What does the 1d10 mean for the katana if the damage is 1d8
Weapons with the Versatile weapon property, like the Longsword have two damage dice, because they can be used either one-handed or two-handed. The smaller one, the 1d8 on the Longsword’s damage, are for when the weapon is being used one handed, the larger die, the 1d10 listed on the Longsword, is for when the weapon is being used two-handed.
I'm pro the katana as reskinned longsword argument, and people who cite "historical accuracy" and weapons specification to show why the katana should have and "finesse" and "light" and all those extra properties should also remember that the katana historically only ever had a very niche use. Historically, samurai favored polearms, and katana due to being made of folded steel are extremely brittle and subject to breakage if one were to try and sword fight with one in the traditional western style common in most D&D games. More often than not, in a fight between two people with katanas, the blades will never touch, and the fight will be over after the first blow.
And all that historically accurate info would make for some bad gameplay. If anything, saying you can use a katana as a reskinned longsword ignores a lot of limitations of the katana, for the better, allowing players to still have one if they think it's cool without being penalized for it.
I reported this thread months ago when a 2 year old dead thread was necro'd. That report was never acted on and now this thread has grown more powerful in undeath than it ever was in life. I dub this a lich thread.
If I am going to comment in an undead thread and be part of the problem, I might as well weigh in on the discussion.
Maybe this hypothetical katana can be a more expensive (~25gp) versatile longsword that also has a drawback akin to the misfire property, so if the dice roll is like a 2 or less the blade breaks.
Even just gets damaged, -1 to damage rolls. Maybe to hit rolls as well.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Interesting reading most of these post. But, I wonder who has actually handled Longswords and Katanas or actually researched them.
Generally, Katanas weigh more than Longswords. Both swords weight 2lbs to 3.5lbs. So, the difference in weight isn't that much. Those that are skilled with both blades say that the weapons are very similar, the biggest difference is the technique used with the weapon. There is an essay on The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts website (by John Clements) that I recommend, Longsword and Katana Considered.
I think D&D does a very good job in simplifying weapons and armor. Sure you can homebrew and add things as you like. In reading this discussion it appears more than a few have an idea of what they believe the katana is; that is not backed up with how it actually works. And that's okay. This is a fantasy game, and if you want a weapon like that, go for it.
FWIW, in my world, Katanas and Longswords can do either Slashing or Piercing damage. You can thrust with either weapon, so in my mind, that's piercing damage. The Longsword is better at piercing and the Katana is better at cutting. I'll let the player decide the damage type during the attack, and modify the damage accordingly. Between campaigns I've gone between +1, +2 damage or increasing the critical range by 1 when using a Longsword for piercing or Katana for slashing damage.
You gain proficiency in either Acrobatics or Performance. When you add your proficiency bonus to the roll, add double instead.
Any martial melee weapon you wield that lacks the heavy or reach property gains the finesse property.
So, this enables a longsword to be reflavoured as a katana, whether you use it in one or two hands. Because the ability is less for power the expertise in acrobatics or performance seems appropriate compensation. I considered +1 dex but feel that is TOO powerful in this scenario.
Also the restriction to martial weapons is explicitly to prevent a quarterstaff due to the synergy with polearm master being too much (and seeing a Rogue be able to sneak attack with a reaction strike from it) as well as the reach restriction to prevent finesse lances.
A Katana is a Japanese Longsword. Why not just reskin the Longsword?
It's not really though. It's more of an arming sword, capable of being used two handed. A longsword is much longer, and there should /never/ be a finesse two handed weapon with D10 damage.
It is according to the DMG pg41 which specifically says a katana is just another name for longsword in your wuxia themed games. However, of course everyone is free to do what they like to make their own games interesting & fun!!
A simple option is presented in the DMG, finesse+light for the shorter wakizashi type katana (aka scimitar), & versatile only for the full katana (aka longsword).
The argument for finesse in a katana is understandable because we all like the idea of ninja & samurai being swift & agile. but perhaps we are projecting dex-finesse onto this weapon from things we see in movies & games? It's not really a short subtle weapon like a dagger or rapier that can agilely stab close up in the blink of an eye . It's a pretty long & obvious blade; its stikes are not really sleight-of-hand.
Reskin Longsword as Katan, double price and give it +1 slash damage only. Being uncommon or even rare in some settings. Makes it diffrent but not game breaking.
A Katana is a Japanese Longsword. Why not just reskin the Longsword?
It's not really though. It's more of an arming sword, capable of being used two handed. A longsword is much longer, and there should /never/ be a finesse two handed weapon with D10 damage.
It is according to the DMG pg41 which specifically says a katana is just another name for longsword in your wuxia themed games. However, of course everyone is free to do what they like to make their own games interesting & fun!!
A simple option is presented in the DMG, finesse+light for the shorter wakizashi type katana (aka scimitar), & versatile only for the full katana (aka longsword).
The argument for finesse in a katana is understandable because we all like the idea of ninja & samurai being swift & agile. but perhaps we are projecting dex-finesse onto this weapon from things we see in movies & games? It's not really a short subtle weapon like a dagger or rapier that can agilely stab close up in the blink of an eye . It's a pretty long & obvious blade; its stikes are not really sleight-of-hand.
I think people project finesse in there because they want to. Katanas are still cutters, and it takes power to cut through armor; there's nothing finesse about it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Katana/Longsword - Versatil, Finesse why?; because reskined a SunBlade without +1 and radiant effects. maybe for flavor +15GP to buy it. Wakizashi/Shortsword - Finesse, Light. Boths are Slashing
I don't see diference in a longsword STR +4 to DEX +4 / 1d20+STR or DEX and 1d8+4 or 1d10+4 only the luck can decide.
The balancing factor I use for adding finesse to the katana is that it is an EXOTIC (martial) weapon in western campaigns. As an exotic weapon, it requires a separate proficiency to use and is at least one rarity class higher (with corresponding price tag.)
I do the same thing with other eastern weapons like the Naginata. Among other things, this gives a character incentive to take the otherwise largely useless weapons master feat.
A Katana is a Japanese Longsword. Why not just reskin the Longsword?
It's not really though. It's more of an arming sword, capable of being used two handed. A longsword is much longer, and there should /never/ be a finesse two handed weapon with D10 damage.
It is according to the DMG pg41 which specifically says a katana is just another name for longsword in your wuxia themed games. However, of course everyone is free to do what they like to make their own games interesting & fun!!
A simple option is presented in the DMG, finesse+light for the shorter wakizashi type katana (aka scimitar), & versatile only for the full katana (aka longsword).
The argument for finesse in a katana is understandable because we all like the idea of ninja & samurai being swift & agile. but perhaps we are projecting dex-finesse onto this weapon from things we see in movies & games? It's not really a short subtle weapon like a dagger or rapier that can agilely stab close up in the blink of an eye . It's a pretty long & obvious blade; its stikes are not really sleight-of-hand.
I think people project finesse in there because they want to. Katanas are still cutters, and it takes power to cut through armor; there's nothing finesse about it.
There is a difference. The blade sharpness is of especial note. Western longswords, hand and a half and greatswords like the claymore were sharpened to the same bevel as an axe, requiring strength to push through the cut. The katana blade is closer to that of a razor, even a weak person could wreak havok with one.
That is actually the interesting part, an ancient meme: "Exotic = better".
The meme is to go to a far off land and achieve X. Weather we are talking magic powers, enlightenment. or anything else. Superman can't be from Earth, because otherwise why not everyone?
The problem with that is there are people living in that far off land - why aren't THEY all enlightened? And therefore, why don't they rule the world via the advantages of enlightenment. Sort of like how Alexander the Great did, and the Roman Empire did, and Ghengis Khan did and Napoleon did and the British Empire did.
Foreign/exotic != better, otherwise you get conquered and you BECOME the foreign/exotic.
I see no problem at all with making a weapon that is superior to the existing weapons. It's called a MAGIC item. If you really truly do not want it to be Magic, we got an answer for that too - Special Materials (i.e. Adamantine, Mithral, etc.). The rareness of that material makes for a far better excuse than 'exotic'.
The other option is to make a special feat, as Drawfonaf did, but I dislike using "weapon master" The Bonuses to Strength and Dex limit what the feat should do, in my opinion.
Instead I would use a feat specified for the weapon, such as "Katana Master". Start with a definition of Katan that makes it clear that it is a long sword: "A Katana is a long sword with a thin blade and a slight curve. Anyone proficient with Long Sword can use a Katana. Katana's are difficult to make, and require someone with expertise with smith tools. "
Then add the feat Katana Master: "Your skill with the use of the Katana allows you to treat it as a finesse weapon for all purposes. Anything that can be done with any other finesse weapon you can do with a Katana. In addition, drawing the Katana is very easy to do, you gain +1 to your initiative roll if you use the katana for your first strike. Finally you can put away a long bow and draw your Katana as a single free action."
Note the thing about putting away a long bow - Samurai were actually better known for using the long bow than using the Katana. In reality it was more of a back up weapon.
The balancing factor I use for adding finesse to the katana is that it is an EXOTIC (martial) weapon in western campaigns. As an exotic weapon, it requires a separate proficiency to use and is at least one rarity class higher (with corresponding price tag.)
I do the same thing with other eastern weapons like the Naginata. Among other things, this gives a character incentive to take the otherwise largely useless weapons master feat.
A Katana is a Japanese Longsword. Why not just reskin the Longsword?
It's not really though. It's more of an arming sword, capable of being used two handed. A longsword is much longer, and there should /never/ be a finesse two handed weapon with D10 damage.
It is according to the DMG pg41 which specifically says a katana is just another name for longsword in your wuxia themed games. However, of course everyone is free to do what they like to make their own games interesting & fun!!
A simple option is presented in the DMG, finesse+light for the shorter wakizashi type katana (aka scimitar), & versatile only for the full katana (aka longsword).
The argument for finesse in a katana is understandable because we all like the idea of ninja & samurai being swift & agile. but perhaps we are projecting dex-finesse onto this weapon from things we see in movies & games? It's not really a short subtle weapon like a dagger or rapier that can agilely stab close up in the blink of an eye . It's a pretty long & obvious blade; its stikes are not really sleight-of-hand.
I think people project finesse in there because they want to. Katanas are still cutters, and it takes power to cut through armor; there's nothing finesse about it.
There is a difference. The blade sharpness is of especial note. Western longswords, hand and a half and greatswords like the claymore were sharpened to the same bevel as an axe, requiring strength to push through the cut. The katana blade is closer to that of a razor, even a weak person could wreak havok with one.
This is more myth than fact.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
There is a difference. The blade sharpness is of especial note. Western longswords, hand and a half and greatswords like the claymore were sharpened to the same bevel as an axe, requiring strength to push through the cut. The katana blade is closer to that of a razor, even a weak person could wreak havok with one.
I just ruled that a Katana is a re-skinned Longsword and called it a day.
The easiest and most elegant solution.
According to the DMG pg 41, also the RAW solution.
An alternative name changes none of the weapon’s properties as they are described in the Player’s Handbook.
Longsword
jian (China); katana (Japan)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I think the biggest reason folks want the Finesse property is to use sneak attack which requires a Finesse or ranged weapon to work and they want to backstab with a 2 handed weapon. I say increase the price of the longsword a lot give it finesse when used 1 handed only, so the player has the choice of finesse 1 handed weapon that they can drop finesse to use the weapon as a d10 2 hander.
I think the biggest reason folks want the Finesse property is to use sneak attack which requires a Finesse or ranged weapon to work and they want to backstab with a 2 handed weapon. I say increase the price of the longsword a lot give it finesse when used 1 handed only, so the player has the choice of finesse 1 handed weapon that they can drop finesse to use the weapon as a d10 2 hander.
That’s the most ridiculous reason to want a d10 finesse weapon ever. That 1-2 point difference in damage is irrelevant when you’re doing multiple d6 additional sneak attack damage. I would think Dex builds without sneak attack would want it more.
It is ridiculous, but that's how a lot of people think.
Personally, if a player really wanted to argue over it, I'd probably say "sure, you can have your finesse katana". A katana blade and a scimitar/saber blade are not much different in what's really important: shape and length. Scimitar/saber is a d6 weapon. Versatile adds one damage die when used two handed. So, you have a two handed slashing rapier. Congratulations. I would never, ever allow a player to have a 2 handed finesse weapon with d10 damage short of magic items on general principle. if you want two use two hands on your weapon, use strength. Dexterity does not need any more benefits.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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Weapons with the Versatile weapon property, like the Longsword have two damage dice, because they can be used either one-handed or two-handed. The smaller one, the 1d8 on the Longsword’s damage, are for when the weapon is being used one handed, the larger die, the 1d10 listed on the Longsword, is for when the weapon is being used two-handed.
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I'm pro the katana as reskinned longsword argument, and people who cite "historical accuracy" and weapons specification to show why the katana should have and "finesse" and "light" and all those extra properties should also remember that the katana historically only ever had a very niche use. Historically, samurai favored polearms, and katana due to being made of folded steel are extremely brittle and subject to breakage if one were to try and sword fight with one in the traditional western style common in most D&D games. More often than not, in a fight between two people with katanas, the blades will never touch, and the fight will be over after the first blow.
And all that historically accurate info would make for some bad gameplay. If anything, saying you can use a katana as a reskinned longsword ignores a lot of limitations of the katana, for the better, allowing players to still have one if they think it's cool without being penalized for it.
I reported this thread months ago when a 2 year old dead thread was necro'd. That report was never acted on and now this thread has grown more powerful in undeath than it ever was in life. I dub this a lich thread.
If I am going to comment in an undead thread and be part of the problem, I might as well weigh in on the discussion.
Maybe this hypothetical katana can be a more expensive (~25gp) versatile longsword that also has a drawback akin to the misfire property, so if the dice roll is like a 2 or less the blade breaks.
Even just gets damaged, -1 to damage rolls. Maybe to hit rolls as well.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Interesting reading most of these post. But, I wonder who has actually handled Longswords and Katanas or actually researched them.
Generally, Katanas weigh more than Longswords. Both swords weight 2lbs to 3.5lbs. So, the difference in weight isn't that much. Those that are skilled with both blades say that the weapons are very similar, the biggest difference is the technique used with the weapon. There is an essay on The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts website (by John Clements) that I recommend, Longsword and Katana Considered.
I think D&D does a very good job in simplifying weapons and armor. Sure you can homebrew and add things as you like. In reading this discussion it appears more than a few have an idea of what they believe the katana is; that is not backed up with how it actually works. And that's okay. This is a fantasy game, and if you want a weapon like that, go for it.
FWIW, in my world, Katanas and Longswords can do either Slashing or Piercing damage. You can thrust with either weapon, so in my mind, that's piercing damage. The Longsword is better at piercing and the Katana is better at cutting. I'll let the player decide the damage type during the attack, and modify the damage accordingly. Between campaigns I've gone between +1, +2 damage or increasing the critical range by 1 when using a Longsword for piercing or Katana for slashing damage.
You are much better off creating a feat such as:
Graceful Execution
Dex 13+
You gain proficiency in either Acrobatics or Performance. When you add your proficiency bonus to the roll, add double instead.
Any martial melee weapon you wield that lacks the heavy or reach property gains the finesse property.
So, this enables a longsword to be reflavoured as a katana, whether you use it in one or two hands. Because the ability is less for power the expertise in acrobatics or performance seems appropriate compensation. I considered +1 dex but feel that is TOO powerful in this scenario.
Also the restriction to martial weapons is explicitly to prevent a quarterstaff due to the synergy with polearm master being too much (and seeing a Rogue be able to sneak attack with a reaction strike from it) as well as the reach restriction to prevent finesse lances.
It is according to the DMG pg41 which specifically says a katana is just another name for longsword in your wuxia themed games.
However, of course everyone is free to do what they like to make their own games interesting & fun!!
A simple option is presented in the DMG, finesse+light for the shorter wakizashi type katana (aka scimitar), & versatile only for the full katana (aka longsword).
The argument for finesse in a katana is understandable because we all like the idea of ninja & samurai being swift & agile. but perhaps we are projecting dex-finesse onto this weapon from things we see in movies & games? It's not really a short subtle weapon like a dagger or rapier that can agilely stab close up in the blink of an eye . It's a pretty long & obvious blade; its stikes are not really sleight-of-hand.
Reskin Longsword as Katan, double price and give it +1 slash damage only. Being uncommon or even rare in some settings. Makes it diffrent but not game breaking.
I think people project finesse in there because they want to. Katanas are still cutters, and it takes power to cut through armor; there's nothing finesse about it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Like DM i'm can Allow this:
Katana/Longsword - Versatil, Finesse why?; because reskined a SunBlade without +1 and radiant effects. maybe for flavor +15GP to buy it.
Wakizashi/Shortsword - Finesse, Light. Boths are Slashing
I don't see diference in a longsword STR +4 to DEX +4 / 1d20+STR or DEX and 1d8+4 or 1d10+4 only the luck can decide.
Ditto. Slashing rapier is a saber.
The balancing factor I use for adding finesse to the katana is that it is an EXOTIC (martial) weapon in western campaigns. As an exotic weapon, it requires a separate proficiency to use and is at least one rarity class higher (with corresponding price tag.)
I do the same thing with other eastern weapons like the Naginata. Among other things, this gives a character incentive to take the otherwise largely useless weapons master feat.
There is a difference. The blade sharpness is of especial note. Western longswords, hand and a half and greatswords like the claymore were sharpened to the same bevel as an axe, requiring strength to push through the cut. The katana blade is closer to that of a razor, even a weak person could wreak havok with one.
That is actually the interesting part, an ancient meme: "Exotic = better".
The meme is to go to a far off land and achieve X. Weather we are talking magic powers, enlightenment. or anything else. Superman can't be from Earth, because otherwise why not everyone?
The problem with that is there are people living in that far off land - why aren't THEY all enlightened? And therefore, why don't they rule the world via the advantages of enlightenment. Sort of like how Alexander the Great did, and the Roman Empire did, and Ghengis Khan did and Napoleon did and the British Empire did.
Foreign/exotic != better, otherwise you get conquered and you BECOME the foreign/exotic.
I see no problem at all with making a weapon that is superior to the existing weapons. It's called a MAGIC item. If you really truly do not want it to be Magic, we got an answer for that too - Special Materials (i.e. Adamantine, Mithral, etc.). The rareness of that material makes for a far better excuse than 'exotic'.
The other option is to make a special feat, as Drawfonaf did, but I dislike using "weapon master" The Bonuses to Strength and Dex limit what the feat should do, in my opinion.
Instead I would use a feat specified for the weapon, such as "Katana Master". Start with a definition of Katan that makes it clear that it is a long sword: "A Katana is a long sword with a thin blade and a slight curve. Anyone proficient with Long Sword can use a Katana. Katana's are difficult to make, and require someone with expertise with smith tools. "
Then add the feat Katana Master: "Your skill with the use of the Katana allows you to treat it as a finesse weapon for all purposes. Anything that can be done with any other finesse weapon you can do with a Katana. In addition, drawing the Katana is very easy to do, you gain +1 to your initiative roll if you use the katana for your first strike. Finally you can put away a long bow and draw your Katana as a single free action."
Note the thing about putting away a long bow - Samurai were actually better known for using the long bow than using the Katana. In reality it was more of a back up weapon.
I just ruled that a Katana is a re-skinned Longsword and called it a day.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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This is more myth than fact.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is a fiction.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
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Content Troubleshooting
The easiest and most elegant solution.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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According to the DMG pg 41, also the RAW solution.
An alternative name changes none of the weapon’s properties as they are described in the Player’s Handbook.
Longsword
jian (China); katana (Japan)
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think the biggest reason folks want the Finesse property is to use sneak attack which requires a Finesse or ranged weapon to work and they want to backstab with a 2 handed weapon. I say increase the price of the longsword a lot give it finesse when used 1 handed only, so the player has the choice of finesse 1 handed weapon that they can drop finesse to use the weapon as a d10 2 hander.
That’s the most ridiculous reason to want a d10 finesse weapon ever. That 1-2 point difference in damage is irrelevant when you’re doing multiple d6 additional sneak attack damage. I would think Dex builds without sneak attack would want it more.
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It is ridiculous, but that's how a lot of people think.
Personally, if a player really wanted to argue over it, I'd probably say "sure, you can have your finesse katana". A katana blade and a scimitar/saber blade are not much different in what's really important: shape and length. Scimitar/saber is a d6 weapon. Versatile adds one damage die when used two handed. So, you have a two handed slashing rapier. Congratulations. I would never, ever allow a player to have a 2 handed finesse weapon with d10 damage short of magic items on general principle. if you want two use two hands on your weapon, use strength. Dexterity does not need any more benefits.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha