Because I live in the UK, it's a real pain to watch Critical Role live (for obvious reasons). However, it's school holidays at the moment, and I have NO RESPONSIBILITIES at all this week! With the help of my good friend sugar, I'm gonna try and stay up till 3 am this Thursday (technically Friday) and watch the damn thing live! Pray for meeee!!!!
Because I live in the UK, it's a real pain to watch Critical Role live (for obvious reasons). However, it's school holidays at the moment, and I have NO RESPONSIBILITIES at all this week! With the help of my good friend sugar, I'm gonna try and stay up till 3 am this Thursday (technically Friday) and watch the damn thing live! Pray for meeee!!!!
You'll need to stay up until around 0700 to watch the whole episode live.
Because I live in the UK, it's a real pain to watch Critical Role live (for obvious reasons). However, it's school holidays at the moment, and I have NO RESPONSIBILITIES at all this week! With the help of my good friend sugar, I'm gonna try and stay up till 3 am this Thursday (technically Friday) and watch the damn thing live! Pray for meeee!!!!
You'll need to stay up until around 0700 to watch the whole episode live.
So I'm not caught up yet (50 episodes into campaign 1, 12 into campaign 2) but it strikes me that all of them have characteristics that carry over from campaign 1 to 2:
Travis- male melee specialist of a race which is known for their brutality, with a penchant for weapons that have some weirdness to them
Marisha- female who technically wields a staff in combat but who in actuality more often attacks with other body parts, has as part of her backstory a larger organization which is overseeing her growth.
Liam- socially awkward male, with trouble effectively communicating, and whose bond with the group is predicated on his bond with a female within the group. Often raises questions as to the groups purpose and direction.
Sam- plays a small character who serves as comedic relief, espouses cowardice in the face of battle, and displays discomfort with the very essence if their being.
Laura- female with parental issues who brings something else onto the battlefield they control. That's all I've got, Laura has done an excellent job pivoting entirely.
Taliesin- male, plays a class which is not in the phb, dresses rather fancily, weilds weapons which are unique in how they operate and which are central to a backstory he is secretive about, at least initially.
Ashley- beyond the most obvious (not always there), plays a female with strong ties, especially in backstory, to a male party member. Not sure beyond that, at the point I'm at I've not learned overly much about her character.
What else carries over? Note this is all in fun, they're all doing a great job developing characters which are different from the last campaign with their own personalities and identities, and as much as possible it'd be nice to keep replies to this spoiler free, or at least flagged, as I'm still working my way through the respective campaigns
So I'm not caught up yet (50 episodes into campaign 1, 12 into campaign 2) but it strikes me that all of them have characteristics that carry over from campaign 1 to 2:
Travis- male melee specialist of a race which is known for their brutality, with a penchant for weapons that have some weirdness to them
Marisha- female who technically wields a staff in combat but who in actuality more often attacks with other body parts, has as part of her backstory a larger organization which is overseeing her growth.
Liam- socially awkward male, with trouble effectively communicating, and whose bond with the group is predicated on his bond with a female within the group. Often raises questions as to the groups purpose and direction.
Sam- plays a small character who serves as comedic relief, espouses cowardice in the face of battle, and displays discomfort with the very essence if their being.
Laura- female with parental issues who brings something else onto the battlefield they control. That's all I've got, Laura has done an excellent job pivoting entirely.
Taliesin- male, plays a class which is not in the phb, dresses rather fancily, weilds weapons which are unique in how they operate and which are central to a backstory he is secretive about, at least initially.
Ashley- beyond the most obvious (not always there), plays a female with strong ties, especially in backstory, to a male party member. Not sure beyond that, at the point I'm at I've not learned overly much about her character.
What else carries over? Note this is all in fun, they're all doing a great job developing characters which are different from the last campaign with their own personalities and identities, and as much as possible it'd be nice to keep replies to this spoiler free, or at least flagged, as I'm still working my way through the respective campaigns
Not necessarily incorrect, but to a larger degree, we all have elements that we hold on to from character to character. Each of them have expanded quite a bit, but there are always going to be elements to our characters that we all fall back on, often a piece of who we are. Travis is a big dude, who played football in college (got made fun of for acting by his coach), Sam is always looking for the joke, and Liam is hella socially awkward (which he'll be the first to proclaim). Laura is very open, so are both of her characters, often exposing them to a lot of potential pain. Marisha's characters both take a stand for what they believe in, and jump head first during confrontations, which seems consistent with what I've seen. Taliesin's characters have a strong sense of propriety, and are very particular about enforcing it. Ashley plays characters that are connected to their faith, and feel like they're stronger for it.
We all do the same thing. Whatever I'm playing, whether it's an RPG or a video game, I prefer to strike quickly, hard, and hopefully only need to do it once. Even in FPS games, I prefer to play as a sniper. My characters tend to act like they're being selfish, but when push comes to shove, they're willing to sacrifice it all for those that can't take care of themselves. Hell, I just had a character death on my last session because of that. He was put in a situation where he had a choice to be made, and the most obvious one was to back down, but he paid the ultimate price to save the city.
So, while those are good assessments, it's unfair to point that out. They play in front of tens of thousands of viewers, who are all a part of a tight community, so it's easy for people to find each things. At home, no one is paying attention. Even with my character's death, it was on a stream for my channel, but with about 4 people watching, there isn't going to be a lot of analysis of the similarities between my characters.
Also interesting to note how in many ways the new characters zig where Vox Machina zagged, so to speak. Both of Laura's characters have a certain interest in money, true, but for different reasons: Vex was insecure and miserly because of the twins' upbringing, convinced that being well-off would change how others saw her, while Jester is clearly accustomed to always having more than she needs and spending frivolously, and being out on her own in the wider world is a drastic shift in her reality.
It applies to the others, too. Beau is jaded where Keyleth was naïve, Molly is a street hustler and carnie while Percy came from wealthy nobility, Nott can't tell a convincing lie to save her life when Scanlan's wild yarns were often key to VM's success, etc.
Yup. This is probably the first perma-death in the series since they've started streaming. And once again, its Taliesin's character, just like the pre-stream one before Percy.
Yup. This is probably the first perma-death in the series since they've started streaming. And once again, its Taliesin's character, just like the pre-stream one before Percy.
Vax should've had a perma-death, but Matt had to make a call because it was pretty late in the game to introduce a new character in a live stream (it's a lot easier in a home game). It also kinda would've punished Liam, because he would've had to had a crash course in a new class. Not to mention that with them being that late in the game, and the audience having been that attached to the characters without that fear, it was a smart decision to not have to fight off audience anger and walk into the final fights.
I absolutely love the constant risk of perma-death, and when it happens it ups the stakes. I stream a game on Twitch (for an audience of like 6), and my first character died fairly early. After he did, the other players started taking it very seriously. I have a policy as a policy (and I encourage my players to do it) to have 2-3 backup characters in place, which allowed us to have a session 0.5, where I presented my characters to get input on them to help me decide. Consequently, I think that the other players have at least put some thought into it, which is a good idea when death is on the line.
That being said, while it was very heartwrenching to watch Mollymauk die, he was the character that I liked the least. I didn't hate him. I just didn't like him all that much. I couldn't tell you why. It's kind of like with Paul Walker. He seems like he was a great guy, but every time I saw him I wanted to punch him in the face. Even when I didn't know it was him at the time, like in Pleasantville, I just had that urge, and when I found out later it suddenly made sense to me, because there isn't anyone else that elicits that urge in me. So, while Mollymauk is gone, and I'll be sad about it for a while, I'm a little happy about it, and I'm excited to see what new character Taliesin brings to the table. I think the one class they haven't covered yet is Paladin, and I think it's exactly thing they need right now. Even when Laura comes back, they only have one healer, so a combat medic isn't a bad thing to have.
Fighter, Paladin and Sorcerer are the only classes left, I think, though I wouldn't be surprised if he rolls an already used class.
It'll be interesting, but I'm of a similar mind. If its anyone, at least it was Molly. Course, I felt the same about Percy until the Briarwood arc. It was very likely that Molly might have gotten his own story arc, though perhaps not as large, that would have elevated him also.
Fighter, Paladin and Sorcerer are the only classes left, I think, though I wouldn't be surprised if he rolls an already used class.
Percy was a fighter, (Gunslinger is an archetype) and Tiberius was a sorcerer. Paladin is the only class the main cast hasn't played on stream, though his character pre-stream for Vox Machina was Paladin.
As my own aside... It really seemed like, from my perspective, Taliesen wanted Mollymauk to be something that his skills and abilities wouldn't let him be. He wanted to be the face and do all of these wonderfully Charismatic thing, but his Charisma was purely average. He wanted to be able to stay back in combat and only approach when his swords would be advantageous, but his only ranged abilities were Charisma based. It felt like he was trying to play a College of Swords bard, but he happened to be playing a Blood Hunter with average Charisma. Just my opinion, anyways, but I felt bad watching him try to do things he was excited about, only to have them bork because the character he made wasn't built for it. I'm very curious what he'll pull out next, and I hope it'll let him play out the character however he imagines it!
Oh, I thought Tiberius was a wizard, my bad. I knew Percy was a Fighter subclass, but his subclass near-eclipsed everything about the Fighter, so I didn't count it.
You people keep saying Paladin is the only one left but not really true. Vax was Paladin, albeit as a multiclass.
Campaign 1
Grog: Barbarian (Path of the Beserker) / Fighter (Battle Master) Keyleth: Druid (Circle of the Moon) Percy: Fighter (Gunslinger) Pike: Cleric (War Domain) Scanlan: Bard (College of Lore) Tary: Artificer (Alchemist) Tiberius: Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline) Vax: Rogue (Assassin) / Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) / Druid (no subclass) Vex: Ranger (Beastmaster) / Rogue (Assassin)
Campaign 2
Fjord: Warlock (Hexblade) Beau: Monk (Way of the Cobalt Soul) Caleb: Wizard (School of Transmutation) Nott: Rogue (Arcane Trickster) Jester: Cleric (Trickery Domain) Mollymauk: Blood Hunter (Order of the Ghostslayer) Yasha: Barbarian (Path of the Zealot)
There is no class they have not played.
There are still plenty of subclasses they have not tried however and races they have not been.
Vax was a paladin, but only kinda. He didn't really play like a paladin, more focusing on the RP aspects, even though he took 6 levels of it. Don't get me wrong, I think that was a cool character choice, but I don't know how much that counts. It would be more arguable that Vex was more rogue than Vax was paladin because she really tried to start leaning into it, but she wasn't very successful at it either, using rogue as more of an augmentation of her ranger class. This isn't to say that you can't multiclass rogue/paladin and it not count. It's just my personal opinion that's not what was happening with Vax. At least for me, when you multiclass the point is to create a character concept that doesn't exist otherwise. If a paladin is a holy warrior, then the rogue paladin would be a divine spy, or maybe somthing like the Spanish Inquisition (especially after Xanathar's).
The reason why I don't create the same distinction with Percy's fighter is that it was much more in line with a ranged fighter. Just because the fighter is most commonly used as a tank doesn't mean that's the only option. Mechanically speaking, DMG pistols are not dissimilar to hand crossbows that use bigger dice, and the ones that Matt and Taliesin created are just guns with much more complicated rules designed to make it more interesting while trying to achieve balance. What we percieve as Percy shooting a bunch is just the fighter's multi-attack feature, and he frequently used action surge.
This isn't to say that I'm trying to completely dismiss what your trying to say. I'm just trying to provide context for why I presented it the way that I did. I didn't forget that Vax took levels in paladin. Just that it doesn't feel quite the same to me.
Fighter, Paladin and Sorcerer are the only classes left, I think, though I wouldn't be surprised if he rolls an already used class.
Percy was a fighter, (Gunslinger is an archetype) and Tiberius was a sorcerer. Paladin is the only class the main cast hasn't played on stream, though his character pre-stream for Vox Machina was Paladin.
As my own aside... It really seemed like, from my perspective, Taliesen wanted Mollymauk to be something that his skills and abilities wouldn't let him be. He wanted to be the face and do all of these wonderfully Charismatic thing, but his Charisma was purely average. He wanted to be able to stay back in combat and only approach when his swords would be advantageous, but his only ranged abilities were Charisma based. It felt like he was trying to play a College of Swords bard, but he happened to be playing a Blood Hunter with average Charisma. Just my opinion, anyways, but I felt bad watching him try to do things he was excited about, only to have them bork because the character he made wasn't built for it. I'm very curious what he'll pull out next, and I hope it'll let him play out the character however he imagines it!
I never thought about it that way, but maybe that's why I didn't like Mollymauk that much. There was something missing there, and my subconscious filled in the void that my conscious brain couldn't reconcile. Taliesin had a character in mind but, just like his accent, it just never stuck. Perhaps he was too close to the character, so it was hard for him to not slip in and out. A prime example is when Nott revealed the gun. Mollymauk wouldn't have cared one bit about it, but it very clearly bothered Taliesin, and because character and player were very close, he made a player choice, not a character choice, when he tried to take the gun away from Nott. After all, Nott was complying with the moral rules that Mollymauk established, which Nott has been trying to follow, being that his only other experiences with social morays is with goblin tribes.
Vax was a paladin, but only kinda. He didn't really play like a paladin, more focusing on the RP aspects, even though he took 6 levels of it. Don't get me wrong, I think that was a cool character choice, but I don't know how much that counts. It would be more arguable that Vex was more rogue than Vax was paladin because she really tried to start leaning into it, but she wasn't very successful at it either, using rogue as more of an augmentation of her ranger class. This isn't to say that you can't multiclass rogue/paladin and it not count. It's just my personal opinion that's not what was happening with Vax. At least for me, when you multiclass the point is to create a character concept that doesn't exist otherwise. If a paladin is a holy warrior, then the rogue paladin would be a divine spy, or maybe somthing like the Spanish Inquisition (especially after Xanathar's).
You have some extremely strict rules about what counts as using Paladin and considering what is considered "really" playing it. From an RP perspective he was the Champion of the Raven Queen and it became an important plot point for the whole story and for his character. He was a holy warrior in her name, he served her loyally. I think that counts as an RP perspective (just because he's multiclass with rogue should not mean he "must" become a "spy" because many people use multiclass as a means of telling how somebody is transitioning away from their main path (he was becoming less of an assassin and became more involved as a servant of the Raven Queen and did not become one as result of his rogue history)) and as for the mechanical aspects I would, personally, consider using divine smite and the channel divinity and even spells in most combats to be playing a paladin. I'm weird like that. But hey if somebody using divine smite and channel divinity (he liked to use Vow of Emnity for that advantage-sneak attack) and frequently using lay on hands is not enough for you to consider them "really" playing the paladin that's your prerogative - I'll just be very, very, glad I'm not playing one in a game you're a DM of because it seems that would suck. But now we know that for you:
A Paladin who roleplays as a holy warrior in loyal service to their god following their doctrines is not being a real paladin.
Using Paladin Channel Divinity where appropriate like Vow of Emnity on foes you most hate and seek to destroy for vengeance and for your God is not being a real (Oath of Vengeance) Paladin.
Using Lay of Hands frequently when necessary and sometimes even when it wasn't necessary just because you could isn't being a real paladin.
Using Divine Smite every chance you got where you knew it would count is not being a real paladin.
I can only wonder what actually is a real paladin to you if RPing one convincingly (as appropriate for the god being followed) and very frequently using paladin features is not "really" being a paladin.
The reason why I don't create the same distinction with Percy's fighter is that it was much more in line with a ranged fighter. Just because the fighter is most commonly used as a tank doesn't mean that's the only option. Mechanically speaking, DMG pistols are not dissimilar to hand crossbows that use bigger dice, and the ones that Matt and Taliesin created are just guns with much more complicated rules designed to make it more interesting while trying to achieve balance. What we percieve as Percy shooting a bunch is just the fighter's multi-attack feature, and he frequently used action surge.
This is just confusing the hell out of me. Percy's fighter thing isn't comparable to Vax's Paladin. Percy didn't multiclass. He was a Fighter that took the Gunslinger archetype. So the fact one is multiclass and the other isn't is distinction enough. Only one person said fighter was a class nobody took and only because they did not realise Percy was a fighter and this was corrected for them. People also seemed to forget Grog was multiclassed into Fighter as well (which would have been a better example since Travis used those fighter features a lot less than Vax used Paladin). My only confusion was people saying Paladin was the only class nobody took which, regardless of what you feel is or is not "really" playing Paladin, is not true. Especially if you don't rely on "on-stream" because prior to the stream Taliesin played a dragnborn paladin.
You're getting far more worked up about this than is necessary, friend. Yes, prestream Taliesin was a Paladin, but we didn't really get to see that. And yes, Liam multiclassed into a Paladin because his Champion of the Raven Queen plot arc demanded it, but he never stopped being a Rogue. Him being a paladin, whether you're speaking mechanically or roleplay, was a very distant second to his character's identity as a rogue. Ashley's Pike was more of a Paladin type of character than Liam's Vax, in my opinion. Even more so with Percy's gunslinger being a subclass of fighter, or Grog's multiclassing. Their other attributes eclipsed that one so totally that it might as well not even been there. There was little "fighter" in Percy's gunslinger.
I was mistaken about Tiberius however, I had always assumed he was a Wizard and not a Sorcerer. That said, his relatively short time with the series could leave the class open. Additionally, Mercer's Blood Hunter has subclasses that drastically change the class in ways I don't think any other class does, leaving other options available there.
It doesn't mean Taliesin must or should try to go for something nobody else really has, it's just that these are the options I would set forth if that was so. Nothing's stopping him from choosing a Monk or Barbarian, for instance, even the same subclass. I honestly wouldn't mind if he ran another Blood Hunter Order of the Ghostslayer either.
There's honestly nothing here worth debating about, I only mean to clarify my own position from earlier and I'm leaving it at that.
Vax was a paladin, but only kinda. He didn't really play like a paladin, more focusing on the RP aspects, even though he took 6 levels of it. Don't get me wrong, I think that was a cool character choice, but I don't know how much that counts. It would be more arguable that Vex was more rogue than Vax was paladin because she really tried to start leaning into it, but she wasn't very successful at it either, using rogue as more of an augmentation of her ranger class. This isn't to say that you can't multiclass rogue/paladin and it not count. It's just my personal opinion that's not what was happening with Vax. At least for me, when you multiclass the point is to create a character concept that doesn't exist otherwise. If a paladin is a holy warrior, then the rogue paladin would be a divine spy, or maybe somthing like the Spanish Inquisition (especially after Xanathar's).
You have some extremely strict rules about what counts as using Paladin and considering what is considered "really" playing it. From an RP perspective he was the Champion of the Raven Queen and it became an important plot point for the whole story and for his character. He was a holy warrior in her name, he served her loyally. I think that counts as an RP perspective (just because he's multiclass with rogue should not mean he "must" become a "spy" because many people use multiclass as a means of telling how somebody is transitioning away from their main path (he was becoming less of an assassin and became more involved as a servant of the Raven Queen and did not become one as result of his rogue history)) and as for the mechanical aspects I would, personally, consider using divine smite and the channel divinity and even spells in most combats to be playing a paladin. I'm weird like that. But hey if somebody using divine smite and channel divinity (he liked to use Vow of Emnity for that advantage-sneak attack) and frequently using lay on hands is not enough for you to consider them "really" playing the paladin that's your prerogative - I'll just be very, very, glad I'm not playing one in a game you're a DM of because it seems that would suck. But now we know that for you:
A Paladin who roleplays as a holy warrior in loyal service to their god following their doctrines is not being a real paladin.
Using Paladin Channel Divinity where appropriate like Vow of Emnity on foes you most hate and seek to destroy for vengeance and for your God is not being a real (Oath of Vengeance) Paladin.
Using Lay of Hands frequently when necessary and sometimes even when it wasn't necessary just because you could isn't being a real paladin.
Using Divine Smite every chance you got where you knew it would count is not being a real paladin.
I can only wonder what actually is a real paladin to you if RPing one convincingly (as appropriate for the god being followed) and very frequently using paladin features is not "really" being a paladin.
The reason why I don't create the same distinction with Percy's fighter is that it was much more in line with a ranged fighter. Just because the fighter is most commonly used as a tank doesn't mean that's the only option. Mechanically speaking, DMG pistols are not dissimilar to hand crossbows that use bigger dice, and the ones that Matt and Taliesin created are just guns with much more complicated rules designed to make it more interesting while trying to achieve balance. What we percieve as Percy shooting a bunch is just the fighter's multi-attack feature, and he frequently used action surge.
This is just confusing the hell out of me. Percy's fighter thing isn't comparable to Vax's Paladin. Percy didn't multiclass. He was a Fighter that took the Gunslinger archetype. So the fact one is multiclass and the other isn't is distinction enough. Only one person said fighter was a class nobody took and only because they did not realise Percy was a fighter and this was corrected for them. People also seemed to forget Grog was multiclassed into Fighter as well (which would have been a better example since Travis used those fighter features a lot less than Vax used Paladin). My only confusion was people saying Paladin was the only class nobody took which, regardless of what you feel is or is not "really" playing Paladin, is not true. Especially if you don't rely on "on-stream" because prior to the stream Taliesin played a dragnborn paladin.
To start: dude, chill. You're overthinking things, and getting far more worked up than you need to. I was just reflecting on how I specifically felt about the difference between Vax as a multi-class and other situations. As Conn_Eremon points out, it felt like he never stopped being a rogue, even though about a third of his levels were actually paladin, which is distinctly different than the way that I view multi-classing.
I guess the main difference is that Vax (and Vex) took on a second class, which is distinct from multi-classing. I view them as being different approaches to the same action, that's all. That's why I gave the example of a divine spy as multi-classing, becuase the way that I view it is that multi-classing is to create something new, whereas taking on a second class comes from an augmentation or RP reason. Both of which, might I add, are perfectly reasonable choices to make. As a DM, I would never restrict someone from making a legal character. As a player, I'm all about single class, but that's my play-style.
Speaking of which, you put a whole lot of words into my mouth that I didn't even allude to, saying more on the subject than I did. I don't appreciate your tone, your inferences, and your blanket statements. You don't know me, and you have a very narrow window into my views on things. Even if you went through all of my posts (which isn't likely), less than 100 of them isn't enough to get a picture of how I run or play things.
The funniest thing to me is that you're actually pretty seriously wrong. I don't have one view of the way a class should work. I don't even have one view of the way a subclass should work. I find a balance between mechanics and role-play (often going back and forth a few times to make adjustments), and put my largest priority on how that person would react in any given situation, whether it's an environmental, social, or combat encounter, and if I'm DM'ing I encourage my players to do the same (although it's ultimately up to them to balance their fun with the rest of the party). If my character is strictly a poster child for a class, then that's how I'll react, but I find that to be extremely boring. I like to subvert expectations. I stream a game with a few friends, and my ghostwise halfling is decidedly un-halfling-like, which is reflective of his history. I started with an aasimar bard, who I envisioned as a workhorse spellcaster, which is not quite a support or jack-of-all-trades bard. I enjoy making fun twists with my characters, but within the bounds of what would draw them to that class in the first place. I also like to establish my character based on the subclass I intend on taking while still being flexible in case the story shapes their views.
You're getting far more worked up about this than is necessary, friend.
Please do not mistake any of my posts as me being worked up. My post you're replying to was made with a smile and humour. It may not be humour you are used to, but in my culture here this is humorous and polite. In the two and a half decades of visiting forums online I have made an angry/worked up exactly twice, both a long time ago and both were because they were made by people known offline making personal attacks against people I know and care about. Words from some stranger online will never get me worked up or upset - you could completely insult my dead mother and I'd just laugh and think it adorable. I can't actually confirm you exist beyond some words on a screen - so how worked up could I be, especially given the topic is about some game with fictional characters? Ha, you're cute.
Having said that, you do immediately lose all credibility or respect for trying to dictate to me what is or is not necessary for me to be worked up over - only I have that authority, you don't. If I felt it necessary to be angry, then it is necessary, regardless of your opinion on the matter. My emotional level in my responses are mine. I mean, sure, I agree with you but that isn't the point.
Yes, prestream Taliesin was a Paladin, but we didn't really get to see that. And yes, Liam multiclassed into a Paladin because his Champion of the Raven Queen plot arc demanded it, but he never stopped being a Rogue. Him being a paladin, whether you're speaking mechanically or roleplay, was a very distant second to his character's identity as a rogue.
Vax becoming a Paladin was not because of the Raven Queen. Liam was thinking of becoming a Paladin for a quite a long time - beginning in the Briarwood Arc. It was why he was asking Pike about her relationship with Sarenrae and why he was wearing Sarenrae's symbol. By the time he decided to actually do it, bam, he came the Champion of the Raven Queen. What this meant was up to him - it did not come with any class requirements nor was it for him to begin multiclassing. Do remember that Purvan, the previous champion, was not a paladin and was actually a Ranger - Beast Master. The only thing that this all changed for Vax was instead of becoming Paladin of Sarenrae he became Paladin of the Raven Queen.
You seem to be taking it that multiclass means you suddenly forget and stop being/using the first class. Not how it works. Just because he remained a Rogue doesn't mean he wasn't also a Paladin. From an RP perspective he played it into his character. No not as a crusader type - Paladins do not have to be played that way - and it was an important part of his identity (in terms of service) and part of his story. That is what the cast care most about. From a mechanical side of things he played the Paladin features every chance he got, like anyone would, so not sure why you just ignore that. It will seem less than his "Rogue" but then he's 6 level Paladin while 14 Rogue so of course he'll remain favouring Rogue. This does not mean he was any less of a 6th level Paladin.
How you think he played it is beyond irrelevant when we're discussing "what would Taliesin take?" because it's about what Taliesin and the cast think and as far as they are concerned they recognised Vax's paladin multiclass.
At the end of the day Liam went to Matt and said "I'm multiclassing into paladin" and so he has taken Paladin class which means that class has, technically, been played (how well is irrevelant). People saying "nobody's been paladin" is therefore incorrect and my post which has somehow sparked this side discussion is to point out that yes somebody has taken Paladin. He took 6 levels which means he took more of that class than any current Mighty Nein character has taken their classes given they're only level 5.
Yeah. I mean it wasn't like he was using the main fighter features like Fighting Style... Oh, wait he did take Archery style and was factoring the +2 damage bonus to his ranged weapon attacks, ah well but clearly he wasn't using Second Wind whe.... Oh he did, everytime he was injured?.. Ah, but he never used Indomitable.. Aside from all those numerous times he did.. so ok scratch that... Action Surge... Well, yes he did use that a lot. But it's not like he was using the Ext... Oh no, yes, Extra Attacks used every single time. Ah, but the archetype completely different than any oth-- Oh, it's just a reworked Battle Master. Well, gee... And.. that's everything. Hmm, so, your statement is utterly and completely unfounded and baseless in every conveivable way... Interesting.
The stuff you people come up with is riveting, really. I have to wonder if we even watched the same show.
Rubahak, pretty much anything I would say in response to you would be found in my response to Conn_Eramon, since you're saying basically the same thing for the most part and even use similar phrases. You may as well just be one person.
I will say you're a hypocrite. You say Liam was not "really" playing a Paladin based on how he roleplayed, suggesting it did not fit what you expected (a holy spy being an example given) but now say people breaking expectations is a good and something you do yourself. Make up your mind. He played Paladin in his own way, a way the rest of the cast recognised. So he did play Paladin in RP terms. And he used the features every chance he got, so he played it mechanically too. So, not unreasonable for me to be confused by you saying his playing of paladin doesn't count.
And your particular opinion of how multiclassing should be is irrelevant and not shared by D&D community, the cast or the rules. Multiclass literally means "more than one class", taking a second class is the exact same thing as multiclassing. It's what multiclassing is: to take a second, third, etc class on top of your first. Why you want to and how you use those new class levels is of course going to vary by player. You are not wrong to think how you think about multiclassing/taking levels of a different class. But it is not fair to use it as justification for saying Liam's playing of paladin was not "really" playing paladin. And if you're not using it as justification then I understand even less on why you're mentioning this at all because it otherwise has no relevance to this discussion on "has anyone taken paladin".
Because I live in the UK, it's a real pain to watch Critical Role live (for obvious reasons). However, it's school holidays at the moment, and I have NO RESPONSIBILITIES at all this week! With the help of my good friend sugar, I'm gonna try and stay up till 3 am this Thursday (technically Friday) and watch the damn thing live! Pray for meeee!!!!
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So I'm not caught up yet (50 episodes into campaign 1, 12 into campaign 2) but it strikes me that all of them have characteristics that carry over from campaign 1 to 2:
Travis- male melee specialist of a race which is known for their brutality, with a penchant for weapons that have some weirdness to them
Marisha- female who technically wields a staff in combat but who in actuality more often attacks with other body parts, has as part of her backstory a larger organization which is overseeing her growth.
Liam- socially awkward male, with trouble effectively communicating, and whose bond with the group is predicated on his bond with a female within the group. Often raises questions as to the groups purpose and direction.
Sam- plays a small character who serves as comedic relief, espouses cowardice in the face of battle, and displays discomfort with the very essence if their being.
Laura- female with parental issues who brings something else onto the battlefield they control. That's all I've got, Laura has done an excellent job pivoting entirely.
Taliesin- male, plays a class which is not in the phb, dresses rather fancily, weilds weapons which are unique in how they operate and which are central to a backstory he is secretive about, at least initially.
Ashley- beyond the most obvious (not always there), plays a female with strong ties, especially in backstory, to a male party member. Not sure beyond that, at the point I'm at I've not learned overly much about her character.
What else carries over? Note this is all in fun, they're all doing a great job developing characters which are different from the last campaign with their own personalities and identities, and as much as possible it'd be nice to keep replies to this spoiler free, or at least flagged, as I'm still working my way through the respective campaigns
Also interesting to note how in many ways the new characters zig where Vox Machina zagged, so to speak. Both of Laura's characters have a certain interest in money, true, but for different reasons: Vex was insecure and miserly because of the twins' upbringing, convinced that being well-off would change how others saw her, while Jester is clearly accustomed to always having more than she needs and spending frivolously, and being out on her own in the wider world is a drastic shift in her reality.
It applies to the others, too. Beau is jaded where Keyleth was naïve, Molly is a street hustler and carnie while Percy came from wealthy nobility, Nott can't tell a convincing lie to save her life when Scanlan's wild yarns were often key to VM's success, etc.
So... that happened.
Yup. This is probably the first perma-death in the series since they've started streaming. And once again, its Taliesin's character, just like the pre-stream one before Percy.
Vax should've had a perma-death, but Matt had to make a call because it was pretty late in the game to introduce a new character in a live stream (it's a lot easier in a home game). It also kinda would've punished Liam, because he would've had to had a crash course in a new class. Not to mention that with them being that late in the game, and the audience having been that attached to the characters without that fear, it was a smart decision to not have to fight off audience anger and walk into the final fights.
I absolutely love the constant risk of perma-death, and when it happens it ups the stakes. I stream a game on Twitch (for an audience of like 6), and my first character died fairly early. After he did, the other players started taking it very seriously. I have a policy as a policy (and I encourage my players to do it) to have 2-3 backup characters in place, which allowed us to have a session 0.5, where I presented my characters to get input on them to help me decide. Consequently, I think that the other players have at least put some thought into it, which is a good idea when death is on the line.
That being said, while it was very heartwrenching to watch Mollymauk die, he was the character that I liked the least. I didn't hate him. I just didn't like him all that much. I couldn't tell you why. It's kind of like with Paul Walker. He seems like he was a great guy, but every time I saw him I wanted to punch him in the face. Even when I didn't know it was him at the time, like in Pleasantville, I just had that urge, and when I found out later it suddenly made sense to me, because there isn't anyone else that elicits that urge in me. So, while Mollymauk is gone, and I'll be sad about it for a while, I'm a little happy about it, and I'm excited to see what new character Taliesin brings to the table. I think the one class they haven't covered yet is Paladin, and I think it's exactly thing they need right now. Even when Laura comes back, they only have one healer, so a combat medic isn't a bad thing to have.
Fighter, Paladin and Sorcerer are the only classes left, I think, though I wouldn't be surprised if he rolls an already used class.
It'll be interesting, but I'm of a similar mind. If its anyone, at least it was Molly. Course, I felt the same about Percy until the Briarwood arc. It was very likely that Molly might have gotten his own story arc, though perhaps not as large, that would have elevated him also.
Percy was a fighter, (Gunslinger is an archetype) and Tiberius was a sorcerer. Paladin is the only class the main cast hasn't played on stream, though his character pre-stream for Vox Machina was Paladin.
As my own aside... It really seemed like, from my perspective, Taliesen wanted Mollymauk to be something that his skills and abilities wouldn't let him be. He wanted to be the face and do all of these wonderfully Charismatic thing, but his Charisma was purely average. He wanted to be able to stay back in combat and only approach when his swords would be advantageous, but his only ranged abilities were Charisma based. It felt like he was trying to play a College of Swords bard, but he happened to be playing a Blood Hunter with average Charisma. Just my opinion, anyways, but I felt bad watching him try to do things he was excited about, only to have them bork because the character he made wasn't built for it. I'm very curious what he'll pull out next, and I hope it'll let him play out the character however he imagines it!
Oh, I thought Tiberius was a wizard, my bad. I knew Percy was a Fighter subclass, but his subclass near-eclipsed everything about the Fighter, so I didn't count it.
You people keep saying Paladin is the only one left but not really true. Vax was Paladin, albeit as a multiclass.
Campaign 1
Grog: Barbarian (Path of the Beserker) / Fighter (Battle Master)
Keyleth: Druid (Circle of the Moon)
Percy: Fighter (Gunslinger)
Pike: Cleric (War Domain)
Scanlan: Bard (College of Lore)
Tary: Artificer (Alchemist)
Tiberius: Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline)
Vax: Rogue (Assassin) / Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) / Druid (no subclass)
Vex: Ranger (Beastmaster) / Rogue (Assassin)
Campaign 2
Fjord: Warlock (Hexblade)
Beau: Monk (Way of the Cobalt Soul)
Caleb: Wizard (School of Transmutation)
Nott: Rogue (Arcane Trickster)
Jester: Cleric (Trickery Domain)
Mollymauk: Blood Hunter (Order of the Ghostslayer)
Yasha: Barbarian (Path of the Zealot)
There is no class they have not played.
There are still plenty of subclasses they have not tried however and races they have not been.
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Vax was a paladin, but only kinda. He didn't really play like a paladin, more focusing on the RP aspects, even though he took 6 levels of it. Don't get me wrong, I think that was a cool character choice, but I don't know how much that counts. It would be more arguable that Vex was more rogue than Vax was paladin because she really tried to start leaning into it, but she wasn't very successful at it either, using rogue as more of an augmentation of her ranger class. This isn't to say that you can't multiclass rogue/paladin and it not count. It's just my personal opinion that's not what was happening with Vax. At least for me, when you multiclass the point is to create a character concept that doesn't exist otherwise. If a paladin is a holy warrior, then the rogue paladin would be a divine spy, or maybe somthing like the Spanish Inquisition (especially after Xanathar's).
The reason why I don't create the same distinction with Percy's fighter is that it was much more in line with a ranged fighter. Just because the fighter is most commonly used as a tank doesn't mean that's the only option. Mechanically speaking, DMG pistols are not dissimilar to hand crossbows that use bigger dice, and the ones that Matt and Taliesin created are just guns with much more complicated rules designed to make it more interesting while trying to achieve balance. What we percieve as Percy shooting a bunch is just the fighter's multi-attack feature, and he frequently used action surge.
This isn't to say that I'm trying to completely dismiss what your trying to say. I'm just trying to provide context for why I presented it the way that I did. I didn't forget that Vax took levels in paladin. Just that it doesn't feel quite the same to me.
I never thought about it that way, but maybe that's why I didn't like Mollymauk that much. There was something missing there, and my subconscious filled in the void that my conscious brain couldn't reconcile. Taliesin had a character in mind but, just like his accent, it just never stuck. Perhaps he was too close to the character, so it was hard for him to not slip in and out. A prime example is when Nott revealed the gun. Mollymauk wouldn't have cared one bit about it, but it very clearly bothered Taliesin, and because character and player were very close, he made a player choice, not a character choice, when he tried to take the gun away from Nott. After all, Nott was complying with the moral rules that Mollymauk established, which Nott has been trying to follow, being that his only other experiences with social morays is with goblin tribes.
You have some extremely strict rules about what counts as using Paladin and considering what is considered "really" playing it. From an RP perspective he was the Champion of the Raven Queen and it became an important plot point for the whole story and for his character. He was a holy warrior in her name, he served her loyally. I think that counts as an RP perspective (just because he's multiclass with rogue should not mean he "must" become a "spy" because many people use multiclass as a means of telling how somebody is transitioning away from their main path (he was becoming less of an assassin and became more involved as a servant of the Raven Queen and did not become one as result of his rogue history)) and as for the mechanical aspects I would, personally, consider using divine smite and the channel divinity and even spells in most combats to be playing a paladin. I'm weird like that. But hey if somebody using divine smite and channel divinity (he liked to use Vow of Emnity for that advantage-sneak attack) and frequently using lay on hands is not enough for you to consider them "really" playing the paladin that's your prerogative - I'll just be very, very, glad I'm not playing one in a game you're a DM of because it seems that would suck. But now we know that for you:
I can only wonder what actually is a real paladin to you if RPing one convincingly (as appropriate for the god being followed) and very frequently using paladin features is not "really" being a paladin.
This is just confusing the hell out of me. Percy's fighter thing isn't comparable to Vax's Paladin. Percy didn't multiclass. He was a Fighter that took the Gunslinger archetype. So the fact one is multiclass and the other isn't is distinction enough. Only one person said fighter was a class nobody took and only because they did not realise Percy was a fighter and this was corrected for them. People also seemed to forget Grog was multiclassed into Fighter as well (which would have been a better example since Travis used those fighter features a lot less than Vax used Paladin). My only confusion was people saying Paladin was the only class nobody took which, regardless of what you feel is or is not "really" playing Paladin, is not true. Especially if you don't rely on "on-stream" because prior to the stream Taliesin played a dragnborn paladin.
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You're getting far more worked up about this than is necessary, friend. Yes, prestream Taliesin was a Paladin, but we didn't really get to see that. And yes, Liam multiclassed into a Paladin because his Champion of the Raven Queen plot arc demanded it, but he never stopped being a Rogue. Him being a paladin, whether you're speaking mechanically or roleplay, was a very distant second to his character's identity as a rogue. Ashley's Pike was more of a Paladin type of character than Liam's Vax, in my opinion. Even more so with Percy's gunslinger being a subclass of fighter, or Grog's multiclassing. Their other attributes eclipsed that one so totally that it might as well not even been there. There was little "fighter" in Percy's gunslinger.
I was mistaken about Tiberius however, I had always assumed he was a Wizard and not a Sorcerer. That said, his relatively short time with the series could leave the class open. Additionally, Mercer's Blood Hunter has subclasses that drastically change the class in ways I don't think any other class does, leaving other options available there.
It doesn't mean Taliesin must or should try to go for something nobody else really has, it's just that these are the options I would set forth if that was so. Nothing's stopping him from choosing a Monk or Barbarian, for instance, even the same subclass. I honestly wouldn't mind if he ran another Blood Hunter Order of the Ghostslayer either.
There's honestly nothing here worth debating about, I only mean to clarify my own position from earlier and I'm leaving it at that.
To start: dude, chill. You're overthinking things, and getting far more worked up than you need to. I was just reflecting on how I specifically felt about the difference between Vax as a multi-class and other situations. As Conn_Eremon points out, it felt like he never stopped being a rogue, even though about a third of his levels were actually paladin, which is distinctly different than the way that I view multi-classing.
I guess the main difference is that Vax (and Vex) took on a second class, which is distinct from multi-classing. I view them as being different approaches to the same action, that's all. That's why I gave the example of a divine spy as multi-classing, becuase the way that I view it is that multi-classing is to create something new, whereas taking on a second class comes from an augmentation or RP reason. Both of which, might I add, are perfectly reasonable choices to make. As a DM, I would never restrict someone from making a legal character. As a player, I'm all about single class, but that's my play-style.
Speaking of which, you put a whole lot of words into my mouth that I didn't even allude to, saying more on the subject than I did. I don't appreciate your tone, your inferences, and your blanket statements. You don't know me, and you have a very narrow window into my views on things. Even if you went through all of my posts (which isn't likely), less than 100 of them isn't enough to get a picture of how I run or play things.
The funniest thing to me is that you're actually pretty seriously wrong. I don't have one view of the way a class should work. I don't even have one view of the way a subclass should work. I find a balance between mechanics and role-play (often going back and forth a few times to make adjustments), and put my largest priority on how that person would react in any given situation, whether it's an environmental, social, or combat encounter, and if I'm DM'ing I encourage my players to do the same (although it's ultimately up to them to balance their fun with the rest of the party). If my character is strictly a poster child for a class, then that's how I'll react, but I find that to be extremely boring. I like to subvert expectations. I stream a game with a few friends, and my ghostwise halfling is decidedly un-halfling-like, which is reflective of his history. I started with an aasimar bard, who I envisioned as a workhorse spellcaster, which is not quite a support or jack-of-all-trades bard. I enjoy making fun twists with my characters, but within the bounds of what would draw them to that class in the first place. I also like to establish my character based on the subclass I intend on taking while still being flexible in case the story shapes their views.
Please do not mistake any of my posts as me being worked up. My post you're replying to was made with a smile and humour. It may not be humour you are used to, but in my culture here this is humorous and polite. In the two and a half decades of visiting forums online I have made an angry/worked up exactly twice, both a long time ago and both were because they were made by people known offline making personal attacks against people I know and care about. Words from some stranger online will never get me worked up or upset - you could completely insult my dead mother and I'd just laugh and think it adorable. I can't actually confirm you exist beyond some words on a screen - so how worked up could I be, especially given the topic is about some game with fictional characters? Ha, you're cute.
Having said that, you do immediately lose all credibility or respect for trying to dictate to me what is or is not necessary for me to be worked up over - only I have that authority, you don't. If I felt it necessary to be angry, then it is necessary, regardless of your opinion on the matter. My emotional level in my responses are mine. I mean, sure, I agree with you but that isn't the point.
Vax becoming a Paladin was not because of the Raven Queen. Liam was thinking of becoming a Paladin for a quite a long time - beginning in the Briarwood Arc. It was why he was asking Pike about her relationship with Sarenrae and why he was wearing Sarenrae's symbol. By the time he decided to actually do it, bam, he came the Champion of the Raven Queen. What this meant was up to him - it did not come with any class requirements nor was it for him to begin multiclassing. Do remember that Purvan, the previous champion, was not a paladin and was actually a Ranger - Beast Master. The only thing that this all changed for Vax was instead of becoming Paladin of Sarenrae he became Paladin of the Raven Queen.
You seem to be taking it that multiclass means you suddenly forget and stop being/using the first class. Not how it works. Just because he remained a Rogue doesn't mean he wasn't also a Paladin. From an RP perspective he played it into his character. No not as a crusader type - Paladins do not have to be played that way - and it was an important part of his identity (in terms of service) and part of his story. That is what the cast care most about. From a mechanical side of things he played the Paladin features every chance he got, like anyone would, so not sure why you just ignore that. It will seem less than his "Rogue" but then he's 6 level Paladin while 14 Rogue so of course he'll remain favouring Rogue. This does not mean he was any less of a 6th level Paladin.
How you think he played it is beyond irrelevant when we're discussing "what would Taliesin take?" because it's about what Taliesin and the cast think and as far as they are concerned they recognised Vax's paladin multiclass.
At the end of the day Liam went to Matt and said "I'm multiclassing into paladin" and so he has taken Paladin class which means that class has, technically, been played (how well is irrevelant). People saying "nobody's been paladin" is therefore incorrect and my post which has somehow sparked this side discussion is to point out that yes somebody has taken Paladin. He took 6 levels which means he took more of that class than any current Mighty Nein character has taken their classes given they're only level 5.
Yeah. I mean it wasn't like he was using the main fighter features like Fighting Style... Oh, wait he did take Archery style and was factoring the +2 damage bonus to his ranged weapon attacks, ah well but clearly he wasn't using Second Wind whe.... Oh he did, everytime he was injured?.. Ah, but he never used Indomitable.. Aside from all those numerous times he did.. so ok scratch that... Action Surge... Well, yes he did use that a lot. But it's not like he was using the Ext... Oh no, yes, Extra Attacks used every single time. Ah, but the archetype completely different than any oth-- Oh, it's just a reworked Battle Master. Well, gee... And.. that's everything. Hmm, so, your statement is utterly and completely unfounded and baseless in every conveivable way... Interesting.
The stuff you people come up with is riveting, really. I have to wonder if we even watched the same show.
We evidently disagree on "worth". XD
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Rubahak, pretty much anything I would say in response to you would be found in my response to Conn_Eramon, since you're saying basically the same thing for the most part and even use similar phrases. You may as well just be one person.
I will say you're a hypocrite. You say Liam was not "really" playing a Paladin based on how he roleplayed, suggesting it did not fit what you expected (a holy spy being an example given) but now say people breaking expectations is a good and something you do yourself. Make up your mind. He played Paladin in his own way, a way the rest of the cast recognised. So he did play Paladin in RP terms. And he used the features every chance he got, so he played it mechanically too. So, not unreasonable for me to be confused by you saying his playing of paladin doesn't count.
And your particular opinion of how multiclassing should be is irrelevant and not shared by D&D community, the cast or the rules. Multiclass literally means "more than one class", taking a second class is the exact same thing as multiclassing. It's what multiclassing is: to take a second, third, etc class on top of your first. Why you want to and how you use those new class levels is of course going to vary by player. You are not wrong to think how you think about multiclassing/taking levels of a different class. But it is not fair to use it as justification for saying Liam's playing of paladin was not "really" playing paladin. And if you're not using it as justification then I understand even less on why you're mentioning this at all because it otherwise has no relevance to this discussion on "has anyone taken paladin".
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