(though oddly enough I've never had a player cast that spell in 3+ years of DMing)
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free. Not having a casting cost and being consumed is kinda the opposite, yet equivalent of having a price listed but not being consumed. I stand corrected it is required, but the amount used is negligible. So, if ♾ is “unacceptable,” then (♾➖1️⃣). Or an amount > (#️⃣➕1️⃣) where #️⃣ = the number of times they cast the spell.
What I meant by that was "I've never had to enact that ruling before because no one has ever cast or even had access to that spell in one of my games" I'm entirely theoretical here. IRL if I made the ruling and someone questioned it, I'd probably be up to negotiate the first time and hold to it for later castings (which is my usual MO for spells with wonky components/effects)
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
I did, however, require a player with summon lesser demons to specifically tell me when they harvested the blood required for that spell, so we could track how old it was due to its rule for consumed components. We negotiated when they gained the spell and they had absolutely no problem with that, and used the spell quite a bit going forward (provided they had the blood)
First of all, if you have never DMed a party that had access to it then you have never DMed. Every Cleric and Warlock in the game has access to it starting at 1st-level, and every Paladin has access to it starting at 2nd-level. Even if the Warlock “never learned” it, every Cleric and Paladin has the choice to prepare the spell every morning.
If you would step back and assume that I can use language that might not be absolutely technically correct while having an intent that is fairly clear, what I meant was that no PC has ever learned it for their character (and I know this because I keep track of my player's abilities so I don't accidently throw them something only a certain spell can handle if they don't know it), and if they ever did prepare it, they never cast it.
See, that’s what I thought you meant the first time, which was why I said:
That’s probably because you charge 25 gp for a spell that should be effectively free.
And they don't know that, because we've never run into a situation where I've had to tell them that., which is why I said:
I don't run through every permutation of ruling in existence for spells players may or may not have in session zero.
So nothing other than their own choices are driving the fact that none of them use the spell, not any ruling I might theoretically make on it. For the record, this whole conversation doesn't feel like the "spirited, friendly debate" you claim in your tag.
RAW if the materials are consumed, you need to actually have them, not just use a component pouch or focus. Summon Lesser Demons is actually a great example because as iconarising already pointed out, it requires and consumes fresh blood if you want to protect yourself. A focus is obviously not a substitute there.
There's also Snare which consumes 25 feet of rope but doesn't care what kind of rope it is. If you use hempen rope the spell is costing you 5 sp, but if you use silk rope it's costing you 5 gp. The component is also clearly mandatory here despite not having a price mandated in the spell since it's used to create a 5 foot diameter circle.
On the subject of quantity, since there's no clear-cut RAW answer I'll just give a bit of the spell's history to help others make up their mind. In 2e wizards cast the spell by tracing a 3-foot-diameter circle around the target with powdered silver while the cleric version "uses holy water or incense to complete the spell". While that's not very clear it was most likely intended to be used the same way as the wizard version, since the stronger version of the spell requires both classes to create 20-foot-diameter circles out of the same materials. So the amounts involved weren't negligible.
Then 3rd edition made things a bit weird by keeping the powdered silver circle for arcane casters, but basically letting you hand-wave it due to not having a cost similar to 5e, and using a divine focus instead of holy water for divine casters ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also worth noting that the 5e version is stronger in my opinion, since it grants disadvantage while the 2e and 3.5e versions granted +2 AC, and it's no longer alignment-specific. It's basically a stronger version of Shield of Faith (EDIT: and equivalent to Blur, which is 2nd level) when it's relevant. For this reason and because of the spell's history of basically being a smaller version of Magic Circle, I treat it as costing 25 gp worth of powdered silver or holy water in my own games.
RAW if the materials are consumed, you need to actually have them, not just use a component pouch or focus. Summon Lesser Demons is actually a great example because as iconarising already pointed it, it requires and consumes fresh blood if you want to protect yourself. A focus is obviously not a substitute there.
There's also Snare which consumes 25 feet of rope but doesn't care what kind of rope it is. If you use hempen rope the spell is costing you 5 sp, but if you use silk rope it's costing you 5 gp. The component is also clearly mandatory here despite not having a price mandated in the spell since it's used to create a 5 foot diameter circle.
On the subject of quantity, since there's no clear-cut RAW answer I'll just give a bit of the spell's history to help others make up their mind. In 2e wizards cast the spell by tracing a 3-foot-diameter circle around the target (which isn't a negligible amount) while the cleric version "uses holy water or incense to complete the spell". While that's not very clear it was most likely intended to be used the same way as the wizard version, since the stronger version of the spell requires both classes to create 20-foot-diameter circles out of the same materials. So the amounts involved weren't negligible.
Then 3rd edition made things a bit weird by keeping the powdered silver circle for arcane casters, but basically letting you hand-wave it due to not having a cost similar to 5e, and using a divine focus instead of holy water for divine casters ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also worth noting that the 5e version is stronger in my opinion, since it grants disadvantage while the 2e and 3.5e versions granted +2 AC, and it's no longer alignment-specific. It's basically a stronger version of Shield of Faith when it's relevant. For this reason and because of the spell's history of basically being a smaller version of Magic Circle, I treat it as costing 25 gp worth of powdered silver or holy water in my own games.
My counter-argument would be that it seems to be the only spell in the book with a consumable component that does not have a listed cost or quantity. If it was supposed to have a meaningful number attached to either, the way Snare does, that number would be listed, whether it was in a monetary value or an amount (i.e. one vial).
Depending on the campaign, at lower levels 25 gp can be a significant amount of money. Other first-level spells with costly components, like Chromatic Orb, tell you up front whether or not it's in your budget. It makes absolutely no sense to me that the components for a first-level spell would have that kind of price tag but not explicitly say so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Why, exactly, is it obvious that a focus is not a substitute for fresh blood? There is no description anywhere as to what the process of making foci is like.
The spell is 100% clear that you need to draw a circle around yourself with that blood if you want to be protected from your summon. Hence why it's explicit about consuming the component, which then obliges the caster to "provide this component for each casting."
Regardless, the rule on components says "if a cost is indicated" It does NOT say 'If the component has a cost.'
That's not the rule that's relevant here, though. It's the bit that says if a component is consumed, you have to provide it for each casting. And the only reason to even bother doing that with the rules is to give some non-negligible cost to each casting the spell. The cost doesn't always have to be monetary, as Summon Lesser Demons demonstrates - that one mainly requires you to commit morally questionable acts to obtain the material. From a narrative perspective the materials a component pouch can substitute for also get consumed, but they're cheap and easy enough to get that it's assumed you're refilling your pouch as part of your downtime costs, along with sharpening swords, doing laundry and taking a bath.
I am still waiting for the spell that requires a component pouch, which it consumes. Such a dirty trick.
(quickly homebrews a Summon Mimic spell)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You hurl your component pouch at a point within range while magically infusing the bag to emit an explosion of spell effects that destroys the pouch used in it’s casting. Roll a D10 three times, casting the appropriate spell effect from the table below (rerolling repeated results). Each effect takes place sequentially in the order rolled.
Each spell effect uses your spell save DC, with saves relevant to the spell in question (listed on the table). The point of origin for an Area of Effect generated by this spell is the location the pouch lands. If a spell effect requires a direction to be specified (for example, the direction of a line or cone AoE), you decide the direction it emits. If a spell effect requires you to choose one or more creatures within range, the ranges point of origin is the location the pouch lands. Spell effects with a Duration last for the duration indicated for the spell effect. Spells effects that require concentration require your concentration, but you can concentrate on multiple effects generated by this spell at once. If your concentration ends, all spell effects requiring concentration end.
A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
Thus, you are using the component pouch in place of the components. But that means your component for the spell is the component pouch, and the component for the spell is defined as being consumed.
I found another in-depth discussion of this very question here. If you want to make the case that the rules are contradictory, then you may have a leg to stand on, even though I think the rule is pretty clear. But the conclusion you come up with (consuming the component pouch itself) is not supported by RAW or RAI that I can see.
I found another in-depth discussion of this very question here. If you want to make the case that the rules are contradictory, then you may have a leg to stand on, even though I think the rule is pretty clear. But the conclusion you come up with (consuming the component pouch itself) is not supported by RAW or RAI that I can see.
I'm confident that RAI is that you need to actually provide the component even though it has no listed cost, but RAW doesn't say that.
Why, exactly, is it obvious that a focus is not a substitute for fresh blood? There is no description anywhere as to what the process of making foci is like.
The spell is 100% clear that you need to draw a circle around yourself with that blood if you want to be protected from your summon. Hence why it's explicit about consuming the component, which then obliges the caster to "provide this component for each casting."
Regardless, the rule on components says "if a cost is indicated" It does NOT say 'If the component has a cost.'
That's not the rule that's relevant here, though. It's the bit that says if a component is consumed, you have to provide it for each casting. And the only reason to even bother doing that with the rules is to give some non-negligible cost to each casting the spell. The cost doesn't always have to be monetary, as Summon Lesser Demons demonstrates - that one mainly requires you to commit morally questionable acts to obtain the material. From a narrative perspective the materials a component pouch can substitute for also get consumed, but they're cheap and easy enough to get that it's assumed you're refilling your pouch as part of your downtime costs, along with sharpening swords, doing laundry and taking a bath.
If you want to be protected, yes. However you are not obligated to do so. You may be suicidal for some reason. Or you may have summoned them to practice your new anti demon fighting style.
Narrative is not RAW.
Edit: If a component is consumed, you need to provide it with each casting, however you can use the pouch or focus as a substitute for the component and thus for that need, as long as there is no indicated cost. Seems pretty clear to most.
Absolutely not. The consumed component for summon lesser demons has an expiration date. I don't know any DM on this planet who would assume a PC in normal circumstances is just casually murdering someone once a day to fill their pouch with the required component during "downtime" (the blood must be from a slain humanoid within the last 24 hours, so pricking their finger won't work). I would, at best, allow this to be cast from a focus (but not a pouch) without actually having the component in question, but this spell cast from a focus would never be able to make the circle to protect themselves since that would consume a component they wouldn't have.
Anyone else just want to agree that the rules aren't really clear on this subject and to just go with whatever their DM says?
Because I feel like everything worth being said was said a while ago and now people are just arguing with tangential hypotheticals...
Because this is the Rules and Mechanics section and therefore we are, in theory, discussing what RAW is, rather than what our homebrew ideas on the subject are.
Some of the discussion is getting pretty off from RAW. Like fractions of a consumable.
If the component is supposed to be infinitely renewable why is it consumed? And why do components without a cost listed in the spell always have costs elsewhere in the rules?
If it is assumed that we can always refill a component pouch with as much of a component as we need passively, then does that mean we passively accumulate an infinite supply of holy water over time? Or an infinite length of rope (for snare)?
It is much easier to assume that this is one more of many poorly defined rules than it is to assume that adventurers passively collect an endless supply of precious metals from the ground.
And it being that this is a poorly written rule, it is up to your DMs to decide if the spells consume a costly component or don't consume a costly component. And there is nothing left to debate.
You fundamentally do not understand the entire purpose of the component pouch or the foci. They exist to eliminate the need to track this garbage that would otherwise clutter up your inventory sheet and require tracking, time, mental energy, that some people just. Do. Not. Find. Fun.
If you don't want to entirely skip component tracking, just eliminate the component pouch or foci from your game, or choose not to equip your character with one and track how many uses of cricket legs you got in your pocket.
But, by RAW, the pouch/foci eliminates the need to get this granular. Does it makes sense when you try to analyze it from a granular tracking perspective??? Of course not. It is a hand-wave device whose entire purpose is to not look at it this granularly.
If you want to be protected, yes. However you are not obligated to do so. You may be suicidal for some reason. Or you may have summoned them to practice your new anti demon fighting style.
Narrative is not RAW.
Edit: If a component is consumed, you need to provide it with each casting, however you can use the pouch or focus as a substitute for the component and thus for that need, as long as there is no indicated cost. Seems pretty clear to most.
Absolutely not. The consumed component for summon lesser demons has an expiration date. I don't know any DM on this planet who would assume a PC in normal circumstances is just casually murdering someone once a day to fill their pouch with the required component during "downtime" (the blood must be from a slain humanoid within the last 24 hours, so pricking their finger won't work). I would, at best, allow this to be cast from a focus (but not a pouch) without actually having the component in question, but this spell cast from a focus would never be able to make the circle to protect themselves since that would consume a component they wouldn't have.
I don't track this in my game. I give 0 care to tracking non-cost listed materials if the players have a pouch or foci. The whole point is so we spend game time focused on interesting things instead of focused on inventory management. I do not even let the thought cross my mind when they're casting spells if "they have the components" it is a waste of mental energy.
The M component for summon lesser demons is not consumed at all. There is no consumed component, nor is there a specified value, so it can totally be replaced with either a pouch or a focus.
And they don't know that, because we've never run into a situation where I've had to tell them that., which is why I said:
So nothing other than their own choices are driving the fact that none of them use the spell, not any ruling I might theoretically make on it. For the record, this whole conversation doesn't feel like the "spirited, friendly debate" you claim in your tag.
RAW if the materials are consumed, you need to actually have them, not just use a component pouch or focus. Summon Lesser Demons is actually a great example because as iconarising already pointed out, it requires and consumes fresh blood if you want to protect yourself. A focus is obviously not a substitute there.
There's also Snare which consumes 25 feet of rope but doesn't care what kind of rope it is. If you use hempen rope the spell is costing you 5 sp, but if you use silk rope it's costing you 5 gp. The component is also clearly mandatory here despite not having a price mandated in the spell since it's used to create a 5 foot diameter circle.
On the subject of quantity, since there's no clear-cut RAW answer I'll just give a bit of the spell's history to help others make up their mind. In 2e wizards cast the spell by tracing a 3-foot-diameter circle around the target with powdered silver while the cleric version "uses holy water or incense to complete the spell". While that's not very clear it was most likely intended to be used the same way as the wizard version, since the stronger version of the spell requires both classes to create 20-foot-diameter circles out of the same materials. So the amounts involved weren't negligible.
Then 3rd edition made things a bit weird by keeping the powdered silver circle for arcane casters, but basically letting you hand-wave it due to not having a cost similar to 5e, and using a divine focus instead of holy water for divine casters ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also worth noting that the 5e version is stronger in my opinion, since it grants disadvantage while the 2e and 3.5e versions granted +2 AC, and it's no longer alignment-specific. It's basically a stronger version of Shield of Faith (EDIT: and equivalent to Blur, which is 2nd level) when it's relevant. For this reason and because of the spell's history of basically being a smaller version of Magic Circle, I treat it as costing 25 gp worth of powdered silver or holy water in my own games.
My counter-argument would be that it seems to be the only spell in the book with a consumable component that does not have a listed cost or quantity. If it was supposed to have a meaningful number attached to either, the way Snare does, that number would be listed, whether it was in a monetary value or an amount (i.e. one vial).
Depending on the campaign, at lower levels 25 gp can be a significant amount of money. Other first-level spells with costly components, like Chromatic Orb, tell you up front whether or not it's in your budget. It makes absolutely no sense to me that the components for a first-level spell would have that kind of price tag but not explicitly say so.
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell is 100% clear that you need to draw a circle around yourself with that blood if you want to be protected from your summon. Hence why it's explicit about consuming the component, which then obliges the caster to "provide this component for each casting."
That's not the rule that's relevant here, though. It's the bit that says if a component is consumed, you have to provide it for each casting. And the only reason to even bother doing that with the rules is to give some non-negligible cost to each casting the spell. The cost doesn't always have to be monetary, as Summon Lesser Demons demonstrates - that one mainly requires you to commit morally questionable acts to obtain the material. From a narrative perspective the materials a component pouch can substitute for also get consumed, but they're cheap and easy enough to get that it's assumed you're refilling your pouch as part of your downtime costs, along with sharpening swords, doing laundry and taking a bath.
I am still waiting for the spell that requires a component pouch, which it consumes. Such a dirty trick.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
(quickly homebrews a Summon Mimic spell)
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Okay, I think you won :)
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How about this one?
Metronome (named after the famous move in Pokemon)
Evocation Spell 8 level Range 60 feet
Casting Time: 1 Action Components: V, S, M* Save: Multiple
Damage/Effect: Special Duration: Special
You hurl your component pouch at a point within range while magically infusing the bag to emit an explosion of spell effects that destroys the pouch used in it’s casting. Roll a D10 three times, casting the appropriate spell effect from the table below (rerolling repeated results). Each effect takes place sequentially in the order rolled.
Each spell effect uses your spell save DC, with saves relevant to the spell in question (listed on the table). The point of origin for an Area of Effect generated by this spell is the location the pouch lands. If a spell effect requires a direction to be specified (for example, the direction of a line or cone AoE), you decide the direction it emits. If a spell effect requires you to choose one or more creatures within range, the ranges point of origin is the location the pouch lands. Spell effects with a Duration last for the duration indicated for the spell effect. Spells effects that require concentration require your concentration, but you can concentrate on multiple effects generated by this spell at once. If your concentration ends, all spell effects requiring concentration end.
D10
Spell Effect
Level of Spell Effect
Save Type
1
fireball
5th
DEX
2
web
2nd
WIS
3
lightning bolt
5th
DEX
4
fear
3rd
WIS
5
erupting earth
5th
DEX
6
shatter
5th
CON
7
vitriolic sphere
5th
DEX
8
slow
3rd
WIS
9
cone of cold
5th
CON
10
polymorph
4th
WIS
At Higher levels: Casting this spell at 9 level will allow you to roll on the table 4 times instead of 3.
*A component pouch worth 25gp
As written, any spell with a consumable but no listed cost component, if cast with a component pouch, consumes the pouch. Probably not RAI but is RAW.
As written where?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Thus, you are using the component pouch in place of the components. But that means your component for the spell is the component pouch, and the component for the spell is defined as being consumed.
That is not a convincing argument.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I found another in-depth discussion of this very question here. If you want to make the case that the rules are contradictory, then you may have a leg to stand on, even though I think the rule is pretty clear. But the conclusion you come up with (consuming the component pouch itself) is not supported by RAW or RAI that I can see.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Of course it is, the implication of the post I responded to was that one does not currently exist. I made one for fun and wanted to share it.
I'm confident that RAI is that you need to actually provide the component even though it has no listed cost, but RAW doesn't say that.
Absolutely not. The consumed component for summon lesser demons has an expiration date. I don't know any DM on this planet who would assume a PC in normal circumstances is just casually murdering someone once a day to fill their pouch with the required component during "downtime" (the blood must be from a slain humanoid within the last 24 hours, so pricking their finger won't work). I would, at best, allow this to be cast from a focus (but not a pouch) without actually having the component in question, but this spell cast from a focus would never be able to make the circle to protect themselves since that would consume a component they wouldn't have.
You fundamentally do not understand the entire purpose of the component pouch or the foci. They exist to eliminate the need to track this garbage that would otherwise clutter up your inventory sheet and require tracking, time, mental energy, that some people just. Do. Not. Find. Fun.
If you don't want to entirely skip component tracking, just eliminate the component pouch or foci from your game, or choose not to equip your character with one and track how many uses of cricket legs you got in your pocket.
But, by RAW, the pouch/foci eliminates the need to get this granular. Does it makes sense when you try to analyze it from a granular tracking perspective??? Of course not. It is a hand-wave device whose entire purpose is to not look at it this granularly.
I got quotes!
I don't track this in my game. I give 0 care to tracking non-cost listed materials if the players have a pouch or foci. The whole point is so we spend game time focused on interesting things instead of focused on inventory management. I do not even let the thought cross my mind when they're casting spells if "they have the components" it is a waste of mental energy.
Now you know one. I bet there are others.
I got quotes!
The M component for summon lesser demons is not consumed at all. There is no consumed component, nor is there a specified value, so it can totally be replaced with either a pouch or a focus.
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It doesn't?
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component (PHB p.203)
"Not all those who wander are lost"