Remember the current Yeenoghu lore isn't so much Yeenoghu has subjugated the Gnoll race. Rather in 5e write ups Gnolls are a sort of byproduct of Abyssal toxicity left on carnage in Yeenoghu's wake, regular hyenas scavenge said carnage and are consumed by the abyssal residue and a gnoll bursts force. And they are sort of in his image. But there's plenty of prior edition lore that's food for thought for DMs who want to deviate from that canon (and as pointed out OotA has some "exceptional gnolls" thought RotFM has a "only thing worse than a gnoll is an undead gnoll" moment, so sorta a wash there).
Really, it sounds more like a creation myth than a process that would produce gnolls in any significant numbers.
Gnoll Fangs of Yeenoghu have the ability to transform hyenas into other gnolls through a dark ritual. I think the Yeenoghu rampage thing is pretty much only how the original knolls were created.
Still begs the question where your average Eurocentric pseudo medieval game world is getting all these hyenas from.
The easiest way to open gnolls up as a PC option is to point out that Volo's Guide is written as an in-universe source and as usual, Volo got a little lazy with his research and missed some important details about gnolls, namely that they were a race that was corrupted by Yeenoguh rather than created by the demon prince and there are still some uncorrupted tribes of gnolls around, mostly avoiding contact with other races due to the tendency of everyone else to kill gnolls on sight.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The easiest way to open gnolls up as a PC option is to point out that Volo's Guide is written as an in-universe source and as usual, Volo got a little lazy with his research and missed some important details about gnolls, namely that they were a race that was corrupted by Yeenoguh rather than created by the demon prince and there are still some uncorrupted tribes of gnolls around, mostly avoiding contact with other races due to the tendency of everyone else to kill gnolls on sight.
Totally. I'm playing in a campaign right now where my party is tracking a pack of gnolls, whose idol and temple to Yeenoghu was destriyed by something (we haven't uncovered it yet) that became their new leader. The gnolls have been acting different, and actually attacked a village without killing people, or eating. I think this goes to prove that you don't have to throw forgotten realms out the window, or necessarily create your own race. All it takes is a creative DM. A villain can be nuanced and cool, and still have simple motives. Thanos, for example. He wants to get the stones, to kill half the universe. Pretty simple motive. But, what makes him interesting is how he achieves those goals, as with all villains.
Honestly, just make a homebrew race, and read Volo's to clear up any further confusion.
Volo as an unreliable narrator makes a lot of sense, Volo's Guide to the North has a lot of ambiguity built into it. As for gnoll origins as xenomorphs, multiple methods can coexist, Crown of Souls can permanently turn people into goblins etc. I'm running a game with an orphaned gnoll PC, who has ambitions to establish a free clan coexisting with a dwarfhold, and just pretends to know gnolls reproduce naturally and takes offense at the suggestion of the hyena thing, will heavily imply later he's a product of the Corruption of the Soul Consumed ritual, which should be all kinds of fun.
I wouldn't say Gnolls are necessarily too demonic, but if you think about it, the core rule books are basically for the forgotten realms. In forgotten realms, gnolls are the hunger crazed cannibalistic demon spawn of Yeenoghu. They don't have to be that way in every campaign, but for WotC to go back on that lore and just say "Yeah, gnolls in forgotten realms are chill now", would be kind of weird. On the other hand, Tieflings are half devil, a distinction which actually does matter (although this point has already been brought up)
D&D is all about the exceptional, not about the typical.
Do what you will to make something exceptional, such as Gnolls joining a party (and not played by the DM). The sources describe the typical. Exceptions not covered in the sources make things interesting.
Of course, making everything an exception to the sources makes the exceptional into something typical. Exceptional is rare.
(I'm assuming it was already addressed that Tieflings are not remotely half-demon. I can't imagine 7 pages without someone pointing that out already.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
D&D is all about the exceptional, not about the typical.
Do what you will to make something exceptional, such as Gnolls joining a party (and not played by the DM). The sources describe the typical. Exceptions not covered in the sources make things interesting.
Of course, making everything an exception to the sources makes the exceptional into something typical. Exceptional is rare.
Exactly. If you want to make every monster in your campaign different, sort of like I do, that's fine. Just know that it's not really forgotten realms DnD at that point. But that''s fine, who care? As long as you and your players enjoy it. You don't have to wait for them to release a gnoll race. I just think they are too well known in 5e as something that shouldn't be playable
Of course, all that being said, the guy who started this thread hasn't responded since the first page, so we're probably just monologing with ourselves at this point
One thing to note on the whole gnoll vs Tiefling comparison is that, going by the lore we have for them, Tieflings are the descendants of humanoids who made a pact a long time ago that resulted in the transformation, while gnolls are hyenas that were given a crude uplift by a Demon Prince to spread his particular form of destruction. One started from a sapient and free-willed base, the other started as ordinary animals. I’d call that a fair basis for why one is a player race with a full range of agency, while the other is Always Chaotic Evil. Plus, in Monsters of the Multiverse they shifted gnoll creature types from Humanoid to Monstrosity, which I think helps clarify that gnolls are starting from a fundamentally different background than beings like orcs or goblinoids.
This is all as written in MToF, of course. I don't remember them being so "consummately evil" so much as anti-social/barbaric/marauders in prior editions, maybe with actual family dynamics and a biology conducive to it.
This is probably my biggest problem with it. They actually did some pretty extensive writeups in earlier editions (including a really nice article in 4e) that heavily expanded upon their ecology and social dynamics. Then in 5e they just threw it all in the trash in favor of "okay but they're the most evilest evil ever!!!"
Gotcha, so yeah when the publisher itself is that inconsistent, and radically inconsistent, with their canon/lore, DMs in my book have license to do whatever they want for their worlds. I appreciate that perspective. I think a lot of folks import other edition lore and own head canon more often. than some lore/canon adherents make out. And really, it is an odd niche on the evil essential train. I mean looking at their representation in RotFM and OotA, I could see someone sticking with the 5e lore, or doing something different. I like these discussions when wiggle room is created rather than absolutes, just because I like hearing about varieties of games not everyone playing the same game.
Of course, the last time a player of mine encountered a gnoll was like 20 something years ago.
DMs always have that license. The point has been clear from the very dawning, the rules are a guide. Do what you will. The publisher will never have the resources to include every idea the collective imagination of the crowd, nor if they had, is it likely they could include every desired variant and still present a cohesive, manageable ruleset for the folks who just want a working product off the shelf.
Anyone else have a massive problem with this? Not for any list of reasons, but the whole, "gnolls are just born bad, because they are too demonic." Where as Tieflings are also like, half demonic.
If we follow the logic of how Gnolls are, gnolls are Atleast 40 percent of demonic heritage, they don't even speak abyssal. They don't have any particular group of powers beyond that of other races. They get Rampage, but guess what? Orcs can pick up a rampage like ability as well. Tieflings literally have demonic bloodline powers.
I do not know what it is, but it smacks of some kind of hatred for monsterous race players. Like kobolds got hit hard, a number of monsterous creatures that were somewhat uncommon but still played got the short end of the stick. Where I Do greatly enjoy the whole, narrowing and focusing of the lens, the excuses for why we can't have some creatures that were playable in the past, are flimsy at best.
Thoughts?
I feel that although Tieflings are half demonic gnolls are completely raving mad and don’t have a moral compass. Meaning that in a way it’s a nightmare for DMs
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I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
Of course, all that being said, the guy who started this thread hasn't responded since the first page, so we're probably just monologing with ourselves at this point
Of course, all that being said, the guy who started this thread hasn't responded since the first page, so we're probably just monologing with ourselves at this point
True but still.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
One thing to note on the whole gnoll vs Tiefling comparison is that, going by the lore we have for them, Tieflings are the descendants of humanoids who made a pact a long time ago that resulted in the transformation, while gnolls are hyenas that were given a crude uplift by a Demon Prince to spread his particular form of destruction. One started from a sapient and free-willed base, the other started as ordinary animals. I’d call that a fair basis for why one is a player race with a full range of agency, while the other is Always Chaotic Evil. Plus, in Monsters of the Multiverse they shifted gnoll creature types from Humanoid to Monstrosity, which I think helps clarify that gnolls are starting from a fundamentally different background than beings like orcs or goblinoids.
That’s very true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
One thing to note on the whole gnoll vs Tiefling comparison is that, going by the lore we have for them, Tieflings are the descendants of humanoids who made a pact a long time ago that resulted in the transformation, while gnolls are hyenas that were given a crude uplift by a Demon Prince to spread his particular form of destruction. One started from a sapient and free-willed base, the other started as ordinary animals. I’d call that a fair basis for why one is a player race with a full range of agency, while the other is Always Chaotic Evil. Plus, in Monsters of the Multiverse they shifted gnoll creature types from Humanoid to Monstrosity, which I think helps clarify that gnolls are starting from a fundamentally different background than beings like orcs or goblinoids.
Emphasis mine. Obviously not your fault, but in those terms it feels pretty gross.
One thing to note on the whole gnoll vs Tiefling comparison is that, going by the lore we have for them, Tieflings are the descendants of humanoids who made a pact a long time ago that resulted in the transformation, while gnolls are hyenas that were given a crude uplift by a Demon Prince to spread his particular form of destruction. One started from a sapient and free-willed base, the other started as ordinary animals. I’d call that a fair basis for why one is a player race with a full range of agency, while the other is Always Chaotic Evil. Plus, in Monsters of the Multiverse they shifted gnoll creature types from Humanoid to Monstrosity, which I think helps clarify that gnolls are starting from a fundamentally different background than beings like orcs or goblinoids.
Emphasis mine. Obviously not your fault, but in those terms it feels pretty gross.
I mean, that's kinda the point. This is a Demon Prince creating lackeys to spread his influence/brand of corruption; he's not looking for sapient beings with self-awareness and the capacity for morality, he's looking for engines of destruction with just enough intelligence to be more dangerous than simple animals. Obviously it's not a good a thing, but again Demon Prince, good is pretty well out the window from the outset.
Behold the European cave hyena. It gets them from the same place it gets the elephants, dire wolves, and dinosaurs.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The easiest way to open gnolls up as a PC option is to point out that Volo's Guide is written as an in-universe source and as usual, Volo got a little lazy with his research and missed some important details about gnolls, namely that they were a race that was corrupted by Yeenoguh rather than created by the demon prince and there are still some uncorrupted tribes of gnolls around, mostly avoiding contact with other races due to the tendency of everyone else to kill gnolls on sight.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Totally. I'm playing in a campaign right now where my party is tracking a pack of gnolls, whose idol and temple to Yeenoghu was destriyed by something (we haven't uncovered it yet) that became their new leader. The gnolls have been acting different, and actually attacked a village without killing people, or eating. I think this goes to prove that you don't have to throw forgotten realms out the window, or necessarily create your own race. All it takes is a creative DM. A villain can be nuanced and cool, and still have simple motives. Thanos, for example. He wants to get the stones, to kill half the universe. Pretty simple motive. But, what makes him interesting is how he achieves those goals, as with all villains.
Honestly, just make a homebrew race, and read Volo's to clear up any further confusion.
Updog
Volo as an unreliable narrator makes a lot of sense, Volo's Guide to the North has a lot of ambiguity built into it. As for gnoll origins as xenomorphs, multiple methods can coexist, Crown of Souls can permanently turn people into goblins etc. I'm running a game with an orphaned gnoll PC, who has ambitions to establish a free clan coexisting with a dwarfhold, and just pretends to know gnolls reproduce naturally and takes offense at the suggestion of the hyena thing, will heavily imply later he's a product of the Corruption of the Soul Consumed ritual, which should be all kinds of fun.
I wouldn't say Gnolls are necessarily too demonic, but if you think about it, the core rule books are basically for the forgotten realms. In forgotten realms, gnolls are the hunger crazed cannibalistic demon spawn of Yeenoghu. They don't have to be that way in every campaign, but for WotC to go back on that lore and just say "Yeah, gnolls in forgotten realms are chill now", would be kind of weird. On the other hand, Tieflings are half devil, a distinction which actually does matter (although this point has already been brought up)
Updog
The thing is, they weren't like that in the Forgotten Realms until 5E came out.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
D&D is all about the exceptional, not about the typical.
Do what you will to make something exceptional, such as Gnolls joining a party (and not played by the DM). The sources describe the typical. Exceptions not covered in the sources make things interesting.
Of course, making everything an exception to the sources makes the exceptional into something typical. Exceptional is rare.
(I'm assuming it was already addressed that Tieflings are not remotely half-demon. I can't imagine 7 pages without someone pointing that out already.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
However, we are playing 5e, so that's the way it is right now (not necessarily saying that's how its always been or how it should be.
Exactly. If you want to make every monster in your campaign different, sort of like I do, that's fine. Just know that it's not really forgotten realms DnD at that point. But that''s fine, who care? As long as you and your players enjoy it. You don't have to wait for them to release a gnoll race. I just think they are too well known in 5e as something that shouldn't be playable
Updog
Of course, all that being said, the guy who started this thread hasn't responded since the first page, so we're probably just monologing with ourselves at this point
Updog
One thing to note on the whole gnoll vs Tiefling comparison is that, going by the lore we have for them, Tieflings are the descendants of humanoids who made a pact a long time ago that resulted in the transformation, while gnolls are hyenas that were given a crude uplift by a Demon Prince to spread his particular form of destruction. One started from a sapient and free-willed base, the other started as ordinary animals. I’d call that a fair basis for why one is a player race with a full range of agency, while the other is Always Chaotic Evil. Plus, in Monsters of the Multiverse they shifted gnoll creature types from Humanoid to Monstrosity, which I think helps clarify that gnolls are starting from a fundamentally different background than beings like orcs or goblinoids.
DMs always have that license. The point has been clear from the very dawning, the rules are a guide. Do what you will. The publisher will never have the resources to include every idea the collective imagination of the crowd, nor if they had, is it likely they could include every desired variant and still present a cohesive, manageable ruleset for the folks who just want a working product off the shelf.
I feel that although Tieflings are half demonic gnolls are completely raving mad and don’t have a moral compass. Meaning that in a way it’s a nightmare for DMs
I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
Join the bloodless band! Join us in the attack on darkness!
Come swim over to the Bloody Barnacle! The Bloody Barnacle against the world!
They/them
I enjoy eating humanoids dont freak out you get to live in a cell for 3 weeks before i kill you yay!!!!!
I’m the new god of kobolds (or goddess)
Silhouette of determination! Thanks drum!
True but still.
I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
Join the bloodless band! Join us in the attack on darkness!
Come swim over to the Bloody Barnacle! The Bloody Barnacle against the world!
They/them
I enjoy eating humanoids dont freak out you get to live in a cell for 3 weeks before i kill you yay!!!!!
I’m the new god of kobolds (or goddess)
Silhouette of determination! Thanks drum!
That’s very true.
I also have the ability to manifest my thoughts in ways that cut people. I call this power words. -Tasha
Join the bloodless band! Join us in the attack on darkness!
Come swim over to the Bloody Barnacle! The Bloody Barnacle against the world!
They/them
I enjoy eating humanoids dont freak out you get to live in a cell for 3 weeks before i kill you yay!!!!!
I’m the new god of kobolds (or goddess)
Silhouette of determination! Thanks drum!
Emphasis mine. Obviously not your fault, but in those terms it feels pretty gross.
I mean, that's kinda the point. This is a Demon Prince creating lackeys to spread his influence/brand of corruption; he's not looking for sapient beings with self-awareness and the capacity for morality, he's looking for engines of destruction with just enough intelligence to be more dangerous than simple animals. Obviously it's not a good a thing, but again Demon Prince, good is pretty well out the window from the outset.
Yep. Those demon princes are a bunch of stinkers.