I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Agreed, the spell says the target can move by pushing or pulling, not something can push or pull them.
It doesn't say something can't push or pull them either. It's silent on the issue, which means pushing and pulling them works exactly the way it would normally work.
Devils advocate… thresholds for first targeting a spell or effect don’t always continue to limit the spell once it’s in effect. Creatures within range can leave range while an effect remains active on them, or go from seen to unseen… there’s an interesting debate on if they arguably can even change creature types (wild shape or polymorph) without breaking “target humanoid” spells that are already on them.
5E doesn’t explicitly have a step in combat to re-check spell effect criteria after its already in place, and spells commonly include their own language to accomplish that if necessary, telling you that if X happens the spell or effect ends.
Would I let a mage hand lift a 5 lb stone, but then let characters climb it? No. But it’s an idea that has some similarities to how other spell effects are treated…
The spell isn't targeting an object, it is creating a hand.
The rules/limitations for what the hand can or can't do apply for the full duration of the spell.
I'm more interested in what happens after it has moved a total of 30 ft during the life of the spell - does the spell end, or does the hand remain stationary until the duration expires or you move more than 30 ft from the hand?
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Agreed, the spell says the target can move by pushing or pulling, not something can push or pull them.
It doesn't say something can't push or pull them either. It's silent on the issue, which means pushing and pulling them works exactly the way it would normally work.
Which is one of my points. Mage hand can't normally push a creature and levitate didn't change that.
mage hand only works on objects, so it can't be used to push a levitating creature.
Like many spells, mage hand lists what it can do. Unlike most spells, it also lists what it cannot do. If the thing you are trying to do is in neither of those lists, you have to infer the capability from other places.
As an aside, to say it only works on objects means you can't use it to tap someone on the shoulder, and that's a shame.
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
But does tapping on your friend's shoulder count as an attack? There is no roll to hit, no damage or harmful effect.
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
You do 14 points of friendship damage
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
You do 14 points of friendship damage
Care Bear subclass.
If you take a level dip into pony your friendship attacks count as magical.
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome Player: I hug the innkeeper DM: Make an attack roll
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
You do 14 points of friendship damage
Care Bear subclass.
If you take a level dip into pony your friendship attacks count as magical.
First my apologies if someone covered this on pages 2-4 I wasn’t wading thru all those posts when the question still seems to be somewhat up in the air (pun intended).
can mage hand push a levitated character? No - the real problem a lot of folks seem to be having is the difference between weight and mass, and this would be true in most d&d worlds as well. Newton didn’t separate them for us until 1687 so here goes: mass- measured in kilograms= the amount of matter present in an object (yes the total number of protons, neutrons,etc)this doesn’t typically change. Weight = the force applied to an object (to make it accelerate at a given rate (for Earth gravity 9.8 m/s/s or 32’/s/s).
Mage hand says 10 pounds but it means the equivalent in mass not force so 10#/2.2#/kg = 4.4 kg of mass if the object has more mass than that mage hand can’t move it and a person, even a very small gnome/kobold has more mass than that. similarly levitate doesn’t make you weightless if it did you would just float there. It applies an upward force of up to 1000 pounds ( up to 500 to counter gravity and an additional 500 to actually lift the subject. The maximum height is 20’ and the force is applied until time runs out or you stop concentrating at which point it fades away slowly letting the subject drift down gently not falling suddenly taking falling damage. Because the force is holding the subject up it has no real way to move except to push/pull itself along with objects it can reach like a wall or tree branches. In theory a strong enough wind could move the subject Gust of wind could move the subject but not the full 15 ft as it is working at an angle ( it projects from you and you are on the ground) similarly you can’t use it on yourself since it projects away from you not at you. Other spells that can grasp and push you would work as well. Of course if your using Bigbys hand why are you bothering with the levitate? Just gently grasp your teammate and lift him up as high as you need and move him wherever you need inside that 120’ bubble it gives you.
It doesn't say something can't push or pull them either. It's silent on the issue, which means pushing and pulling them works exactly the way it would normally work.
The spell isn't targeting an object, it is creating a hand.
The rules/limitations for what the hand can or can't do apply for the full duration of the spell.
I'm more interested in what happens after it has moved a total of 30 ft during the life of the spell - does the spell end, or does the hand remain stationary until the duration expires or you move more than 30 ft from the hand?
Which is one of my points. Mage hand can't normally push a creature and levitate didn't change that.
Why would it only be able to move 30 once? I don’t see it
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Like many spells, mage hand lists what it can do. Unlike most spells, it also lists what it cannot do. If the thing you are trying to do is in neither of those lists, you have to infer the capability from other places.
As an aside, to say it only works on objects means you can't use it to tap someone on the shoulder, and that's a shame.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would also think the "manipulate and object" is vague enough the allow for all manner of things that aren't otherwise listed in the spell, so it could pick up a pencil or twig and tap a friend on the shoulder right?
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
(puts on rules stickler fedora) You cannot make an attack with mage hand
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But does tapping on your friend's shoulder count as an attack? There is no roll to hit, no damage or harmful effect.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
No attack roll means no attack, so you're good to tap away :)
EDIT: You return to the village after many weeks. The grateful innkeeper greets you warmly and opens his arms in welcome
Player: I hug the innkeeper
DM: Make an attack roll
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The barbarian: oh I'm going to reckless for advantage. Nat 20.
You do 14 points of friendship damage
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Care Bear subclass.
If you take a level dip into pony your friendship attacks count as magical.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Oh, good build.
Maybe, late night reading of the line "You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it." :-)
Does the phrase "each time you use it" refer to the spell or the hand summoned by the spell?
Would that be the same interpretation that it can pour out the contents of a single vial when summoned, then just hang around useless for a minute? :p
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
First my apologies if someone covered this on pages 2-4 I wasn’t wading thru all those posts when the question still seems to be somewhat up in the air (pun intended).
can mage hand push a levitated character? No - the real problem a lot of folks seem to be having is the difference between weight and mass, and this would be true in most d&d worlds as well. Newton didn’t separate them for us until 1687 so here goes: mass- measured in kilograms= the amount of matter present in an object (yes the total number of protons, neutrons,etc)this doesn’t typically change. Weight = the force applied to an object (to make it accelerate at a given rate (for Earth gravity 9.8 m/s/s or 32’/s/s).
Mage hand says 10 pounds but it means the equivalent in mass not force so 10#/2.2#/kg = 4.4 kg of mass if the object has more mass than that mage hand can’t move it and a person, even a very small gnome/kobold has more mass than that.
similarly levitate doesn’t make you weightless if it did you would just float there. It applies an upward force of up to 1000 pounds ( up to 500 to counter gravity and an additional 500 to actually lift the subject. The maximum height is 20’ and the force is applied until time runs out or you stop concentrating at which point it fades away slowly letting the subject drift down gently not falling suddenly taking falling damage. Because the force is holding the subject up it has no real way to move except to push/pull itself along with objects it can reach like a wall or tree branches. In theory a strong enough wind could move the subject Gust of wind could move the subject but not the full 15 ft as it is working at an angle ( it projects from you and you are on the ground) similarly you can’t use it on yourself since it projects away from you not at you. Other spells that can grasp and push you would work as well. Of course if your using Bigbys hand why are you bothering with the levitate? Just gently grasp your teammate and lift him up as high as you need and move him wherever you need inside that 120’ bubble it gives you.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
We have a solution that works for us. Thank you.
Our table decided that Levitate makes you effectively weightless.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
If it works for you fine it’s your fantasy after all
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, that sounds more fun than the strict reading of the RAW.