I was wondering how anyone would resolve this because I'm stumped:
If a player casts Polymorph on a Tarrasque at full health for example, and it succeeds and they turn it into a cow, if they cast Power Word Kill does that only drop the Polymorph form, or does the magic from Power Word Kill technically carry over to the creature and kill it?
Polymorph reads as, "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies." and goes on to say, "The target assumes the hit points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form."
Power Word Kill doesn't deal damage, but just kills the target if it is under 100 Hit Points. So technically, the creature isn't reduced to 0, it is just killed outright, so when the Tarrasque dies in its cow form, the Tarrasque itself is also dead because dying is dying for monsters, no saves or anything. Right?
The tarrasque is dead, though between its +9 bonus to wisdom saves, advantage on saves against spell effects, and legendary resistances it can probably exhaust your spell slots before you are able to actually transform it for this to work
also, gods help anyone who has been swallowed when it transforms
Disintegrate, on the other hand, will revert the cow back into a tarrasque.
Wouldn't it die too? The Polymorphed body is still it's body, since extra damage is done to the original form. But it hits 0hp before it reverts.
The target is disintegrated if it leaves the target with 0hp. It can't just hit 0HP at some point. Disintegrate damage has to finish resolving, and the end result has to be a creature at 0HP. The instant a polymorphed or wild-shaped creature falls to 0, it reverts to its original form, and the damage then carries over to the original form. It therefore doesn't leave the target with 0HP (assuming the original form had enough HP to tank the hit).
The original version of the spell was worded as "If this damage reducesthe target to 0 Hit Points, it is disintegrated." In that version, you were correct - which is explicitly what designers were addressing when the spell was errata'd in the first place (as well as traits like Relentless Endurance).
The terrasque would not die because it has more than 100 hp, only the cow would die bc no cow has 100 hit points. Power word kill doesn't kill something twice after all.
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Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
The terrasque would not die because it has more than 100 hp, only the cow would die bc no cow has 100 hit points. Power word kill doesn't kill something twice after all.
The Terrasque and the cow aren't two separate creatures though.
The target is disintegrated if it leaves the target with 0hp. It can't just hit 0HP at some point. Disintegrate damage has to finish resolving, and the end result has to be a creature at 0HP. The instant a polymorphed or wild-shaped creature falls to 0, it reverts to its original form, and the damage then carries over to the original form. It therefore doesn't leave the target with 0HP (assuming the original form had enough HP to tank the hit).
I am so confused by the answers on this thread and it makes me wonder if the wording has changed at some point, but the description of Polymorph as of today clearly states,
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies."
This implies the transformation ends even if the target is killed. Then, it later states,
"When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed."
Then adds the additional statement that additional damage carries over which to me seems unrelated in this context. It seems clear to me that if an affect would cause the polymorphed form to die, the transformation ends and when the transformation ends the polymorphed creature returns to its original hitpoints.
The Tarrasque dies from Powerword Kill. Note, in earlier editions, the Tarrasque was outright immune to shape changing, in part because of this.
Now it simply has advantage on the saving throw plus 3 legendary Resistances. Which it will certainly use. If you want to kill the tarrasque with this technique , it will need to fail 2 (Resist), 2 (resist), 2 (resist), 2, 2 or a total of 10 saving throws. Worse, they have to be failed in pairs.
I understand the confusion, but it has been clarified in sage advice as noted in the first response.
Its due to the wording of power word kill. "You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect."
Because the polymorphed Tarrasque uses the stats of a cow, its Hp is below 100. No damage is being dealt, it is simply being killed as apart of the spell. Once the Tarrasque has been killed it reverts back to its original form, but it has still been killed due to the spell. Think of it this way.
Does it have less than 100 Hp? Yes -> It is killed instantly. No -> Then there is no effect.
Both Disintegrate and Power Word Kill do the same, flat out kills the creature, poly’ed or not creature dead.
Now, between a 6th level spell that makes cow-Tarrasque go poofff in dust, or 9th level that leaves a dead Terresque in the middle of wherever, give me cheap and easy.
Both Disintegrate and Power Word Kill do the same, flat out kills the creature, poly’ed or not creature dead.
Incorrect; the only thing Disintegrate does to kill a creature is deal damage, which is then resolved per Polymorph's description of damage in excess of the form's HP carrying over. Turning the body into dust only happens after the damage calculation has been resolved and the target is at 0 HP- the precise wording is "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points", which would only work if the initial excess then reduced the Tarrasque's HP to 0. It's the same scenario as Relentless Endurance, which reads "when you are reduced to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 HP instead". At one stage in the sequence HP is at 0, but Disintegrate doesn't destroy the body until the damage sequence is fully resolved. Power Word Kill bypasses the damage process entirely and simply renders a target dead if their HP is below the threshold.
Both Disintegrate and Power Word Kill do the same, flat out kills the creature, poly’ed or not creature dead.
Incorrect; the only thing Disintegrate does to kill a creature is deal damage, which is then resolved per Polymorph's description of damage in excess of the form's HP carrying over. Turning the body into dust only happens after the damage calculation has been resolved and the target is at 0 HP- the precise wording is "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points", which would only work if the initial excess then reduced the Tarrasque's HP to 0. It's the same scenario as Relentless Endurance, which reads "when you are reduced to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 HP instead". At one stage in the sequence HP is at 0, but Disintegrate doesn't destroy the body until the damage sequence is fully resolved. Power Word Kill bypasses the damage process entirely and simply renders a target dead if their HP is below the threshold.
The entire effects of Disintegrate are resolved before Polymorph trigger is activated, Terresque is cow, therefore cow hit 0hp, cow is now vaporized.
hard to polymorph back from dust, and yes Disintegrate is that OP, especially if you successfully poly the Tarrasque into an easily destructible form.
Because if Disintegrate causes Tarrasque to poly back, then PWK does the same, and the 100hp condition wouldn’t apply to the unpoly’ed titan.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash?
Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.
What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate ? Does the druid simply leave beast form?
The druid leaves beast form. As usual, any leftover damage then applies to the druid’s normal hit points. If the leftover damage leaves the druid with 0 hit points, the druid is disintegrated.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash?
Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.
What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate ? Does the druid simply leave beast form?
The druid leaves beast form. As usual, any leftover damage then applies to the druid’s normal hit points. If the leftover damage leaves the druid with 0 hit points, the druid is disintegrated.
SAC is the opinion of an individual, Disintegrate plainly states in it’s description:
“A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d6 + 40 force damage. The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points.
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.”
so as soon as creature hits 0hp, ashes to ashes dust to dust, and how fast is that, instantaneously.
if the two spells were swapped in slot level, sure it fit better, but disintegrate has been a 6th level spell since the 1e days, and has been just as OP then as it is currently, so 50 years says otherwise.
Hell, I dare someone to run the math and give me a solid percentage of exactly the chance a person has to get a Tarrasque polymorphed given the creatures stats.
Then look close to how polymorph changes the stats of the former creature to that of the new form, and no new form doesn’t get to keep the abilities of the former form, and it’s pretty easy to see that new form is f’ed in a-hole by disintegrate.
SAC is the opinion of an individual, Disintegrate plainly states in it’s description:
“A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d6 + 40 force damage. The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points.
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.”
so as soon as creature hits 0hp, ashes to ashes dust to dust, and how fast is that, instantaneously.
if the two spells were swapped in slot level, sure it fit better, but disintegrate has been a 6th level spell since the 1e days, and has been just as OP then as it is currently, so 50 years says otherwise.
Hell, I dare someone to run the math and give me a solid percentage of exactly the chance a person has to get a Tarrasque polymorphed given the creatures stats.
Then look close to how polymorph changes the stats of the former creature to that of the new form, and no new form doesn’t get to keep the abilities of the former form, and it’s pretty easy to see that new form is f’ed in a-hole by disintegrate.
SAC is more than the opinion of an individual they are official rulings. If Jeremy Crawford Tweets something it it is just his opinion, if it makes the SAC it is an offical ruling.
"Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice."
There is certainly ambiguity with how polymorph combines with disintegrate. An attack on a polymorphed creature that reduces it to 0 HP results in it returning to its normal form but it is not clear whether disintegrate in the example "leaves" a cow with 0 hit points of a terrasque with lots of hit points. The SAC is an official ruling to clarify that the later happens and the terrasque returns.
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I was wondering how anyone would resolve this because I'm stumped:
If a player casts Polymorph on a Tarrasque at full health for example, and it succeeds and they turn it into a cow, if they cast Power Word Kill does that only drop the Polymorph form, or does the magic from Power Word Kill technically carry over to the creature and kill it?
Polymorph reads as, "The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies." and goes on to say, "The target assumes the hit points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form."
Power Word Kill doesn't deal damage, but just kills the target if it is under 100 Hit Points. So technically, the creature isn't reduced to 0, it is just killed outright, so when the Tarrasque dies in its cow form, the Tarrasque itself is also dead because dying is dying for monsters, no saves or anything. Right?
According to Sage Advice, dead is dead.
The tarrasque is dead.
Disintegrate, on the other hand, will revert the cow back into a tarrasque.
The tarrasque is dead, though between its +9 bonus to wisdom saves, advantage on saves against spell effects, and legendary resistances it can probably exhaust your spell slots before you are able to actually transform it for this to work
also, gods help anyone who has been swallowed when it transforms
Wouldn't it die too? The Polymorphed body is still it's body, since extra damage is done to the original form. But it hits 0hp before it reverts.
The target is disintegrated if it leaves the target with 0hp. It can't just hit 0HP at some point. Disintegrate damage has to finish resolving, and the end result has to be a creature at 0HP. The instant a polymorphed or wild-shaped creature falls to 0, it reverts to its original form, and the damage then carries over to the original form. It therefore doesn't leave the target with 0HP (assuming the original form had enough HP to tank the hit).
The original version of the spell was worded as "If this damage reduces the target to 0 Hit Points, it is disintegrated." In that version, you were correct - which is explicitly what designers were addressing when the spell was errata'd in the first place (as well as traits like Relentless Endurance).
The terrasque would not die because it has more than 100 hp, only the cow would die bc no cow has 100 hit points. Power word kill doesn't kill something twice after all.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
The Terrasque and the cow aren't two separate creatures though.
As Atherwolf says:
I am so confused by the answers on this thread and it makes me wonder if the wording has changed at some point, but the description of Polymorph as of today clearly states,
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies."
This implies the transformation ends even if the target is killed. Then, it later states,
"When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed."
Then adds the additional statement that additional damage carries over which to me seems unrelated in this context. It seems clear to me that if an affect would cause the polymorphed form to die, the transformation ends and when the transformation ends the polymorphed creature returns to its original hitpoints.
i.e, Tarrasque cow become Tarrasque Tarrasque.
The Tarrasque dies from Powerword Kill. Note, in earlier editions, the Tarrasque was outright immune to shape changing, in part because of this.
Now it simply has advantage on the saving throw plus 3 legendary Resistances. Which it will certainly use. If you want to kill the tarrasque with this technique , it will need to fail 2 (Resist), 2 (resist), 2 (resist), 2, 2 or a total of 10 saving throws. Worse, they have to be failed in pairs.
Good luck with that.
I understand the confusion, but it has been clarified in sage advice as noted in the first response.
Its due to the wording of power word kill. "You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect."
Because the polymorphed Tarrasque uses the stats of a cow, its Hp is below 100. No damage is being dealt, it is simply being killed as apart of the spell. Once the Tarrasque has been killed it reverts back to its original form, but it has still been killed due to the spell. Think of it this way.
Does it have less than 100 Hp? Yes -> It is killed instantly. No -> Then there is no effect.
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and then it turns back into a living full hp tarrasque becaus if the polymorphd creature dies it just turns back
Everyone else just finished explaining that you are wrong. It turns backs dead because Power word kill kills, it does not lower hp.
Both Disintegrate and Power Word Kill do the same, flat out kills the creature, poly’ed or not creature dead.
Now, between a 6th level spell that makes cow-Tarrasque go poofff in dust, or 9th level that leaves a dead Terresque in the middle of wherever, give me cheap and easy.
Byte my shiny metal ass
Incorrect; the only thing Disintegrate does to kill a creature is deal damage, which is then resolved per Polymorph's description of damage in excess of the form's HP carrying over. Turning the body into dust only happens after the damage calculation has been resolved and the target is at 0 HP- the precise wording is "The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points", which would only work if the initial excess then reduced the Tarrasque's HP to 0. It's the same scenario as Relentless Endurance, which reads "when you are reduced to 0 HP but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 HP instead". At one stage in the sequence HP is at 0, but Disintegrate doesn't destroy the body until the damage sequence is fully resolved. Power Word Kill bypasses the damage process entirely and simply renders a target dead if their HP is below the threshold.
The entire effects of Disintegrate are resolved before Polymorph trigger is activated, Terresque is cow, therefore cow hit 0hp, cow is now vaporized.
hard to polymorph back from dust, and yes Disintegrate is that OP, especially if you successfully poly the Tarrasque into an easily destructible form.
Because if Disintegrate causes Tarrasque to poly back, then PWK does the same, and the 100hp condition wouldn’t apply to the unpoly’ed titan.
Byte my shiny metal ass
The SAC disagrees with you. They clearly state that the two spells would lead to a different outcome.
About disintegrate:
About PWK:
SAC is the opinion of an individual, Disintegrate plainly states in it’s description:
“A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d6 + 40 force damage. The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points.
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.”
so as soon as creature hits 0hp, ashes to ashes dust to dust, and how fast is that, instantaneously.
if the two spells were swapped in slot level, sure it fit better, but disintegrate has been a 6th level spell since the 1e days, and has been just as OP then as it is currently, so 50 years says otherwise.
Hell, I dare someone to run the math and give me a solid percentage of exactly the chance a person has to get a Tarrasque polymorphed given the creatures stats.
Then look close to how polymorph changes the stats of the former creature to that of the new form, and no new form doesn’t get to keep the abilities of the former form, and it’s pretty easy to see that new form is f’ed in a-hole by disintegrate.
Byte my shiny metal ass
SAC is more than the opinion of an individual they are official rulings. If Jeremy Crawford Tweets something it it is just his opinion, if it makes the SAC it is an offical ruling.
"Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice."
There is certainly ambiguity with how polymorph combines with disintegrate. An attack on a polymorphed creature that reduces it to 0 HP results in it returning to its normal form but it is not clear whether disintegrate in the example "leaves" a cow with 0 hit points of a terrasque with lots of hit points. The SAC is an official ruling to clarify that the later happens and the terrasque returns.