I'm currently running Rise of Tiamatas part of a Campaign in which the PCs went already to the Avernus (The first layer of Baator) and got caught in between the deals of both wannabe rulers of this layer. The devil archdukes Bel and Zariel.
At the end of this confrontation, Bel ended up demoted and was forced to be Zariel's subordinate. Now, Bel has personal business to attend with the PCs since they helped Zariel to become the new archduke through her machinations.
In Rise of Tiamat some of the devils want Tiamat to stay in the Avernus while others wanna get her out of the place.
I would like to know if Tiamat liberation is supported by any of these two political powers from the Avernus and how would affect the other one. Which parties in Baator can get an advantage for helping the Cult of the Dragon?
Two Arch-devils come to mind off the top of my head. Mephistopheles is the most conventionally powerful arch-devil under Asmodeus the Lord of the nine. To explain their relationship I'm going to use a transformers analogy, I hope you're familiar. If you consider the Arch-devils to be like the Decepticons, then Asmodeus is Megatron and Mephistopheles is Starscream (except more capable). Mephistopheles has told Asmodeus that he intends to overthrow him to his face, and is the only one who has gotten away with that behavior. Most other arch-devils that plot against asmodeus end up FUBAR'D. Mephistopheles has been allowed to keep doing what he has been doing for a very long time.
What does this have to do with Tiamat?
Avernus, the first layer is very important because to get into the 9 hells without admittance by the arch-devils you need to go through Avernus. Avernus has always been completely impenetrable, whether it's Bel or Zariel there has never been a successful outside invasion of the 9 hells. And not for lack of trying, Avernus was one of the war fronts in the Blood war (a war between the Abyss and the 9 hells). Demons would try to invade en masse but never made it past Avernus. They were unsuccessful for a number of reasons, Bel and Zariel are two of the most martially proficient and strategic military leaders that the 9 hells have, invasions are met with heavy resistance by individuals that love bloodshed. The 9 hells have one of if not arguably the most powerful standing military across the known planes, they can commit a lot of resources to defense. And also Tiamat and her dragon pits reside in Avernus, making almost all incursions a suicide attack.
So to invade the 9 hells you have to go through legions of combat devils, Zariel and Bel, and if you get past them you have to deal with a host of some of the nastiest chromatic dragons in existence and Tiamat herself. Seems impossible right? Tiamat is actually in the 9 hells because she was banished there by Bahamut and some other good deities. She isn't being kept there because of Asmodeus but he has benefited immensely from her presence. She acts like a guard dog and a deterrent to rebellion against Asmodeus. Tiamat is a goddess so even though she is in the 9 hells amongst devils she is more powerful then almost all of them bar Asmodeus who is a greater god. Because of this relationship, Asmodeus is rather fond of Tiamat and she is mostly alllowed to do what she wants in her domain on Avernus.
So, you can see how her removal would weaken Avernus and Asmodeus to a certain extent, and certain parties like Mephistopheles might benefit from that.
Another Arch-Devil that would probably like to see Tiamat removed is Mammon the Arch-devil of greed. He clashes with Tiamat's portfolio, they both represent greed and has been able to lure some evil dragons into serving him. Tiamat doesn't like this and they don't like each other.
After coming back to this I realized you also asked how Bel and Zariel would respond to the possibility of Tiamat leaving. There isn't a clear answer for those two. You could justify both of them taking either stance. With Bel being demoted he might be looking for a way to weaken Zariel and Asmodeus by helping Tiamat leave. On the flipside; he has been responsible for protecting Avernus for eons, would he willingly weaken it? Additionally, when it is discovered that he was involved he will have to answer to Zariel and most importantly Asmodeus. This is a pitfiend that was just demoted, does he really want that kind of heat?
Zariel might want Avernus all to herself. She has been noted as a purist among devils and holds the original devils that started off as celestials in high esteem. To her everyone else in the 9 hells and beyond are unnecessary existences. Tiamat's presence might be a blemish on her domain.
I gave you reasons for both parties to side with the cult of the dragon but truthfully I think it is far more likely for interference to come from arch-devils other than these two such as Mephistopheles. Both of them are deathly afraid of Asmodeus, he has been playing musical chairs with the Arch-devil position in Avernus and I doubt either would want to do something to displease him. But whatever storyline you go with, it's your story, make it yours.
I gave you reasons for both parties to side with the cult of the dragon but truthfully I think it is far more likely for interference to come from arch-devils other than these two such as Mephistopheles. Both of them are deathly afraid of Asmodeus, he has been playing musical chairs with the Arch-devil position in Avernus and I doubt either would want to do something to displease him. But whatever storyline you go with, it's your story, make it yours.
Thanks a lot. This was truly enlightening. As far as now I didn't want the PCs to mess with the lowers layers of Baator, but it seem this a good way of showing how great the machinations of the Devils can be.
This is grade A stuff and seems to be in line with what I've read in the Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide. Hoping for more goodness coming out of Mordenkainien's Tome of Foes.
Out of curiosity, where are you pulling some of this info, specifically about Zariel herself? I'm doing a bit of Blood War content with my campaign and am hoping to keep it in line with what's already canon. If you can provide some additional sources for me to check out that would be splendid.
What little we know about Zariel is from 3e/3.5 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and Manual of Planes(2001). She was mentioned briefly here and there in 4e but most of what was said is that she had been demoted by Asmodeus. I'm hoping that she gets statted in Mordenkainen's because I find her to be the most interesting archdevil.
This is grade A stuff and seems to be in line with what I've read in the Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide. Hoping for more goodness coming out of Mordenkainien's Tome of Foes.
Out of curiosity, where are you pulling some of this info, specifically about Zariel herself? I'm doing a bit of Blood War content with my campaign and am hoping to keep it in line with what's already canon. If you can provide some additional sources for me to check out that would be splendid.
There's reference to her being a corrupted angel - so maybe a solar or similar but made fiendish? I know abishai (dragon-demons) which are Tiamats minions are in MToF which should be useful.
If my players get to the point where they're in Hell they're going to have to deal with Bel to get rid of Tiamat and Zariel (so he can have his layer back). Of course dealing with Devils isn't exactly easy or morally upright so we'll see how that goes!
Do PCs in Avernus treat all Devils as hostile or do you think they're used to the odd outsider wandering around?
This is grade A stuff and seems to be in line with what I've read in the Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide. Hoping for more goodness coming out of Mordenkainien's Tome of Foes.
Out of curiosity, where are you pulling some of this info, specifically about Zariel herself? I'm doing a bit of Blood War content with my campaign and am hoping to keep it in line with what's already canon. If you can provide some additional sources for me to check out that would be splendid.
There's reference to her being a corrupted angel - so maybe a solar or similar but made fiendish? I know abishai (dragon-demons) which are Tiamats minions are in MToF which should be useful.
If my players get to the point where they're in Hell they're going to have to deal with Bel to get rid of Tiamat and Zariel (so he can have his layer back). Of course dealing with Devils isn't exactly easy or morally upright so we'll see how that goes!
Do PCs in Avernus treat all Devils as hostile or do you think they're used to the odd outsider wandering around?
If your PCs were to actually go to Avernus you would have to play by the devil's rules. Fighting everything wouldn't be an option. With Avernus being the entrance to the Nine Hells there have to be rules for visitors. It would be smart to think of it like an airport in America. If you start doing crazy stuff the "TSA" IS going to be on your head.
If your PCs were to actually go to Avernus you would have to play by the devils rules. Fighting everything wouldn't be an option. With Avernus being the entrance to the Nine Hells there have to be rules for visitors. It would be smart to think of it like an airport in America. If you start doing crazy stuff the "TSA" IS going to be on your head.
I like it - 'you thought immigration and TSA was bad... watch this!'
I'm currently running Rise of Tiamatas part of a Campaign in which the PCs went already to the Avernus (The first layer of Baator) and got caught in between the deals of both wannabe rulers of this layer. The devil archdukes Bel and Zariel.
At the end of this confrontation, Bel ended up demoted and was forced to be Zariel's subordinate. Now, Bel has personal business to attend with the PCs since they helped Zariel to become the new archduke through her machinations.
In Rise of Tiamat some of the devils want Tiamat to stay in the Avernus while others wanna get her out of the place.
I would like to know if Tiamat liberation is supported by any of these two political powers from the Avernus and how would affect the other one. Which parties in Baator can get an advantage for helping the Cult of the Dragon?
This is actually addressed in the book. Bel has always had a good relationship with Tiamat and they have sort of an alliance. Zariel has always hated and feared Tiamat. As a result Zariel is having her forces aid Tiamat and the Cult of the Dragon, because if Tiamat succeeds she will be out of Hell and out of Zariel's way. Bel meanwhile wants to sabotage Tiamat's plan because if she leaves Hell he will lose a very powerful ally.
This is grade A stuff and seems to be in line with what I've read in the Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide. Hoping for more goodness coming out of Mordenkainien's Tome of Foes.
Out of curiosity, where are you pulling some of this info, specifically about Zariel herself? I'm doing a bit of Blood War content with my campaign and am hoping to keep it in line with what's already canon. If you can provide some additional sources for me to check out that would be splendid.
There's reference to her being a corrupted angel - so maybe a solar or similar but made fiendish? I know abishai (dragon-demons) which are Tiamats minions are in MToF which should be useful.
If my players get to the point where they're in Hell they're going to have to deal with Bel to get rid of Tiamat and Zariel (so he can have his layer back). Of course dealing with Devils isn't exactly easy or morally upright so we'll see how that goes!
Do PCs in Avernus treat all Devils as hostile or do you think they're used to the odd outsider wandering around?
If your PCs were to actually go to Avernus you would have to play by the devil's rules. Fighting everything wouldn't be an option. With Avernus being the entrance to the Nine Hells there have to be rules for visitors. It would be smart to think of it like an airport in America. If you start doing crazy stuff the "TSA" IS going to be on your head.
To be exact living Mortals are not allowed in Hell unless they have explicit permission. Said permission papers must be signed by the Archduke of the layer. So in order not to be murdered by devils you ether need to get permission or forge some papers that say you have permission. The Papers have to be high quality, as Bone Devils patrol pretty much everywhere and check all non devil groups to see if they have permission. So they have to be good enough to fool the Bone Devil inspectors.
Devils however are also ******** and don't tend to make stuff easy for Mortal visitors. Some devils mainly on the later levels take a shoot first and check if they have permission later policy. Devils tax collectors tend to extort mortals frequently. Angry Devils will frequently take out their rage on mortal visitors. And no devil will ever bother with telling their Lemures to not attack mortal visitors. (Many of whom will then use the Visitors defending themselves by destroying the Lemures as an excuse to sue them for damaging their property.)
The big exception for permission is the Ninth Layer no Mortals are allowed there, for the Simple fact that Asmodeus never gives permission for Mortals to go there and all Mortals are stated as being intruders to be killed on sight, if they produce permission forms then they are fake as Asmodeus has made it clear that no mortals are allowed period and any claims to the contrary are false. (Though he can give permission for any other layers and has, just never his own.)
Zariel was statted in a Mordenkainen's tome of Foes preview, if you guys don't care about spoilers, here she is.
Yeah MTOF was really good for fleshing out Avernus / Hell politics. I was interested to see that Abishai are LE whereas Tiamat herself is chaotic (but is ironically stuck in LE hell)
Zariel was statted in a Mordenkainen's tome of Foes preview, if you guys don't care about spoilers, here she is.
Yeah MTOF was really good for fleshing out Avernus / Hell politics. I was interested to see that Abishai are LE whereas Tiamat herself is chaotic (but is ironically stuck in LE hell)
Zariel was statted in a Mordenkainen's tome of Foes preview, if you guys don't care about spoilers, here she is.
Yeah MTOF was really good for fleshing out Avernus / Hell politics. I was interested to see that Abishai are LE whereas Tiamat herself is chaotic (but is ironically stuck in LE hell)
Are you sure. Tiamat has always been Lawful Evil.
All chromatics are chaotic evil. As far as I know, Tiamat has always been a goddess that embodied destruction, greed, and dominance through personal might. The Abishais are lawful because they are devils. Tiamat may be a chaotic evil goddess but if you look at the nine hells as the plane most associated with the lawful evil alignment and devils being the sentient manifestation of that paradigm, it makes sense.
With that being said, I personally wouldn't say that Abishai resemble more traditional devils in temperament or degree of lawfulness (there are degrees). They serve Tiamat, and I can't imagine her giving her troops orders but telling them to make sure that they accomplish her goals in a lawful manner. She doesn't give a damn about the laws of mortals or the gods unless she is forced to.
After the Sundering (look it up on the Forgotten Realms wiki if you're unfamiliar), the gods were strongly incentivized by Ao the Overgod to keep a low profile and interact with their followers in a manner befitting of their portfolios. Almost all of the other gods are keeping their heads down because they don't want to get screwed when he reorganizes the tablets of fate. Ao can weaken or even destroy the other gods if he sees fit so all of the immortals are minding their Ps and Qs. But Tiamat has been trapped in the nine hells for a long time and ran out of f**** to give long ago. So in spite of Ao and all the other gods she immediately tries to invade the material plane (this plays out in the Tyranny of Dragons storyline which inclues Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat), engaging in exactly the kind of behavior that Ao forbid. Pure insanity. Keep that in mind when you think of her and the abishai, they are devils, but devils created by Tiamat the goddess of not giving a single f***.
Zariel was statted in a Mordenkainen's tome of Foes preview, if you guys don't care about spoilers, here she is.
Yeah MTOF was really good for fleshing out Avernus / Hell politics. I was interested to see that Abishai are LE whereas Tiamat herself is chaotic (but is ironically stuck in LE hell)
Are you sure. Tiamat has always been Lawful Evil.
She's deffo CE in 'Rise of Tiamat' - I know she used to be LE. Unless the religion is LE but she herself is NE? (Drow are NE lolth is CE afaik)
I'm currently running Rise of Tiamat as part of a Campaign in which the PCs went already to the Avernus (The first layer of Baator) and got caught in between the deals of both wannabe rulers of this layer. The devil archdukes Bel and Zariel.
At the end of this confrontation, Bel ended up demoted and was forced to be Zariel's subordinate. Now, Bel has personal business to attend with the PCs since they helped Zariel to become the new archduke through her machinations.
In Rise of Tiamat some of the devils want Tiamat to stay in the Avernus while others wanna get her out of the place.
I would like to know if Tiamat liberation is supported by any of these two political powers from the Avernus and how would affect the other one.
Which parties in Baator can get an advantage for helping the Cult of the Dragon?
Two Arch-devils come to mind off the top of my head. Mephistopheles is the most conventionally powerful arch-devil under Asmodeus the Lord of the nine. To explain their relationship I'm going to use a transformers analogy, I hope you're familiar. If you consider the Arch-devils to be like the Decepticons, then Asmodeus is Megatron and Mephistopheles is Starscream (except more capable). Mephistopheles has told Asmodeus that he intends to overthrow him to his face, and is the only one who has gotten away with that behavior. Most other arch-devils that plot against asmodeus end up FUBAR'D. Mephistopheles has been allowed to keep doing what he has been doing for a very long time.
What does this have to do with Tiamat?
Avernus, the first layer is very important because to get into the 9 hells without admittance by the arch-devils you need to go through Avernus. Avernus has always been completely impenetrable, whether it's Bel or Zariel there has never been a successful outside invasion of the 9 hells. And not for lack of trying, Avernus was one of the war fronts in the Blood war (a war between the Abyss and the 9 hells). Demons would try to invade en masse but never made it past Avernus. They were unsuccessful for a number of reasons, Bel and Zariel are two of the most martially proficient and strategic military leaders that the 9 hells have, invasions are met with heavy resistance by individuals that love bloodshed. The 9 hells have one of if not arguably the most powerful standing military across the known planes, they can commit a lot of resources to defense. And also Tiamat and her dragon pits reside in Avernus, making almost all incursions a suicide attack.
So to invade the 9 hells you have to go through legions of combat devils, Zariel and Bel, and if you get past them you have to deal with a host of some of the nastiest chromatic dragons in existence and Tiamat herself. Seems impossible right? Tiamat is actually in the 9 hells because she was banished there by Bahamut and some other good deities. She isn't being kept there because of Asmodeus but he has benefited immensely from her presence. She acts like a guard dog and a deterrent to rebellion against Asmodeus. Tiamat is a goddess so even though she is in the 9 hells amongst devils she is more powerful then almost all of them bar Asmodeus who is a greater god. Because of this relationship, Asmodeus is rather fond of Tiamat and she is mostly alllowed to do what she wants in her domain on Avernus.
So, you can see how her removal would weaken Avernus and Asmodeus to a certain extent, and certain parties like Mephistopheles might benefit from that.
Another Arch-Devil that would probably like to see Tiamat removed is Mammon the Arch-devil of greed. He clashes with Tiamat's portfolio, they both represent greed and has been able to lure some evil dragons into serving him. Tiamat doesn't like this and they don't like each other.
After coming back to this I realized you also asked how Bel and Zariel would respond to the possibility of Tiamat leaving. There isn't a clear answer for those two. You could justify both of them taking either stance. With Bel being demoted he might be looking for a way to weaken Zariel and Asmodeus by helping Tiamat leave. On the flipside; he has been responsible for protecting Avernus for eons, would he willingly weaken it? Additionally, when it is discovered that he was involved he will have to answer to Zariel and most importantly Asmodeus. This is a pitfiend that was just demoted, does he really want that kind of heat?
Zariel might want Avernus all to herself. She has been noted as a purist among devils and holds the original devils that started off as celestials in high esteem. To her everyone else in the 9 hells and beyond are unnecessary existences. Tiamat's presence might be a blemish on her domain.
I gave you reasons for both parties to side with the cult of the dragon but truthfully I think it is far more likely for interference to come from arch-devils other than these two such as Mephistopheles. Both of them are deathly afraid of Asmodeus, he has been playing musical chairs with the Arch-devil position in Avernus and I doubt either would want to do something to displease him. But whatever storyline you go with, it's your story, make it yours.
This is a question and answer I didn't know I wanted. Thanks to both of you.
Now I have plenty of good ideas to go after this.
No problem, hope it turns out great.
This is grade A stuff and seems to be in line with what I've read in the Dungeon Master's Guide and Xanathar's Guide. Hoping for more goodness coming out of Mordenkainien's Tome of Foes.
Out of curiosity, where are you pulling some of this info, specifically about Zariel herself? I'm doing a bit of Blood War content with my campaign and am hoping to keep it in line with what's already canon. If you can provide some additional sources for me to check out that would be splendid.
What little we know about Zariel is from 3e/3.5 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and Manual of Planes(2001). She was mentioned briefly here and there in 4e but most of what was said is that she had been demoted by Asmodeus. I'm hoping that she gets statted in Mordenkainen's because I find her to be the most interesting archdevil.
Southampton Guild of Roleplayers
My YouTube (C&C Welcome!)
Southampton Guild of Roleplayers
My YouTube (C&C Welcome!)
The big exception for permission is the Ninth Layer no Mortals are allowed there, for the Simple fact that Asmodeus never gives permission for Mortals to go there and all Mortals are stated as being intruders to be killed on sight, if they produce permission forms then they are fake as Asmodeus has made it clear that no mortals are allowed period and any claims to the contrary are false. (Though he can give permission for any other layers and has, just never his own.)
i just wanna say HyperViper. You are awesome. I truely wish i could remember all the Lore an information like this.
Thank you, I'm just a guy with too much time on his hands, lol.
Zariel was statted in a Mordenkainen's tome of Foes preview, if you guys don't care about spoilers, here she is.
What about the Dark eight what would they think?
Yeah MTOF was really good for fleshing out Avernus / Hell politics. I was interested to see that Abishai are LE whereas Tiamat herself is chaotic (but is ironically stuck in LE hell)
Southampton Guild of Roleplayers
My YouTube (C&C Welcome!)
Are you sure. Tiamat has always been Lawful Evil.
All chromatics are chaotic evil. As far as I know, Tiamat has always been a goddess that embodied destruction, greed, and dominance through personal might. The Abishais are lawful because they are devils. Tiamat may be a chaotic evil goddess but if you look at the nine hells as the plane most associated with the lawful evil alignment and devils being the sentient manifestation of that paradigm, it makes sense.
With that being said, I personally wouldn't say that Abishai resemble more traditional devils in temperament or degree of lawfulness (there are degrees). They serve Tiamat, and I can't imagine her giving her troops orders but telling them to make sure that they accomplish her goals in a lawful manner. She doesn't give a damn about the laws of mortals or the gods unless she is forced to.
After the Sundering (look it up on the Forgotten Realms wiki if you're unfamiliar), the gods were strongly incentivized by Ao the Overgod to keep a low profile and interact with their followers in a manner befitting of their portfolios. Almost all of the other gods are keeping their heads down because they don't want to get screwed when he reorganizes the tablets of fate. Ao can weaken or even destroy the other gods if he sees fit so all of the immortals are minding their Ps and Qs. But Tiamat has been trapped in the nine hells for a long time and ran out of f**** to give long ago. So in spite of Ao and all the other gods she immediately tries to invade the material plane (this plays out in the Tyranny of Dragons storyline which inclues Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat), engaging in exactly the kind of behavior that Ao forbid. Pure insanity. Keep that in mind when you think of her and the abishai, they are devils, but devils created by Tiamat the goddess of not giving a single f***.
She's deffo CE in 'Rise of Tiamat' - I know she used to be LE. Unless the religion is LE but she herself is NE? (Drow are NE lolth is CE afaik)
Southampton Guild of Roleplayers
My YouTube (C&C Welcome!)