(though oddly enough I've never had a player cast that spell in 3+ years of DMing)
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free. Not having a casting cost and being consumed is kinda the opposite, yet equivalent of having a price listed but not being consumed. I stand corrected it is required, but the amount used is negligible. So, if ♾ is “unacceptable,” then (♾➖1️⃣). Or an amount > (#️⃣➕1️⃣) where #️⃣ = the number of times they cast the spell.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
I can only guess at the intent of the writers, but here's what I kind of assume is what they were thinking...
For whatever reason, someone on the design team didn't want players to be able to use a spell focus for this specific spell... so the decision was made to make it require Holy Water. But seemingly as a "just-in-case" if, for whatever reason, it would be unreasonable for the player to have access to Holy Water, they also included a fairly valuable secondary material component in the form of silver/iron powder. That's all well and good, but then when we get to the actual effects of the spell... it's not really good enough of a spell to justify spending 25gp every time you use it. It's not even really worth making sure the player spends 25 GP to get a full flask, even if it functionally stays full the entire time. So no cost is associated, but it's still required that the material be consumed, seemingly just to prevent players from using a spellcasting focus.
It's all nonsense, really. And what really confuses me, as has been pointed out, the spell Bless also calls for Holy Water, but just requires a "sprinkling", which sounds like it would also functionally consume the water (it's very hard to sprinkle water and then pick it back up afterward), but the spell doesn't state that the Holy Water is consumed and, therefore, it's treated as being one of the many components held in a Component Pouch that all kind of exists within the pouch itself, but mechanically I don't think you're allowed to pull stuff out of it to use for other purposes. Sticking with Holy Water-based spells... Regenerate also calls for Holy Water, as well as a Prayer Wheel, so it can be safely assumed then that all Component Pouches contain, somehow, an unspecified volume of Holy Water as well as a Prayer Wheel, just in case.
Also, for my own sake, I decided to look up a Prayer Wheel because I realized I wasn't even sure what that was, but it turns out it's about the size of a Wand. I guess you could just say you have like... a tiny bead-sized prayer wheel in your component pouch... but either way... Component Pouches are weird. It's mostly just a way to Handwave Material components... either Component Pouches come pre-loaded with every possible material component that doesn't have gold value or gets consumed, or it's just kind of accepted that, whether you say it in-character or not, at some point in your spellcaster's day they gather or purchase the materials they need and restock the pouch. Sort of like using the bathroom or cleaning your clothes... very few people ever actually say that they're doing it, but it's kind of just assumed that it happens at some point.
So with all that said, here's my thoughts on Protection from Evil and Good... it's a poorly worded spell that should have been errata'd by now... either by removing the need to consume the items, or to give a specific GP cost to the components and having it not consume them. I think it's entirely reasonable to just assume that a Component Pouch has, at minimum, enough Holy Water to be used for the spell... either the Component Pouch just naturally has all possible components in it to begin with, or it's handwaved as your character, at some point, gathering a trivial volume of the components needed and storing it somewhere in the pouch.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Okay, so looking at this... If I'm reading this correctly, A spellcasting focus does not replace components that are consumed, even if the consumed items are not given any monetary cost. With Protection from Evil and Good, you still have to go out of your way to acquire either Holy Water or Powdered Silver and Iron. However, because it doesn't list a monetary value, it's totally up to DM's discretion how much of that component is required. We know that Holy Water costs 25 GP for a flask, so a picky DM might require that much Holy Water to be consumed with each casting of the spell. But a lenient DM might say that a few droplets evaporate but the flask is still largely full.
How many spells actually consume their material component but don't assign a gold value to the material consumed? I feel like these are mostly edge cases that I believe newer content mostly avoids, since it creates unnecessary confusion. I know that if I was DM'ing a game I would just let a spellcasting focus be used if only to avoid the headache.
I guess i'm hardline, but in my interpretation a flask of holy water is the smallest unit of holy water that can have an effect on anything (either the items ranged attack or for use in components). if the flask can lose material and still be valid the item would say so.
If a spell's material components have a cost, that will appear in their entry. You are artificially adding in your own homebrew cost for this particular spell. By RAW, the amount of Holy Water required for this spell has no listed cost, so the amount must necessarily be so small or insignificant that it has no coin valuation despite a vial being worth 25g. The component pouch, RAW, also has whatever components necessary for your spell should that spell not have a listed cost, so has a sufficient amount of Holy Water to cast this spell however many times the caster wants to.
I don't care about tracking non-consumable components, but the components in the spell in question are both 1) unvalued and 2) consumable which raises the question of 1) how much is required and 2) how is it replenished.
Spell component pouches have all the components you need for material components that have no listed value in the spell entry. So... 1. an amount that your component pouch has enough for. 2. If you lose your pouch you go buy another one. Otherwise it doesn't need to be replenished.
I absolutely think that players should track and have to replenish consumable components, and leave the rest to their foci/pouches. and I think that the DM gets to decide "how much" is required. If I say a flask, then it's a flask (at my table).
You're free to homebrew whatever you like, as with all things, the DM makes the final call, even if that means disregarding the rules of the game.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Okay, so looking at this... If I'm reading this correctly, A spellcasting focus does not replace components that are consumed, even if the consumed items are not given any monetary cost. With Protection from Evil and Good, you still have to go out of your way to acquire either Holy Water or Powdered Silver and Iron. However, because it doesn't list a monetary value, it's totally up to DM's discretion how much of that component is required. We know that Holy Water costs 25 GP for a flask, so a picky DM might require that much Holy Water to be consumed with each casting of the spell. But a lenient DM might say that a few droplets evaporate but the flask is still largely full.
How many spells actually consume their material component but don't assign a gold value to the material consumed? I feel like these are mostly edge cases that I believe newer content mostly avoids, since it creates unnecessary confusion. I know that if I was DM'ing a game I would just let a spellcasting focus be used if only to avoid the headache.
I guess i'm hardline, but in my interpretation a flask of holy water is the smallest unit of holy water that can have an effect on anything (either the items ranged attack or for use in components). if the flask can lose material and still be valid the item would say so.
If a spell's material components have a cost, that will appear in their entry. You are artificially adding in your own homebrew cost for this particular spell. By RAW, the amount of Holy Water required for this spell has no listed cost, so the amount must necessarily be so small or insignificant that it has no coin valuation despite a vial being worth 25g. The component pouch, RAW, also has whatever components necessary for your spell should that spell not have a listed cost, so has a sufficient amount of Holy Water to cast this spell however many times the caster wants to.
The lack of a stated cost does not mean zero cost, and the amount is consumed, which the rules say you must provide for each individual casting. That means at some point you will run out, component pouch or no. And because the components themselves are fairly rare (compared to most non-cost components anyway), it can't be guaranteed that you will be able to replenish as a point of "downtime", especially in a place without a temple or the means to powder the iron or silver. Yes, my cost is homebrew (and if you had read on, you'd find I'm willing to negotiate on the cost of each casting), but so is everyone elses, because the way the rule is written leaves out so much information its impossible to know what RAW is here.
You don’t need a flask of holy water, just a sprinkle of it. Your component pouch doesn’t need to hold a flask of holy water either. If you know a spell that requires an unspecified amount of holy water, and it oh have a component pouch, it is assumed that you always keep a tiny little bit of holy water in it, just enough to cast the spell as often as needed. If you use a focus instead of a pouch, you don’t need any holy water at all, the focus does the job for you.
Barring some errata or Sage Advice ruling on this I'm unaware of, the bolded is entirely DM interpretation.
Eh... Even if it was errata's and sage advice that isn't going to stop DMs from having the final say on what happens in their games. You are ALWAYS free to homebrew it whatever way you like.
Also, for the rest of the statement, why then specify that the component is consumed if there is an easy way for nearly every spellcaster to bypass it's consumption? I fully understand and support a pouch containing the non-consumable items you use for casting, but if something is consumed, then that is a resource that should be finite and managed just like any other, and I don't feel I'm wrong for making my players actually acquire more and track what they have. It's not like this is a resource that can just be "found" either. either you are consciously making or buying holy water or buying or refining and grinding the iron/silver to dust.
Not everyone wants to force a nickle and dime style their player's inventory management. I think it is tedious and boring, personally. Games are for fun and keeping an excel spreadsheet for my character's inventory is the opposite of that. Actively un-fun.
But everyone finds joy in different places, and if micromanaging microscopic quantities of fictional holy waters is your thing, you are well within your rights as a DM to go for it.
It's not like the "forked twig" type component that could be found willy-nilly in the wilderness that you can assume they pick up as needed.
I take exception to this. You can't just find the perfect forked twig just anywhere! You can settle for just any old 'mediocre' forked twig if you are fine with 'mediocre' spell performance. But for me? The perfect forked twig is worth the time investment to track down. Now if only I had the right material component for the spell to track one down!
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Okay, so looking at this... If I'm reading this correctly, A spellcasting focus does not replace components that are consumed, even if the consumed items are not given any monetary cost. With Protection from Evil and Good, you still have to go out of your way to acquire either Holy Water or Powdered Silver and Iron. However, because it doesn't list a monetary value, it's totally up to DM's discretion how much of that component is required. We know that Holy Water costs 25 GP for a flask, so a picky DM might require that much Holy Water to be consumed with each casting of the spell. But a lenient DM might say that a few droplets evaporate but the flask is still largely full.
How many spells actually consume their material component but don't assign a gold value to the material consumed? I feel like these are mostly edge cases that I believe newer content mostly avoids, since it creates unnecessary confusion. I know that if I was DM'ing a game I would just let a spellcasting focus be used if only to avoid the headache.
I guess i'm hardline, but in my interpretation a flask of holy water is the smallest unit of holy water that can have an effect on anything (either the items ranged attack or for use in components). if the flask can lose material and still be valid the item would say so.
If a spell's material components have a cost, that will appear in their entry. You are artificially adding in your own homebrew cost for this particular spell. By RAW, the amount of Holy Water required for this spell has no listed cost, so the amount must necessarily be so small or insignificant that it has no coin valuation despite a vial being worth 25g. The component pouch, RAW, also has whatever components necessary for your spell should that spell not have a listed cost, so has a sufficient amount of Holy Water to cast this spell however many times the caster wants to.
The lack of a stated cost does not mean zero cost,
...
and the amount is consumed, which the rules say you must provide for each individual casting. That means at some point you will run out, component pouch or no.
No, it doesn't mean that at all. You will never run out if you have a component pouch. You have whatever amount is needed.
And because the components themselves are fairly rare (compared to most non-cost components anyway), it can't be guaranteed that you will be able to replenish as a point of "downtime", especially in a place without a temple or the means to powder the iron or silver.
The DM is free to create any homebrew restrictions they see fit. True.
Yes, my cost is homebrew (and if you had read on, you'd find I'm willing to negotiate on the cost of each casting), but so is everyone elses, because the way the rule is written leaves out so much information its impossible to know what RAW is here.
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And, for those who have cast aspersions on my DM ability or my table
I have had experiences with DMs who seemed more interested in making life miserable for their players than anything else, and putting up unreasonable hurdles to casting first-level spells would be a red flag for me than I may have stumbled onto another one. If you're not one of those, glad to hear it.
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Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
(though oddly enough I've never had a player cast that spell in 3+ years of DMing)
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free. Not having a casting cost and being consumed is kinda the opposite, yet equivalent of having a price listed but not being consumed. I stand corrected it is required, but the amount used is negligible. So, if ♾ is “unacceptable,” then (♾➖1️⃣). Or an amount > (#️⃣➕1️⃣) where #️⃣ = the number of times they cast the spell.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
First of all, if you have never DMed a party that had access to it then you have never DMed. Every Cleric and Warlock in the game has access to it starting at 1st-level, and every Paladin has access to it starting at 2nd-level. Even if the Warlock “never learned” it, every Cleric and Paladin has the choice to prepare the spell every morning.
Why would Summon Lesser Demons require any negotiation whatsoever? It needs no “negotiation,” the M component explicitly states how fresh the blood must be.
For someone who claims to “take a hard line” on this stuff, you sure do a whole lot of negotiating about stuff that’s plain as day. Like, the freshness of a required M component, or the omission of a value stated for the amount of another M component. It sounds more like I take the “hard line” approach: no specific value stated, none required; freshness stated, freshness required; no negotiations.
Component Pouches are weird. It's mostly just a way to Handwave Material components... either Component Pouches come pre-loaded with every possible material component that doesn't have gold value or gets consumed, or it's just kind of accepted that, whether you say it in-character or not, at some point in your spellcaster's day they gather or purchase the materials they need and restock the pouch. Sort of like using the bathroom or cleaning your clothes... very few people ever actually say that they're doing it, but it's kind of just assumed that it happens at some point.
I mean, that's it exactly. Groups and DMs have a range of options based on how "gritty" they want to make the game.
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Like, I’m one of those weirdos who thinks having to track rations and ammunition is fun. All of my PCs carry two waterskins because I’ve had PCs dehydrate to death. They all carry a tinderbox (unless they can do it by Cantrips) & bedrollandblanket because I’ve had PCs die from exposure. They carry string & whetstone to maintain their weapons. I’m the player who does specify clothes cleaning, and going to the bathroom, and even actually packs soap. (Yes, and my cheapskate PC makes his own with his Alchemist's Supplies.)
And I’m the one saying it’s too little holy water to track. 💦 👈 What’s that cost? Put it on my tab I guess…? 🤷♂️
Anyone else just want to agree that the rules aren't really clear on this subject and to just go with whatever their DM says?
Because I feel like everything worth being said was said a while ago and now people are just arguing with tangential hypotheticals...
Because this is the Rules and Mechanics section and therefore we are, in theory, discussing what RAW is, rather than what our homebrew ideas on the subject are.
Some of the discussion is getting pretty off from RAW. Like fractions of a consumable.
If the component is supposed to be infinitely renewable why is it consumed? And why do components without a cost listed in the spell always have costs elsewhere in the rules?
If it is assumed that we can always refill a component pouch with as much of a component as we need passively, then does that mean we passively accumulate an infinite supply of holy water over time? Or an infinite length of rope (for snare)?
It is much easier to assume that this is one more of many poorly defined rules than it is to assume that adventurers passively collect an endless supply of precious metals from the ground.
And it being that this is a poorly written rule, it is up to your DMs to decide if the spells consume a costly component or don't consume a costly component. And there is nothing left to debate.
I’m not sure what all this talk about a spell which doesn’t consume its components is all about. Since its component is both not consumed and not explicitly valuable, it is not at all required and can be replaced by a pouch or focus, unlike the material component of a spell that consumes its component.
I’m not sure what all this talk about a spell which doesn’t consume its components is all about. Since its component is both not consumed and not explicitly valuable, it is not at all required and can be replaced by a pouch or focus, unlike the material component of a spell that consumes its component.
It is absolutely consumed, if you do the extra activity described in the spell to form the protective circle, which explicitly says consumes the material component.
Aside from the flavor it provides, making casting a spell look cool, components in general are meant to be restrictions on spell casting. You have to be able to do whatever is required. If the spell is Verbal only, you can stop their from casting if you can stop them from speaking somehow. It goes on like that. Material Components are mostly little jokes. To cast Fireball, you need a little ball shape that reminds the caster of fire. Bat guano smells like sulfur, so there you go. You use to have to keep track of how many balls of bat guano you had, but it's a nuisance to keep that stuff written down, erasing and rewriting, running out and having to go find somewhere to get more of the stuff.
By now, it's pretty much been solved by a "handwave mechanic", which is kind of a strange turn. A rule for ignoring the rules? Ok. Whatever. We've been talking mostly about the Component Pouch. You can pretty much ignore all components, it's assumed they are in there somewhere. That's fine as long as people don't abuse it. If you've cast a spell however many times and you haven't been anywhere near anyplace you might restock, you run out. The DM gets to decide how much is abusive.
The only time it really matters is when you've got a component that isn't easy to get, is consumed when the spell is cast, and somebody takes away your foci. That will slow down most classes that cast spells, not even a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell can cast spells that require material components, consumed or not. Druids at 2nd level or higher are really hard to keep restrained though, so if there's a Druid around, or any caster with two levels of Druid as a multi-class, a way will almost certainly be found to escape and get your foci back.
(though oddly enough I've never had a player cast that spell in 3+ years of DMing)
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free. Not having a casting cost and being consumed is kinda the opposite, yet equivalent of having a price listed but not being consumed. I stand corrected it is required, but the amount used is negligible. So, if ♾ is “unacceptable,” then (♾➖1️⃣). Or an amount > (#️⃣➕1️⃣) where #️⃣ = the number of times they cast the spell.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
First of all, if you have never DMed a party that had access to it then you have never DMed. Every Cleric and Warlock in the game has access to it starting at 1st-level, and every Paladin has access to it starting at 2nd-level. Even if the Warlock “never learned” it, every Cleric and Paladin has the choice to prepare the spell every morning.
If you would step back and assume that I can use language that might not be absolutely technically correct while having an intent that is fairly clear, what I meant was that no PC has ever learned it for their character (and I know this because I keep track of my player's abilities so I don't accidently throw them something only a certain spell can handle if they don't know it), and if they ever did prepare it, they never cast it.
Why would Summon Lesser Demons require any negotiation whatsoever? It needs no “negotiation,” the M component explicitly states how fresh the blood must be.
For someone who claims to “take a hard line” on this stuff, you sure do a whole lot of negotiating about stuff that’s plain as day. Like, the freshness of a required M component, or the omission of a value stated for the amount of another M component. It sounds more like I take the “hard line” approach: no specific value stated, none required; freshness stated, freshness required; no negotiations.
I said I took a hard line (post #6) because another poster described a point of view I previously iterated (in post #3) as a hard line approach (my words in fact were "I guess I'm hardline...". I have never claimed to be hard line in most other things, and to think that you can extrapolate my entire personality/DM style from one statement is ludicrous. But that said where exactly in my statement on lesser demons did i capitulate to anything less than RAW for that spell? I agree the RAW is clear there and the negotiations were basically in how the player wanted to track stuff vs how I wanted to. The RAW absolutely is not clear for the treatment of material components in PFE&G.
I'm also not sure why I'm on trial here with a number of you. We disagree, it happens all the time, but a lot of you are basically saying I'm a bad DM for treating one spell out of 500 a little more harshly than you would. Kindly lay off the personal aspersions please.
(though oddly enough I've never had a player cast that spell in 3+ years of DMing)
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free. Not having a casting cost and being consumed is kinda the opposite, yet equivalent of having a price listed but not being consumed. I stand corrected it is required, but the amount used is negligible. So, if ♾ is “unacceptable,” then (♾➖1️⃣). Or an amount > (#️⃣➕1️⃣) where #️⃣ = the number of times they cast the spell.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
First of all, if you have never DMed a party that had access to it then you have never DMed. Every Cleric and Warlock in the game has access to it starting at 1st-level, and every Paladin has access to it starting at 2nd-level. Even if the Warlock “never learned” it, every Cleric and Paladin has the choice to prepare the spell every morning.
If you would step back and assume that I can use language that might not be absolutely technically correct while having an intent that is fairly clear, what I meant was that no PC has ever learned it for their character (and I know this because I keep track of my player's abilities so I don't accidently throw them something only a certain spell can handle if they don't know it), and if they ever did prepare it, they never cast it.
See, that’s what I thought you meant the first time, which was why I said:
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
I can only guess at the intent of the writers, but here's what I kind of assume is what they were thinking...
For whatever reason, someone on the design team didn't want players to be able to use a spell focus for this specific spell... so the decision was made to make it require Holy Water. But seemingly as a "just-in-case" if, for whatever reason, it would be unreasonable for the player to have access to Holy Water, they also included a fairly valuable secondary material component in the form of silver/iron powder. That's all well and good, but then when we get to the actual effects of the spell... it's not really good enough of a spell to justify spending 25gp every time you use it. It's not even really worth making sure the player spends 25 GP to get a full flask, even if it functionally stays full the entire time. So no cost is associated, but it's still required that the material be consumed, seemingly just to prevent players from using a spellcasting focus.
It's all nonsense, really. And what really confuses me, as has been pointed out, the spell Bless also calls for Holy Water, but just requires a "sprinkling", which sounds like it would also functionally consume the water (it's very hard to sprinkle water and then pick it back up afterward), but the spell doesn't state that the Holy Water is consumed and, therefore, it's treated as being one of the many components held in a Component Pouch that all kind of exists within the pouch itself, but mechanically I don't think you're allowed to pull stuff out of it to use for other purposes. Sticking with Holy Water-based spells... Regenerate also calls for Holy Water, as well as a Prayer Wheel, so it can be safely assumed then that all Component Pouches contain, somehow, an unspecified volume of Holy Water as well as a Prayer Wheel, just in case.
Also, for my own sake, I decided to look up a Prayer Wheel because I realized I wasn't even sure what that was, but it turns out it's about the size of a Wand. I guess you could just say you have like... a tiny bead-sized prayer wheel in your component pouch... but either way... Component Pouches are weird. It's mostly just a way to Handwave Material components... either Component Pouches come pre-loaded with every possible material component that doesn't have gold value or gets consumed, or it's just kind of accepted that, whether you say it in-character or not, at some point in your spellcaster's day they gather or purchase the materials they need and restock the pouch. Sort of like using the bathroom or cleaning your clothes... very few people ever actually say that they're doing it, but it's kind of just assumed that it happens at some point.
So with all that said, here's my thoughts on Protection from Evil and Good... it's a poorly worded spell that should have been errata'd by now... either by removing the need to consume the items, or to give a specific GP cost to the components and having it not consume them. I think it's entirely reasonable to just assume that a Component Pouch has, at minimum, enough Holy Water to be used for the spell... either the Component Pouch just naturally has all possible components in it to begin with, or it's handwaved as your character, at some point, gathering a trivial volume of the components needed and storing it somewhere in the pouch.
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Anyone else just want to agree that the rules aren't really clear on this subject and to just go with whatever their DM says?
Because I feel like everything worth being said was said a while ago and now people are just arguing with tangential hypotheticals...
If a spell's material components have a cost, that will appear in their entry. You are artificially adding in your own homebrew cost for this particular spell. By RAW, the amount of Holy Water required for this spell has no listed cost, so the amount must necessarily be so small or insignificant that it has no coin valuation despite a vial being worth 25g. The component pouch, RAW, also has whatever components necessary for your spell should that spell not have a listed cost, so has a sufficient amount of Holy Water to cast this spell however many times the caster wants to.
I got quotes!
I think the problem is that what the rules say, while well-defined, is dumb.
Spell component pouches have all the components you need for material components that have no listed value in the spell entry. So... 1. an amount that your component pouch has enough for. 2. If you lose your pouch you go buy another one. Otherwise it doesn't need to be replenished.
You're free to homebrew whatever you like, as with all things, the DM makes the final call, even if that means disregarding the rules of the game.
I got quotes!
The lack of a stated cost does not mean zero cost, and the amount is consumed, which the rules say you must provide for each individual casting. That means at some point you will run out, component pouch or no. And because the components themselves are fairly rare (compared to most non-cost components anyway), it can't be guaranteed that you will be able to replenish as a point of "downtime", especially in a place without a temple or the means to powder the iron or silver. Yes, my cost is homebrew (and if you had read on, you'd find I'm willing to negotiate on the cost of each casting), but so is everyone elses, because the way the rule is written leaves out so much information its impossible to know what RAW is here.
Eh... Even if it was errata's and sage advice that isn't going to stop DMs from having the final say on what happens in their games. You are ALWAYS free to homebrew it whatever way you like.
Not everyone wants to force a nickle and dime style their player's inventory management. I think it is tedious and boring, personally. Games are for fun and keeping an excel spreadsheet for my character's inventory is the opposite of that. Actively un-fun.
But everyone finds joy in different places, and if micromanaging microscopic quantities of fictional holy waters is your thing, you are well within your rights as a DM to go for it.
I take exception to this. You can't just find the perfect forked twig just anywhere! You can settle for just any old 'mediocre' forked twig if you are fine with 'mediocre' spell performance. But for me? The perfect forked twig is worth the time investment to track down. Now if only I had the right material component for the spell to track one down!
I got quotes!
...
No, it doesn't mean that at all. You will never run out if you have a component pouch. You have whatever amount is needed.
The DM is free to create any homebrew restrictions they see fit. True.
RAW is pretty clear. Have pouch? Covered.
I got quotes!
Only if you freeze it
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have had experiences with DMs who seemed more interested in making life miserable for their players than anything else, and putting up unreasonable hurdles to casting first-level spells would be a red flag for me than I may have stumbled onto another one. If you're not one of those, glad to hear it.
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
First of all, if you have never DMed a party that had access to it then you have never DMed. Every Cleric and Warlock in the game has access to it starting at 1st-level, and every Paladin has access to it starting at 2nd-level. Even if the Warlock “never learned” it, every Cleric and Paladin has the choice to prepare the spell every morning.
Why would Summon Lesser Demons require any negotiation whatsoever? It needs no “negotiation,” the M component explicitly states how fresh the blood must be.
For someone who claims to “take a hard line” on this stuff, you sure do a whole lot of negotiating about stuff that’s plain as day. Like, the freshness of a required M component, or the omission of a value stated for the amount of another M component. It sounds more like I take the “hard line” approach: no specific value stated, none required; freshness stated, freshness required; no negotiations.
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I mean, that's it exactly. Groups and DMs have a range of options based on how "gritty" they want to make the game.
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Like, I’m one of those weirdos who thinks having to track rations and ammunition is fun. All of my PCs carry two waterskins because I’ve had PCs dehydrate to death. They all carry a tinderbox (unless they can do it by Cantrips) & bedroll and blanket because I’ve had PCs die from exposure. They carry string & whetstone to maintain their weapons. I’m the player who does specify clothes cleaning, and going to the bathroom, and even actually packs soap. (Yes, and my cheapskate PC makes his own with his Alchemist's Supplies.)
And I’m the one saying it’s too little holy water to track. 💦 👈 What’s that cost? Put it on my tab I guess…? 🤷♂️
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Some of the discussion is getting pretty off from RAW. Like fractions of a consumable.
If the component is supposed to be infinitely renewable why is it consumed? And why do components without a cost listed in the spell always have costs elsewhere in the rules?
If it is assumed that we can always refill a component pouch with as much of a component as we need passively, then does that mean we passively accumulate an infinite supply of holy water over time? Or an infinite length of rope (for snare)?
It is much easier to assume that this is one more of many poorly defined rules than it is to assume that adventurers passively collect an endless supply of precious metals from the ground.
And it being that this is a poorly written rule, it is up to your DMs to decide if the spells consume a costly component or don't consume a costly component. And there is nothing left to debate.
I’m not sure what all this talk about a spell which doesn’t consume its components is all about. Since its component is both not consumed and not explicitly valuable, it is not at all required and can be replaced by a pouch or focus, unlike the material component of a spell that consumes its component.
It is absolutely consumed, if you do the extra activity described in the spell to form the protective circle, which explicitly says consumes the material component.
Aside from the flavor it provides, making casting a spell look cool, components in general are meant to be restrictions on spell casting. You have to be able to do whatever is required. If the spell is Verbal only, you can stop their from casting if you can stop them from speaking somehow. It goes on like that. Material Components are mostly little jokes. To cast Fireball, you need a little ball shape that reminds the caster of fire. Bat guano smells like sulfur, so there you go. You use to have to keep track of how many balls of bat guano you had, but it's a nuisance to keep that stuff written down, erasing and rewriting, running out and having to go find somewhere to get more of the stuff.
By now, it's pretty much been solved by a "handwave mechanic", which is kind of a strange turn. A rule for ignoring the rules? Ok. Whatever. We've been talking mostly about the Component Pouch. You can pretty much ignore all components, it's assumed they are in there somewhere. That's fine as long as people don't abuse it. If you've cast a spell however many times and you haven't been anywhere near anyplace you might restock, you run out. The DM gets to decide how much is abusive.
The only time it really matters is when you've got a component that isn't easy to get, is consumed when the spell is cast, and somebody takes away your foci. That will slow down most classes that cast spells, not even a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell can cast spells that require material components, consumed or not. Druids at 2nd level or higher are really hard to keep restrained though, so if there's a Druid around, or any caster with two levels of Druid as a multi-class, a way will almost certainly be found to escape and get your foci back.
<Insert clever signature here>
If you would step back and assume that I can use language that might not be absolutely technically correct while having an intent that is fairly clear, what I meant was that no PC has ever learned it for their character (and I know this because I keep track of my player's abilities so I don't accidently throw them something only a certain spell can handle if they don't know it), and if they ever did prepare it, they never cast it.
I said I took a hard line (post #6) because another poster described a point of view I previously iterated (in post #3) as a hard line approach (my words in fact were "I guess I'm hardline...". I have never claimed to be hard line in most other things, and to think that you can extrapolate my entire personality/DM style from one statement is ludicrous. But that said where exactly in my statement on lesser demons did i capitulate to anything less than RAW for that spell? I agree the RAW is clear there and the negotiations were basically in how the player wanted to track stuff vs how I wanted to. The RAW absolutely is not clear for the treatment of material components in PFE&G.
I'm also not sure why I'm on trial here with a number of you. We disagree, it happens all the time, but a lot of you are basically saying I'm a bad DM for treating one spell out of 500 a little more harshly than you would. Kindly lay off the personal aspersions please.
See, that’s what I thought you meant the first time, which was why I said:
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