Except that much of the functional aspect of this product is already available for free elsewhere.
If you're talking about non-SRD content, show me a legal resource where it's free?
Right now, I'm using a character app on my iphone that is free unless you want leveling up, which was 2.99. It's not the books, but I've yet to need anything in character maintenance other than what hasn't been added from Volo's. Really, I think it's hard to tell players to pay for digital tools. Full content for GM stuff I can see charging for, even if people own the books, but races and classes is a much harder sell. That stuff's going to have to be super cheap, at least the tools to use the books they already have. Optimally, the vast majority of character creation stuff, especially races, should be essentially free. It's too little information to pay for.
Gave me a thought, though it's a bit of a pipe dream.
It could be super awesome for gamers if players/gamers could buy the content they already own at a discount, this could be doable if WotC published future books with a redeemable "code" of some sorts inside their products to get the same content for free/cheap at D&DB.
Like I said it's a bit of a pipe dream, but wouldn't that be a cool compromise?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
It could be super awesome for gamers if players/gamers could buy the content they already own at a discount, this could be doable if WotC published future books with a redeemable "code" of some sorts inside their products to get the same content for free/cheap at D&DB.
You made that sound unlikely, but it has solid merit. The books are not cheap and most of us "old school" players prefer the books. But newer players are all about the digital age and PDF's and such, so a more difficult sell to them. But if both electronic and hard bound books came with a link to a "player level" dndbeyond, that would be a huge motivator. A good way for WotC to do that would be to give away or provide an inexpensive "code" to use dndbeyond. This project has to make the company money, but this isn't being created in a vacuum, there is an existing business out there that could help subsidize it's existence and it is in both their interests for this project to succeed. There are a lot of existing programs that deal with D&D and they exist because people buy their products - so a market exists. It would be nice if dndbeyond was a welcoming product that can work for everyone, not just the fiscally blessed. Creating a low cost "code" or providing it with a book purchase is a great motivator. People want a deal: offering a discount if you buy a book is a great deal.
Overall, I agree. If you can provide proof that you purchased a hard copy (book) then a discount to DNDBeyond makes sense. The challenge for the WofC / Curse or DNDBeyond is users scraping the content and creating their owe PDFs once they have access. Essentially, with DNDBeyound you're getting 3+ books worth of content and growing, so at full price that's a $150 dollar value. I wouldn't be surprised to see a DNDBeyond switch to a subscription based model, with ongoing content additions and updates.
I'd also like to see digital copies of all of the latest campaigns.
It could be super awesome for gamers if players/gamers could buy the content they already own at a discount, this could be doable if WotC published future books with a redeemable "code" of some sorts inside their products to get the same content for free/cheap at D&DB.
You made that sound unlikely, but it has solid merit. The books are not cheap and most of us "old school" players prefer the books. But newer players are all about the digital age and PDF's and such, so a more difficult sell to them. But if both electronic and hard bound books came with a link to a "player level" dndbeyond, that would be a huge motivator. A good way for WotC to do that would be to give away or provide an inexpensive "code" to use dndbeyond. This project has to make the company money, but this isn't being created in a vacuum, there is an existing business out there that could help subsidize it's existence and it is in both their interests for this project to succeed. There are a lot of existing programs that deal with D&D and they exist because people buy their products - so a market exists. It would be nice if dndbeyond was a welcoming product that can work for everyone, not just the fiscally blessed. Creating a low cost "code" or providing it with a book purchase is a great motivator. People want a deal: offering a discount if you buy a book is a great deal.
I definitely agree, I just can't imagine what goes into that process, but If D&DB and WOTC can make it work I'd be stoked! there's little fun in having to repurchase EVERY BOOK YOU OWN at full price just to enjoy it digitally. the idea of paying full price might still be a good investment for someone who doesn't own the book he's buying, though, so it keeps things fair. ^_^
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
A voucher code is a great idea, and definitely doable. I work in a secondary academy and our students get given exam revision guides, which normally retail for between £10-£20 each. However, they also have a code inside for a free digital copy, which the students are allowed to use. Unlike being a PDF version which they could then save and pass on, the code is a single-use access to register for a secured website area with the content, including extras they couldn't fit in the book.
A voucher code is a great idea, and definitely doable. I work in a secondary academy and our students get given exam revision guides, which normally retail for between £10-£20 each. However, they also have a code inside for a free digital copy, which the students are allowed to use. Unlike being a PDF version which they could then save and pass on, the code is a single-use access to register for a secured website area with the content, including extras they couldn't fit in the book.
Similarly, currently Marvel comics has free digital versions of all (I think) of their current individual issues. There's just a code under a sticker on one of the pages.
WOTC doesn't own or operate D&DBeyond. If codes were included in the books for for free materials here, what capitol would Curse have to operate and enhance this service?
In the case of textbooks, you purchase a publisher's book, the login to the same publisher's website for access. This is not D&D's publisher website.
WOTC doesn't own or operate D&DBeyond. If codes were included in the books for for free materials here, what capitol would Curse have to operate and enhance this service?
In the case of textbooks, you purchase a publisher's book, the login to the same publisher's website for access. This is not D&D's publisher website.
Precisely. If a discount were to happen, A) it would require revising the contract between Curse and WotC, even if it would be an amazing service, and B) there's virtually nothing that can be done about all the books published and sold up to this day.
if both parties coordinate and can make it work sooner, as opposed to later, it would be better down the line, but I don't think that D&DB nor WotC are quite there yet, and I wouldn't like a dispute over that to stop everything amazing that's going on here. And I wouldn't want what happened to Trapdoor to happen to Curse too. I wouldn't forgive myself if it's over my suggestion anyways....
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
I'm curious about something. I have no interest in Fantasy Grounds and very little interest in Roll 20, so I never participated in the conversations about them when they announced their digital products. What I'm curious about is if the same arguments about "rebuying" and expecting discounts came up in their forums and discussions?
I think it's the most ridiculous expectation/demand and the entire concept of considering it to be "rebuying" is just stupid. To me, it's absurdly obvious that you're buying a different form of the product and that this has no bearing on it being required to buy or of expecting a discount for it. That argument is the equivalent of saying that because you bought GRRM's Sword of Ice & Fire as a physical book, you should get a discount on the audio version. Or you that somehow because there's an audio version, you're now forced to "rebuy" the book.
So I'm genuine curious to know if these same arguments came up for FG or R20. At least then I'd know that silly people are everywhere, and not just here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
I'm curious about something. I have no interest in Fantasy Grounds and very little interest in Roll 20, so I never participated in the conversations about them when they announced their digital products. What I'm curious about is if the same arguments about "rebuying" and expecting discounts came up in their forums and discussions?
I think it's the most ridiculous expectation/demand and the entire concept of considering it to be "rebuying" is just stupid. To me, it's absurdly obvious that you're buying a different form of the product and that this has no bearing on it being required to buy or of expecting a discount for it. That argument is the equivalent of saying that because you bought GRRM's Sword of Ice & Fire as a physical book, you should get a discount on the audio version. Or you that somehow because there's an audio version, you're now forced to "rebuy" the book.
So I'm genuine curious to know if these same arguments came up for FG or R20. At least then I'd know that silly people are everywhere, and not just here.
I took a look at FG and roll20's forums and via a quick search I couldn't find anyone complaining that they should be entitled to a discounted price because they already bought the book. Perhaps it's because mods delete such threads, or perhaps I just wasn't searching the right terms, or perhaps that is something unique to this community since Curse's license is position as the official WotC digital toolset for 5e rather than just another service who has a D&D license.
I do know there was a lot of complaints when Paizo announced their policy for Pathfinder licensees, where purchasing Pathfinder content on a 3rd party netted you a PDF included in the price, or a discount if you already owned the PDF. Lots of people complained that they didn't care about the PDF and therefore shouldn't have to be "forced" to buy it in order to get the content on the licensee's service. If WotC and DDB ever announced some other similar incentive program where owning X gives a discount to Y, or otherwise you buy both X and Y in bundle form, expect similar complaints even though that is pretty much exactly what everyone whining here about the current status quo is asking for...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Best thing to do is ignore them and just have prices commensurate to the amount of effort needed to put in the content for the service.
What I'm curious about is if the same arguments about "rebuying" and expecting discounts came up in their forums and discussions?
I've never been to the official forums of Fantasy Grounds or Roll20, but on the forums that I have been to (such as EnWorld) I have seen poster complain against the price of the digital versions of products available - both because of the ill-conceived idea that the added functionality and usability of the digital format in question wasn't worth at least as much money as the physical production product costs (i.e. "It's digital, so it shouldn't cost as much as the real book does"), and because it was "gouging" to be asking people that had already paid that price for the hard-copy of the product to pay full price for another copy (which I never found any sense to, given that buying another copy in hard-copy isn't inherently granted a lower price because you already own one, so why would some other kind of copy?)
What I'm curious about is if the same arguments about "rebuying" and expecting discounts came up in their forums and discussions?
I've never been to the official forums of Fantasy Grounds or Roll20, but on the forums that I have been to (such as EnWorld) I have seen poster complain against the price of the digital versions of products available - both because of the ill-conceived idea that the added functionality and usability of the digital format in question wasn't worth at least as much money as the physical production product costs (i.e. "It's digital, so it shouldn't cost as much as the real book does"), and because it was "gouging" to be asking people that had already paid that price for the hard-copy of the product to pay full price for another copy (which I never found any sense to, given that buying another copy in hard-copy isn't inherently granted a lower price because you already own one, so why would some other kind of copy?)
I can understand wanting a digital version to be cheaper. After all, the cost of production and distribution is *much* lower, plus the content itself has already been created so it's really about the data input and the format of presentation and the functionality of the tools connected to that information, rather than the content. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a physical PHB than I do for a digital version. Reasonable pricing will absolutely factor into my decision on whether or not to purchase. Part of the reason that I refuse to buy Roll 20 content is because they're charging unreasonable prices.
What I don't get is the notion of requiring a discount from a different company for providing a different service based on a product you've purchased from another company, or of this notion that you're "rebuying" something. That, to me, is ridiculous. But reasonable pricing is another argument altogether AFAIC.
I can understand wanting a digital version to be cheaper. After all, the cost of production and distribution is *much* lower, plus the content itself has already been created so it's really about the data input and the format of presentation and the functionality of the tools connected to that information, rather than the content. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a physical PHB than I do for a digital version. Reasonable pricing will absolutely factor into my decision on whether or not to purchase. Part of the reason that I refuse to buy Roll 20 content is because they're charging unreasonable prices.
Here's the thing though; convenience comes at a premium. That's just how things work - a gallon of milk at an (aptly named) convenience store has a higher price than the same gallon of milk would have at a grocery store, not because it's some different special kind of milk that is intrinsically more valuable, but because of the convenience of being able to pick it up while stopping for fuel, or at hours that a grocery might not actually be open, or even just not having to drive as far.
And yet, when it comes to digital gaming materials, so many people want to ignore everything in the "pro" column of the thing being digital and focus just on "con" column items like the smell or not needing a charger.
I can understand wanting a digital version to be cheaper. After all, the cost of production and distribution is *much* lower, plus the content itself has already been created so it's really about the data input and the format of presentation and the functionality of the tools connected to that information, rather than the content. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a physical PHB than I do for a digital version. Reasonable pricing will absolutely factor into my decision on whether or not to purchase. Part of the reason that I refuse to buy Roll 20 content is because they're charging unreasonable prices.
Here's the thing though; convenience comes at a premium. That's just how things work - a gallon of milk at an (aptly named) convenience store has a higher price than the same gallon of milk would have at a grocery store, not because it's some different special kind of milk that is intrinsically more valuable, but because of the convenience of being able to pick it up while stopping for fuel, or at hours that a grocery might not actually be open, or even just not having to drive as far.
And yet, when it comes to digital gaming materials, so many people want to ignore everything in the "pro" column of the thing being digital and focus just on "con" column items like the smell or not needing a charger.
I have to agree with Aaron. No one expects to get the Kindle version of Game of Thrones when they buy the physical book. There is a cost to produce and maintain this type of product. I don't know the arrangement Curse has with WotC but most likely they are paying WotC not the other way around. For this whole thing to work it needs to be profitable for both Curse and WotC/Hasbro. It may be that they can afford to offer a small discount to people who buy a physical copy in the future but I would not count on it. This is a separate product from a separate company.
I can understand wanting a digital version to be cheaper. After all, the cost of production and distribution is *much* lower, plus the content itself has already been created so it's really about the data input and the format of presentation and the functionality of the tools connected to that information, rather than the content. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a physical PHB than I do for a digital version. Reasonable pricing will absolutely factor into my decision on whether or not to purchase. Part of the reason that I refuse to buy Roll 20 content is because they're charging unreasonable prices.
Here's the thing though; convenience comes at a premium. That's just how things work - a gallon of milk at an (aptly named) convenience store has a higher price than the same gallon of milk would have at a grocery store, not because it's some different special kind of milk that is intrinsically more valuable, but because of the convenience of being able to pick it up while stopping for fuel, or at hours that a grocery might not actually be open, or even just not having to drive as far.
And yet, when it comes to digital gaming materials, so many people want to ignore everything in the "pro" column of the thing being digital and focus just on "con" column items like the smell or not needing a charger.
I have to agree with Aaron. No one expects to get the Kindle version of Game of Thrones when they buy the physical book. There is a cost to produce and maintain this type of product. I don't know the arrangement Curse has with WotC but most likely they are paying WotC not the other way around. For this whole thing to work it needs to be profitable for both Curse and WotC/Hasbro. It may be that they can afford to offer a small discount to people who buy a physical copy in the future but I would not coun on it. This is a separate product from a separate company.
Exactly this, I completely agree with Aaron and Kryzsko.
Yes, although I can understand frustration from people who MIGHT have bought any of this content on Roll20, and/or Fantasy Grounds. It would be extremely frustrating in that case (and really only in that case), since it would be like getting an ebook and finding out that it didn't work on your phone when you bought it for your tablet, and then hearing that you can totally buy a different version so that you could read it on both.
First World Problems, sure, but ebooks are ~$10, while these core books for a dedicated GM are around $150+. There is a difference there.
That said, the example does bear out. Buying books should not guarantee you digital content. A pdf, maybe, but what DNDBEYOND does is more than a pdf, and given the usefulness that I've gotten out of it even just in its beta phase, I am sure that I will be subscribing in some fashion.
I like where it is going so far. It will be great when the rest of the Compendium is filled out with the rest of the class details. I like the hover spell descriptions. that makes it really fast and a great touch to not have to open another screen.
i would love to be able to add all the optional rules i wish to include and sub classes etc into a PDF or what ever so i have it all in one place or a virtuel pdf like thing here on D&D beyond
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
#OpenDnD #CanceltheSub #DnDBegone.#NeverForgive #NeverForget
Keep up the good work people.
Overall, I agree. If you can provide proof that you purchased a hard copy (book) then a discount to DNDBeyond makes sense. The challenge for the WofC / Curse or DNDBeyond is users scraping the content and creating their owe PDFs once they have access. Essentially, with DNDBeyound you're getting 3+ books worth of content and growing, so at full price that's a $150 dollar value. I wouldn't be surprised to see a DNDBeyond switch to a subscription based model, with ongoing content additions and updates.
I'd also like to see digital copies of all of the latest campaigns.
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
#OpenDnD #CanceltheSub #DnDBegone.#NeverForgive #NeverForget
A voucher code is a great idea, and definitely doable. I work in a secondary academy and our students get given exam revision guides, which normally retail for between £10-£20 each. However, they also have a code inside for a free digital copy, which the students are allowed to use. Unlike being a PDF version which they could then save and pass on, the code is a single-use access to register for a secured website area with the content, including extras they couldn't fit in the book.
Shadow Council Sourcerist
WOTC doesn't own or operate D&DBeyond. If codes were included in the books for for free materials here, what capitol would Curse have to operate and enhance this service?
In the case of textbooks, you purchase a publisher's book, the login to the same publisher's website for access. This is not D&D's publisher website.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
I'm not - nor was I ever - your "obstacle" until you've deemed me as such, nor am I your wallet, my hard earnt money is not yours by deault.
Je suis Consumer - We are the foundation, the floor beneath your rug. our support is the fate of every retail product, business, and franchise. for success you need support.
I will always miss what you were, but I will never miss what you've become.
#OpenDnD #CanceltheSub #DnDBegone.#NeverForgive #NeverForget
I'm curious about something. I have no interest in Fantasy Grounds and very little interest in Roll 20, so I never participated in the conversations about them when they announced their digital products. What I'm curious about is if the same arguments about "rebuying" and expecting discounts came up in their forums and discussions?
I think it's the most ridiculous expectation/demand and the entire concept of considering it to be "rebuying" is just stupid. To me, it's absurdly obvious that you're buying a different form of the product and that this has no bearing on it being required to buy or of expecting a discount for it. That argument is the equivalent of saying that because you bought GRRM's Sword of Ice & Fire as a physical book, you should get a discount on the audio version. Or you that somehow because there's an audio version, you're now forced to "rebuy" the book.
So I'm genuine curious to know if these same arguments came up for FG or R20. At least then I'd know that silly people are everywhere, and not just here.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I took a look at FG and roll20's forums and via a quick search I couldn't find anyone complaining that they should be entitled to a discounted price because they already bought the book. Perhaps it's because mods delete such threads, or perhaps I just wasn't searching the right terms, or perhaps that is something unique to this community since Curse's license is position as the official WotC digital toolset for 5e rather than just another service who has a D&D license.
I do know there was a lot of complaints when Paizo announced their policy for Pathfinder licensees, where purchasing Pathfinder content on a 3rd party netted you a PDF included in the price, or a discount if you already owned the PDF. Lots of people complained that they didn't care about the PDF and therefore shouldn't have to be "forced" to buy it in order to get the content on the licensee's service. If WotC and DDB ever announced some other similar incentive program where owning X gives a discount to Y, or otherwise you buy both X and Y in bundle form, expect similar complaints even though that is pretty much exactly what everyone whining here about the current status quo is asking for...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Best thing to do is ignore them and just have prices commensurate to the amount of effort needed to put in the content for the service.
I've never been to the official forums of Fantasy Grounds or Roll20, but on the forums that I have been to (such as EnWorld) I have seen poster complain against the price of the digital versions of products available - both because of the ill-conceived idea that the added functionality and usability of the digital format in question wasn't worth at least as much money as the physical production product costs (i.e. "It's digital, so it shouldn't cost as much as the real book does"), and because it was "gouging" to be asking people that had already paid that price for the hard-copy of the product to pay full price for another copy (which I never found any sense to, given that buying another copy in hard-copy isn't inherently granted a lower price because you already own one, so why would some other kind of copy?)
I can understand wanting a digital version to be cheaper. After all, the cost of production and distribution is *much* lower, plus the content itself has already been created so it's really about the data input and the format of presentation and the functionality of the tools connected to that information, rather than the content. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a physical PHB than I do for a digital version. Reasonable pricing will absolutely factor into my decision on whether or not to purchase. Part of the reason that I refuse to buy Roll 20 content is because they're charging unreasonable prices.
What I don't get is the notion of requiring a discount from a different company for providing a different service based on a product you've purchased from another company, or of this notion that you're "rebuying" something. That, to me, is ridiculous. But reasonable pricing is another argument altogether AFAIC.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Well said Aaron.
Yes, although I can understand frustration from people who MIGHT have bought any of this content on Roll20, and/or Fantasy Grounds. It would be extremely frustrating in that case (and really only in that case), since it would be like getting an ebook and finding out that it didn't work on your phone when you bought it for your tablet, and then hearing that you can totally buy a different version so that you could read it on both.
First World Problems, sure, but ebooks are ~$10, while these core books for a dedicated GM are around $150+. There is a difference there.
That said, the example does bear out. Buying books should not guarantee you digital content. A pdf, maybe, but what DNDBEYOND does is more than a pdf, and given the usefulness that I've gotten out of it even just in its beta phase, I am sure that I will be subscribing in some fashion.
I like where it is going so far. It will be great when the rest of the Compendium is filled out with the rest of the class details. I like the hover spell descriptions. that makes it really fast and a great touch to not have to open another screen.
i would love to be able to add all the optional rules i wish to include and sub classes etc into a PDF or what ever so i have it all in one place or a virtuel pdf like thing here on D&D beyond