is very small.
[REDACTED] Even if you may have been too quick to take offense, it doesn't mean that your pain should be dismissed. It is real and it is a product of a lifetime of hurt. Those who are privileged to have never felt that hurt are obligated, once they are made aware of it, that they wield the same power that a bull in a china shop does.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I actually really like powerful build. I had a Goliath Wizard (fairly short lived to be honest) that was able to carry his own gear in spite of a 7 Strength (yes I put the 5 I rolled into Str). It may not have an impact on combat, but the ability itself is very cool.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
When that campaign/DM doesn't give you a bag of holding. When someone in the party needs to push/drag/lift and object that would be tedious even for someone with 20 Str. Being able to carry two allies to safety rather than one.
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Just because the guy who invented TNT had intended on it being used for construction work and not war, doesn't mean that TNT isn't a pretty nasty explosive that hurt lots of people. And that same guy, Alfred Nobel, later went on to establish the Nobel Peace Prize out of horror at what his invention was doing, and wanted to change the world for the better.
Lots of people do things that hurt others. Very few of them are on purpose. But that doesn't change the fact that People. Are. Getting. Hurt.
There's a difference between hostile, and people being hurt. There are times when its done out of ignorance, or lashing out in pain, or any number of other reasons.
Sometime a person just has to admit to themselves when they’re being a little over sensitive. Just because I was hurt doesn’t mean that something was genuinely hurtful. Also, most of the time that bull is harmless.
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Repeatedly comparing people trying to change something to bashing their testicles with a hammer is...distasteful, to say the least. Do you not see the irony in repeatedly bringing that joke up?
But Nobel didn’t hurt those people, other people hurt those people by using Nobel’s invention. But if he hadn’t invented TNT they would have just used something else to hurt each other. The blame lies not with Nobel nor with TNT, but with those malicious enough to intentionally hurt others.
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I've told you a hundred thousand times why I'm still playing this game, Sposta. You've rejected my reasons and actively told me to leave D&D and DDB to go and run Savage Worlds instead. You're not "just wondering" why people are playing 5e, you're telling folks that if they don't want to play your specific version of 5e they should quit and play a different game so you can keep the version of 5e where your parentage is the only thing that matters or has any impact whatsoever on your talents or abilities as a person.
I dun' wanna. I will think about running Savage Worlds when it doesn't require me to spend a thousand dollars to outfit my entire gaming group with Foundry before spending six months trying to figure out how the bloody **** Foundry works before playing our first game. In the interim? I can play 5ee for what it does right, I can lament what it does poorly, I can fix what few things I'm allowed to fix, and I can celebrate when Wizards of the Coast manages to not be Wizards of the Coast for five consecutive seconds and does something that makes its product line better.
Please do not contact or message me.
That was a poorly done experiment. Those shelves had far more clearance than would have been available in an actual shop.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master