Mage Hand can't attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.
By RAW, I would say no, unless the creature was no more than 10 pounds. Even though real world physics would allow for the Mage Hand to apply a constant force, that doesn't translate well into game mechanics, and against a hostile creature, it would be considered an attack.
At my personal table, I would probably let it grant very, very slow movement, if it was being used creatively.
I typically see Levitate being interpreted as the suspended creature being considered weightless. All the talk of moving them by pushing against fixed objects certainly conjures images of moving in space. If a creature needed to exert typical force to move itself that way, I'd expect the spell to make some mention of pushing/pulling the creature still using grapple drag rules, or requiring a strength check, or something.
TLDR, yeah, using Mage Hand to drag a Levitating creature is a classic interaction which seems RAI.
Levitate explicitly states that moving by pushing/pulling functions according to climbing rules. That typically means moving at half speed. If the target were properly "weightless"/"massless", they should be able to move faster than normal, not slower.
RAW you can push/drag/lift up to twice your carrying capacity, which in this case is Mage Hand's 10 pounds. So unless the levitated creature weighs 20 pounds or less, the mage hand cannot move it.
There is nothing in the Levitate spell that suggests that the target is weightless. If it was, the target wouldn't need to push/pull against a fixed object/surface (any object/surface would do).
My read of it brings me to No. Only mention of weight is the cap on how much can be affected.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'm with No gang on this one. Levitate works more like a lifting force than weight reduction.
Lifting force is weight reduction. Weight is how much down-force you exert. If you exert 0 down-force, you are by definition weightless. Note that a weightless creature would need to move using the climb rules, as listed in the spell, because it still has mass, and has to overcome its own inertia. Astronauts clambering about on the ISS have to exert muscle effort to move, it's just a very different way of moving.
If Levitate makes you weightless, here's the math on it:
Assuming standard gravity, a 200 pound creature masses 90.7185 kg, and mage hand seems to be able to exert 44.4822 newtons. That means you can accelerate a previously 200 pound target at 0.490332181 m / s^2 . 6 seconds of that is 8.825979258 meters, which is nearly 29 feet. If levitated targets can be moved, mage hand should be able to move them 29 feet (rounding), 28 feet (rounding down, as usual in 5E), or 25 feet (rounding down to nearest grid distance). Distance would be less for a 500 pound creature (linearly - divide the distance by 2.5, so 11.58 feet). The reason for the big if is that Levitate says "The target can move only by [...]". It's an entirely valid way to read the spell to assume that Levitate makes you immune to forced movement effects other than Levitate while it's on you - that is, it certainly says that the only way the target can move is how the spell says it can move. Levitate might make the target immune to being moved by a grappler, by a swarmkeeper, by telekinesis, etc etc. If that's the case, it certainly also renders the target immune to Mage Hand.
Now, the thing is, Levitate doesn't actually say it makes you weightless. For example, it could literally lift you up telekinetically, so you're hanging in a telekinetic harness, basically. Then, when you try to move yourself with the climbing rules, what you're doing is fighting the harness. That doesn't match the word Levitate, but many many many spells disobey their own name. Grease summons lubricant, not grease (actual grease is flammable), and Chill Touch isn't chilly. We can't conclude from the spell name that Levitate actually levitates. On top of the issue I raised above about the spell potentially excluding all other methods of movement, Levitate has no text letting the wind move you. That's pretty damning. If you were genuinely weightless and floating in the air, wind could easily move you just as mage hand can, and the spell doesn't mention that.
tl;dr Levitate seems to stop all external forces other than Levitate from moving you, so you seem to be immune to both strong winds and mage hand. If your DM rules instead that the spell renders you weightless, both wind and mage hand can move you.
It came up as a way to get a character across a ravine. As the DM I let it work as it seemed like a creative work around for the problem, but thought I would come here to see what other thought.
It came up as a way to get a character across a ravine. As the DM I let it work as it seemed like a creative work around for the problem, but thought I would come here to see what other thought.
Tie string to an arrow, shoot the opposite wall of the ravine.
Do this a lot. Math below says 100 times should be good.
"Climb" the strings. Each string should only have to bear a fraction of the necessary force. If it takes 200 pounds to "move" you - and it probably takes much less - two strings bear 100 pounds each, and 4 strings bear 50 pounds each. I just googled up an instance of modern cotton twine with a working load of 3 pounds, which means 100 strings should suffice.
If the arrows tug loose or the twine breaks, you don't fall, so just shoot more arrows.
It came up as a way to get a character across a ravine. As the DM I let it work as it seemed like a creative work around for the problem, but thought I would come here to see what other thought.
Tie string to an arrow, shoot the opposite wall of the ravine.
Do this a lot. Math below says 100 times should be good.
"Climb" the strings. Each string should only have to bear a fraction of the necessary force. If it takes 200 pounds to "move" you - and it probably takes much less - two strings bear 100 pounds each, and 4 strings bear 50 pounds each. I just googled up an instance of modern cotton twine with a working load of 3 pounds, which means 100 strings should suffice.
If the arrows tug loose or the twine breaks, you don't fall, so just shoot more arrows.
As an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, I think the levitation tricks seemed more thematic plus they didn't have a bow or string. Interesting idea though.
I'm with No gang on this one. Levitate works more like a lifting force than weight reduction.
Lifting force is weight reduction. Weight is how much down-force you exert. If you exert 0 down-force, you are by definition weightless. Note that a weightless creature would need to move using the climb rules, as listed in the spell, because it still has mass, and has to overcome its own inertia. Astronauts clambering about on the ISS have to exert muscle effort to move, it's just a very different way of moving.
If Levitate makes you weightless, here's the math on it:
Assuming standard gravity, a 200 pound creature masses 90.7185 kg, and mage hand seems to be able to exert 44.4822 newtons. That means you can accelerate a previously 200 pound target at 0.490332181 m / s^2 . 6 seconds of that is 8.825979258 meters, which is nearly 29 feet. If levitated targets can be moved, mage hand should be able to move them 29 feet (rounding), 28 feet (rounding down, as usual in 5E), or 25 feet (rounding down to nearest grid distance). Distance would be less for a 500 pound creature (linearly - divide the distance by 2.5, so 11.58 feet). The reason for the big if is that Levitate says "The target can move only by [...]". It's an entirely valid way to read the spell to assume that Levitate makes you immune to forced movement effects other than Levitate while it's on you - that is, it certainly says that the only way the target can move is how the spell says it can move. Levitate might make the target immune to being moved by a grappler, by a swarmkeeper, by telekinesis, etc etc. If that's the case, it certainly also renders the target immune to Mage Hand.
Now, the thing is, Levitate doesn't actually say it makes you weightless. For example, it could literally lift you up telekinetically, so you're hanging in a telekinetic harness, basically. Then, when you try to move yourself with the climbing rules, what you're doing is fighting the harness. That doesn't match the word Levitate, but many many many spells disobey their own name. Grease summons lubricant, not grease (actual grease is flammable), and Chill Touch isn't chilly. We can't conclude from the spell name that Levitate actually levitates. On top of the issue I raised above about the spell potentially excluding all other methods of movement, Levitate has no text letting the wind move you. That's pretty damning. If you were genuinely weightless and floating in the air, wind could easily move you just as mage hand can, and the spell doesn't mention that.
tl;dr Levitate seems to stop all external forces other than Levitate from moving you, so you seem to be immune to both strong winds and mage hand. If your DM rules instead that the spell renders you weightless, both wind and mage hand can move you.
So what about the Gust cantrip? It should be able to at the very least push them 5 feet as they would have no way of succeeding on a Str saving throw if they are not right beside a wall (having nothing to grab onto/stand against). In 30 seconds, you could move them 25 feet.
I'm with No gang on this one. Levitate works more like a lifting force than weight reduction.
Lifting force is weight reduction. Weight is how much down-force you exert. If you exert 0 down-force, you are by definition weightless. Note that a weightless creature would need to move using the climb rules, as listed in the spell, because it still has mass, and has to overcome its own inertia. Astronauts clambering about on the ISS have to exert muscle effort to move, it's just a very different way of moving.
If Levitate makes you weightless, here's the math on it:
Assuming standard gravity, a 200 pound creature masses 90.7185 kg, and mage hand seems to be able to exert 44.4822 newtons. That means you can accelerate a previously 200 pound target at 0.490332181 m / s^2 . 6 seconds of that is 8.825979258 meters, which is nearly 29 feet. If levitated targets can be moved, mage hand should be able to move them 29 feet (rounding), 28 feet (rounding down, as usual in 5E), or 25 feet (rounding down to nearest grid distance). Distance would be less for a 500 pound creature (linearly - divide the distance by 2.5, so 11.58 feet). The reason for the big if is that Levitate says "The target can move only by [...]". It's an entirely valid way to read the spell to assume that Levitate makes you immune to forced movement effects other than Levitate while it's on you - that is, it certainly says that the only way the target can move is how the spell says it can move. Levitate might make the target immune to being moved by a grappler, by a swarmkeeper, by telekinesis, etc etc. If that's the case, it certainly also renders the target immune to Mage Hand.
I have a problem with this style of mathematical analysis that assumes a creature’s weight (that you made up only to the nearest 100 lbs) to the nearest tenth of a gram. How you report numbers is important, and this whole analysis reports them ridiculously precisely for a game that rounds things to rounds, minutes, or hours and generally works in 5’ distance increments.
So what about the Gust cantrip? It should be able to at the very least push them 5 feet as they would have no way of succeeding on a Str saving throw if they are not right beside a wall (having nothing to grab onto/stand against). In 30 seconds, you could move them 25 feet.
I would rule that situationally, they could not make the strength save to avoid being moved by the gust.
I will admit, I have always pictured it as weightlessness as in space, but Quin's description of an invisible force gripping them in mid-air and locking them in position is just as possible under the spell description. I've often seen Levitate used to drag things with a rope easily, but I suppose RAW there's a good argument for going the other way.
Wouldn't the physics regarding buoyancy be more applicable in the case of Levitation?
Either way, I just thought it was an interesting way to deal with an environmental hazard and let it go. If they were to try to use it in combat, it wouldn't be a very effective form of movement since Mage hand requires an action to use so I am not too worried about the ramifications for now.
If it were a matter of buoyancy, the target would have difficulty staying upright, and have to deal with "swimming" in air. However, the game was never designed to get that granular, so you are perfectly within your right as a DM to put whatever flair you want on the spell.
It's an intuitive and creative solution to a common problem. The only issue with it is the ability to "Fly" at a significantly lower level than normal. As long as it comes with stiff downsides, like very slow movement, then it will present plenty of opportunities for fun drama.
Eh, I see a difference between "carrying" and "pushing", from a logical perspective anyway. While levitating does not make a creature weightless, the presence or lack of any resistance behind the creature determines how easily it is able to be moved (further, the limitations on movement given in the spell are against the target, not outside forces). If the creature is fully untethered/unconnected to anything, the only resistance is that of the air, which 10 pounds of force would be able to overcome easily. I'd allow mage hand to work here, and call it a clever use of the spells to solve the problem.
I'd also allow the gust cantrip to move them (given that the STR save should logically be assumed to be made while you are connected to something to push against the wind, like the ground, so situationally you should not be able to make it)
I'd also allow one string shot from an arrow and the levitating creature pulling themselves along it to work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Could you push a target of the Levitate spell using Mage Hand?
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Mage Hand can't attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.
By RAW, I would say no, unless the creature was no more than 10 pounds. Even though real world physics would allow for the Mage Hand to apply a constant force, that doesn't translate well into game mechanics, and against a hostile creature, it would be considered an attack.
At my personal table, I would probably let it grant very, very slow movement, if it was being used creatively.
I typically see Levitate being interpreted as the suspended creature being considered weightless. All the talk of moving them by pushing against fixed objects certainly conjures images of moving in space. If a creature needed to exert typical force to move itself that way, I'd expect the spell to make some mention of pushing/pulling the creature still using grapple drag rules, or requiring a strength check, or something.
TLDR, yeah, using Mage Hand to drag a Levitating creature is a classic interaction which seems RAI.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Levitate explicitly states that moving by pushing/pulling functions according to climbing rules. That typically means moving at half speed. If the target were properly "weightless"/"massless", they should be able to move faster than normal, not slower.
I'd say no.
RAW you can push/drag/lift up to twice your carrying capacity, which in this case is Mage Hand's 10 pounds. So unless the levitated creature weighs 20 pounds or less, the mage hand cannot move it.
There is nothing in the Levitate spell that suggests that the target is weightless. If it was, the target wouldn't need to push/pull against a fixed object/surface (any object/surface would do).
I'm with No gang on this one. Levitate works more like a lifting force than weight reduction.
The spell doesn't say anything about weight reduction, just movement.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
My read of it brings me to No. Only mention of weight is the cap on how much can be affected.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Lifting force is weight reduction. Weight is how much down-force you exert. If you exert 0 down-force, you are by definition weightless. Note that a weightless creature would need to move using the climb rules, as listed in the spell, because it still has mass, and has to overcome its own inertia. Astronauts clambering about on the ISS have to exert muscle effort to move, it's just a very different way of moving.
If Levitate makes you weightless, here's the math on it:
Assuming standard gravity, a 200 pound creature masses 90.7185 kg, and mage hand seems to be able to exert 44.4822 newtons. That means you can accelerate a previously 200 pound target at 0.490332181 m / s^2 . 6 seconds of that is 8.825979258 meters, which is nearly 29 feet. If levitated targets can be moved, mage hand should be able to move them 29 feet (rounding), 28 feet (rounding down, as usual in 5E), or 25 feet (rounding down to nearest grid distance). Distance would be less for a 500 pound creature (linearly - divide the distance by 2.5, so 11.58 feet). The reason for the big if is that Levitate says "The target can move only by [...]". It's an entirely valid way to read the spell to assume that Levitate makes you immune to forced movement effects other than Levitate while it's on you - that is, it certainly says that the only way the target can move is how the spell says it can move. Levitate might make the target immune to being moved by a grappler, by a swarmkeeper, by telekinesis, etc etc. If that's the case, it certainly also renders the target immune to Mage Hand.
Now, the thing is, Levitate doesn't actually say it makes you weightless. For example, it could literally lift you up telekinetically, so you're hanging in a telekinetic harness, basically. Then, when you try to move yourself with the climbing rules, what you're doing is fighting the harness. That doesn't match the word Levitate, but many many many spells disobey their own name. Grease summons lubricant, not grease (actual grease is flammable), and Chill Touch isn't chilly. We can't conclude from the spell name that Levitate actually levitates. On top of the issue I raised above about the spell potentially excluding all other methods of movement, Levitate has no text letting the wind move you. That's pretty damning. If you were genuinely weightless and floating in the air, wind could easily move you just as mage hand can, and the spell doesn't mention that.
tl;dr Levitate seems to stop all external forces other than Levitate from moving you, so you seem to be immune to both strong winds and mage hand. If your DM rules instead that the spell renders you weightless, both wind and mage hand can move you.
It came up as a way to get a character across a ravine. As the DM I let it work as it seemed like a creative work around for the problem, but thought I would come here to see what other thought.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
If the arrows tug loose or the twine breaks, you don't fall, so just shoot more arrows.
As an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, I think the levitation tricks seemed more thematic plus they didn't have a bow or string. Interesting idea though.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
So what about the Gust cantrip? It should be able to at the very least push them 5 feet as they would have no way of succeeding on a Str saving throw if they are not right beside a wall (having nothing to grab onto/stand against). In 30 seconds, you could move them 25 feet.
I have a problem with this style of mathematical analysis that assumes a creature’s weight (that you made up only to the nearest 100 lbs) to the nearest tenth of a gram. How you report numbers is important, and this whole analysis reports them ridiculously precisely for a game that rounds things to rounds, minutes, or hours and generally works in 5’ distance increments.
I would rule that situationally, they could not make the strength save to avoid being moved by the gust.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So if I pick you up with a forklift, you have instant weight loss?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I will admit, I have always pictured it as weightlessness as in space, but Quin's description of an invisible force gripping them in mid-air and locking them in position is just as possible under the spell description. I've often seen Levitate used to drag things with a rope easily, but I suppose RAW there's a good argument for going the other way.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wouldn't the physics regarding buoyancy be more applicable in the case of Levitation?
Either way, I just thought it was an interesting way to deal with an environmental hazard and let it go. If they were to try to use it in combat, it wouldn't be a very effective form of movement since Mage hand requires an action to use so I am not too worried about the ramifications for now.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
If it were a matter of buoyancy, the target would have difficulty staying upright, and have to deal with "swimming" in air. However, the game was never designed to get that granular, so you are perfectly within your right as a DM to put whatever flair you want on the spell.
It's an intuitive and creative solution to a common problem. The only issue with it is the ability to "Fly" at a significantly lower level than normal. As long as it comes with stiff downsides, like very slow movement, then it will present plenty of opportunities for fun drama.
Eh, I see a difference between "carrying" and "pushing", from a logical perspective anyway. While levitating does not make a creature weightless, the presence or lack of any resistance behind the creature determines how easily it is able to be moved (further, the limitations on movement given in the spell are against the target, not outside forces). If the creature is fully untethered/unconnected to anything, the only resistance is that of the air, which 10 pounds of force would be able to overcome easily. I'd allow mage hand to work here, and call it a clever use of the spells to solve the problem.
I'd also allow the gust cantrip to move them (given that the STR save should logically be assumed to be made while you are connected to something to push against the wind, like the ground, so situationally you should not be able to make it)
I'd also allow one string shot from an arrow and the levitating creature pulling themselves along it to work.