If we want to get silly with it, the Mage Hand is perfectly capable of holding a 15ft pole or the end of a 30ft rope that a target could then "climb" along.
Within the 30ft range of Mage Hand, it's not worth getting too in the weeds about. A DM can provide a reasonable anchor point to make it a non-issue. Beyond 30ft, there needs to be some real scrutiny. A ridiculously slow "fly speed" is good enough to let the DM insert some drama, if the players would otherwise bypass something that was planned.
Yes, this is the point at which the thread got silly... :P
I mean, if the wizard wants to maintain concentration on levitateand use up their action every round with mage hand just to give someone or something 5 ft of "hovering" speed while not being able to move more than 30 ft away from that person or thing, as a DM (or as any of the party's enemies) I would have absolutely no problem with that
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Anyway, our group has decided that this works just fine for us. Its uses are limited by the amount of resources it uses and is a very poor stand in for actual flight so not OP in in any way. Thanks for all the input everyone.
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Wait. Are you now saying that Mage Hand can't push or pull open an unlocked door or that it can't push or pull a lever? Pushing and pulling are basic interactions.
I just said spells do what they say. Opening doors and interacting with objects is specifically what mage hand says it is for. So, no, I am obviously not saying that.
Mage hand can interact with objects and carry objects that weigh 10 pounds or less. It can't push, pull, or even grapple (grab clothing) a creature as those are completely different rules from what it can do and even borders on what it specifically can't do.
In fact, here: mage hand. <-This is what I think know mage hand can do. I hope that is clear enough that you don't ask me any more antagonizing, false questions.
Yes, technically Mage Hand CAN push or pull on a mountain. Would there be any significant result? No. But it can still interact with the mountain. I am not sure why you are so angry. You were the one that said that Mage Hand can't push. That was you. Don't start insulting me for your words.
Yes, technically Mage Hand CAN push or pull on a mountain. Would there be any significant result? No. But it can still interact with the mountain. I am not sure why you are so angry. You were the one that said that Mage Hand can't push. That was you. Don't start insulting me for your words.
Yeah, sorry, I'll edit out some of the more confrontational language. I'm just sick of arguing. Then in response to me saying that I don't to argue, someone immediately argues that I said something opposite of what I just said.
No. Technically, mage hand can't push a mountain. It has a carry weight of 10 pounds and even generously converting that to push weight as if it were a creature, that is a limit of 20 pounds. I know you are trying to be clever and are talking about physics, but D&D is a game, this is a rules forum, and the rules say no, full stop.
When I said mage hand can't push. I meant the rules for pushing creatures and objects, not the rules for pushing doors and buttons which are called object interactions. Did I mention this was a game with rules? The rules have titles. "Push" and "interact" are different titles for different rules.
If I come across as angry it is only because I am being deliberately antagonized.
Yes, technically Mage Hand CAN push or pull on a mountain. Would there be any significant result? No. But it can still interact with the mountain. I am not sure why you are so angry. You were the one that said that Mage Hand can't push. That was you. Don't start insulting me for your words.
Yeah, sorry, I'll edit out some of the more confrontational language. I'm just sick of arguing. Then in response to me saying that I don't to argue, someone immediately argues that I said something opposite of what I just said.
No. Technically, mage hand can't push a mountain. It has a carry weight of 10 pounds and even generously converting that to push weight as if it were a creature, that is a limit of 20 pounds. I know you are trying to be clever and are talking about physics, but D&D is a game, this is a rules forum, and the rules say no, full stop.
When I said mage hand can't push. I meant the rules for pushing creatures and objects, not the rules for pushing doors and buttons which are called object interactions. Did I mention this was a game with rules? The rules have titles. "Push" and "interact" are different titles for different rules.
If I come across as angry it is only because I am being deliberately antagonized.
Well, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that pushing an object or willing creature is different than using the Shove attack (or Grappling) action and I really don't think that those rules would apply to this situation at all.
Yes, technically Mage Hand CAN push or pull on a mountain. Would there be any significant result? No. But it can still interact with the mountain. I am not sure why you are so angry. You were the one that said that Mage Hand can't push. That was you. Don't start insulting me for your words.
Yeah, sorry, I'll edit out some of the more confrontational language. I'm just sick of arguing. Then in response to me saying that I don't to argue, someone immediately argues that I said something opposite of what I just said.
No. Technically, mage hand can't push a mountain. It has a carry weight of 10 pounds and even generously converting that to push weight as if it were a creature, that is a limit of 20 pounds. I know you are trying to be clever and are talking about physics, but D&D is a game, this is a rules forum, and the rules say no, full stop.
When I said mage hand can't push. I meant the rules for pushing creatures and objects, not the rules for pushing doors and buttons which are called object interactions. Did I mention this was a game with rules? The rules have titles. "Push" and "interact" are different titles for different rules.
If I come across as angry it is only because I am being deliberately antagonized.
Well, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that pushing an object or willing creature is different than using the Shove attack (or Grappling) action and I really don't think that those rules would apply to this situation at all.
And we will also have to agree to disagree on whether an adventurer and their equipment weigh more than 10 pounds.
Like, I have no problem with players being creative and DMs allowing it. I think it is fine if this was allowed in your game. But this is the rules forum, where we discuss rules. The rules don't make the creatures lighter or let mage hand push that much weight.
Like, I have no problem with players being creative and DMs allowing it. I think it is fine if this was allowed in your game. But this is the rules forum, where we discuss rules. The rules don't make the creatures lighter or let mage hand push that much weight.
How would you view the earlier suggestion to have the mage hand hold up 30 feet of rope and let the levitated person "crawl" along it?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Like, I have no problem with players being creative and DMs allowing it. I think it is fine if this was allowed in your game. But this is the rules forum, where we discuss rules. The rules don't make the creatures lighter or let mage hand push that much weight.
How would you view the earlier suggestion to have the mage hand hold up 30 feet of rope and let the levitated person "crawl" along it?
My two cents. (You can give me change back if you'd like) Is that holding up the rope would be ok, but as it was pointed out before, and I think it's a valid take, Levitate does not reduce the mass of the character so any significant tug on the rope would pull it out of the mage hand's hand.
Like, I have no problem with players being creative and DMs allowing it. I think it is fine if this was allowed in your game. But this is the rules forum, where we discuss rules. The rules don't make the creatures lighter or let mage hand push that much weight.
How would you view the earlier suggestion to have the mage hand hold up 30 feet of rope and let the levitated person "crawl" along it?
I would allow the hand to tie off the rope. But the idea of a hand that isn't strong enough to move a person being able to resist a person pulling it with the same weight doesn't make sense to me. It would be like tug of war.
My only point in mentioning the Mage Hand holding a rope was to remove some of the "push/pull" rules arguements, since the rope acts as a more understandable binder for the spell/target. The rules for mage hand are just as unclear about what happens if the weight limitation is exceeded by an external source as it is about what it's allowed to do.
A rules literalist would have to take it from both the "It doesn't say it can carry more than 10lbs" approach and the "It doesn't say that a creature can force it to drop something" approach. One can be exploited to produce the desired result, the other couldn't.
Obviously, letting a 2 ton gorilla climb a rope held by Mage Hand is absurd, but so is the idea that the hand couldn't apply enough force to produce *some* movement on a floating object, given enough time. The smallest practical movement increment is 5ft per turn.
I guess thematically, the actual argument is about whether Levitate makes one "weightless" hanging in the air, or if there is some form of weight that is maintained as though they were standing on a platform. Personally, I have never seen a form of Levitate in any fantasy genre, that allows the levitating person/creature any kind of base or stability. I most fantasy lore, there are examples of mages casting levitate on a heavy object in order to move it (levitate the stone slab and shove it off to the side) That is the mentality I apply in allowing the combo to work, others have a different tack.
Yes, this is a rules forum and the weight limit of Mage Hand is considered. Sadly, the Levitate spell lacks details on what is happening to the thing being levitated, so far as what affects it. It seems some are using Levitate to create a disc under the creature's feet, which lifts it. If that is their take, then fine. As many have said, it's got to be table ruled, as the Levitate spell's description doesn't give enough detail to say for certain if it would work or not.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
My only point in mentioning the Mage Hand holding a rope was to remove some of the "push/pull" rules arguements, since the rope acts as a more understandable binder for the spell/target. The rules for mage hand are just as unclear about what happens if the weight limitation is exceeded by an external source as it is about what it's allowed to do.
A rules literalist would have to take it from both the "It doesn't say it can carry more than 10lbs" approach and the "It doesn't say that a creature can force it to drop something" approach. One can be exploited to produce the desired result, the other couldn't.
Obviously, letting a 2 ton gorilla climb a rope held by Mage Hand is absurd, but so is the idea that the hand couldn't apply enough force to produce *some* movement on a floating object, given enough time. The smallest practical movement increment is 5ft per turn.
Just do whatever is right for the table.
I think that the spell description is very clear.
It can only carry 10 lbs, so if the object suddenly has more weight then the spell won't work on that object any more.
Devils advocate… thresholds for first targeting a spell or effect don’t always continue to limit the spell once it’s in effect. Creatures within range can leave range while an effect remains active on them, or go from seen to unseen… there’s an interesting debate on if they arguably can even change creature types (wild shape or polymorph) without breaking “target humanoid” spells that are already on them.
5E doesn’t explicitly have a step in combat to re-check spell effect criteria after its already in place, and spells commonly include their own language to accomplish that if necessary, telling you that if X happens the spell or effect ends.
Would I let a mage hand lift a 5 lb stone, but then let characters climb it? No. But it’s an idea that has some similarities to how other spell effects are treated…
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Agreed, the spell says the target can move by pushing or pulling, not something can push or pull them.
It doesn't say something can't push or pull them either. It's silent on the issue, which means pushing and pulling them works exactly the way it would normally work.
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Yes, this is the point at which the thread got silly... :P
I mean, if the wizard wants to maintain concentration on levitate and use up their action every round with mage hand just to give someone or something 5 ft of "hovering" speed while not being able to move more than 30 ft away from that person or thing, as a DM (or as any of the party's enemies) I would have absolutely no problem with that
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
mage hand only works on objects, so it can't be used to push a levitating creature.
But it can be used to push or pull on a belt worn by a levitating creature. It never specifies that the item must be unattended as other spells do.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't think it needs to say unattended. Under your argument it can just push any piece of clothing on the person.
So you would also argue that it can be used to rotate the helmet on someone's head in order to blind them (assuming the helmet weighs under 10 lbs)?
Anyway, our group has decided that this works just fine for us. Its uses are limited by the amount of resources it uses and is a very poor stand in for actual flight so not OP in in any way. Thanks for all the input everyone.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Nope that would fall under "attacking" since the creature is unwilling. Should the creature not be opposed to the idea then sure.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I just said spells do what they say. Opening doors and interacting with objects is specifically what mage hand says it is for. So, no, I am obviously not saying that.
Mage hand can interact with objects and carry objects that weigh 10 pounds or less. It can't push, pull, or even grapple (grab clothing) a creature as those are completely different rules from what it can do and even borders on what it specifically can't do.
In fact, here: mage hand. <-This is what I
thinkknow mage hand can do. I hope that is clear enough that you don't ask me any more antagonizing, false questions.[Edit]Added manors.
Yes, technically Mage Hand CAN push or pull on a mountain. Would there be any significant result? No. But it can still interact with the mountain. I am not sure why you are so angry. You were the one that said that Mage Hand can't push. That was you. Don't start insulting me for your words.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah, sorry, I'll edit out some of the more confrontational language. I'm just sick of arguing. Then in response to me saying that I don't to argue, someone immediately argues that I said something opposite of what I just said.
No. Technically, mage hand can't push a mountain. It has a carry weight of 10 pounds and even generously converting that to push weight as if it were a creature, that is a limit of 20 pounds. I know you are trying to be clever and are talking about physics, but D&D is a game, this is a rules forum, and the rules say no, full stop.
When I said mage hand can't push. I meant the rules for pushing creatures and objects, not the rules for pushing doors and buttons which are called object interactions. Did I mention this was a game with rules? The rules have titles. "Push" and "interact" are different titles for different rules.
If I come across as angry it is only because I am being deliberately antagonized.
Well, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that pushing an object or willing creature is different than using the Shove attack (or Grappling) action and I really don't think that those rules would apply to this situation at all.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
And we will also have to agree to disagree on whether an adventurer and their equipment weigh more than 10 pounds.
Like, I have no problem with players being creative and DMs allowing it. I think it is fine if this was allowed in your game. But this is the rules forum, where we discuss rules. The rules don't make the creatures lighter or let mage hand push that much weight.
How would you view the earlier suggestion to have the mage hand hold up 30 feet of rope and let the levitated person "crawl" along it?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My two cents. (You can give me change back if you'd like) Is that holding up the rope would be ok, but as it was pointed out before, and I think it's a valid take, Levitate does not reduce the mass of the character so any significant tug on the rope would pull it out of the mage hand's hand.
I would allow the hand to tie off the rope. But the idea of a hand that isn't strong enough to move a person being able to resist a person pulling it with the same weight doesn't make sense to me. It would be like tug of war.
My only point in mentioning the Mage Hand holding a rope was to remove some of the "push/pull" rules arguements, since the rope acts as a more understandable binder for the spell/target. The rules for mage hand are just as unclear about what happens if the weight limitation is exceeded by an external source as it is about what it's allowed to do.
A rules literalist would have to take it from both the "It doesn't say it can carry more than 10lbs" approach and the "It doesn't say that a creature can force it to drop something" approach. One can be exploited to produce the desired result, the other couldn't.
Obviously, letting a 2 ton gorilla climb a rope held by Mage Hand is absurd, but so is the idea that the hand couldn't apply enough force to produce *some* movement on a floating object, given enough time. The smallest practical movement increment is 5ft per turn.
Just do whatever is right for the table.
I guess thematically, the actual argument is about whether Levitate makes one "weightless" hanging in the air, or if there is some form of weight that is maintained as though they were standing on a platform. Personally, I have never seen a form of Levitate in any fantasy genre, that allows the levitating person/creature any kind of base or stability. I most fantasy lore, there are examples of mages casting levitate on a heavy object in order to move it (levitate the stone slab and shove it off to the side) That is the mentality I apply in allowing the combo to work, others have a different tack.
Yes, this is a rules forum and the weight limit of Mage Hand is considered. Sadly, the Levitate spell lacks details on what is happening to the thing being levitated, so far as what affects it. It seems some are using Levitate to create a disc under the creature's feet, which lifts it. If that is their take, then fine. As many have said, it's got to be table ruled, as the Levitate spell's description doesn't give enough detail to say for certain if it would work or not.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I think that the spell description is very clear.
It can only carry 10 lbs, so if the object suddenly has more weight then the spell won't work on that object any more.
Sure, but what does "won't work" mean?
Does it mean that:
A) The mage hand simply stalls out and can't move, or
B) the object passes through the mage hand and drops to the floor, or
C) the mage hand falls with the object, or
D) Mage Hand ends entirely and needs to be recast.
Each option has very different implications.
Can someone grapple the Mage Hand or take something from it? Does it roll a contested check, or does it automatically fail?
Devils advocate… thresholds for first targeting a spell or effect don’t always continue to limit the spell once it’s in effect. Creatures within range can leave range while an effect remains active on them, or go from seen to unseen… there’s an interesting debate on if they arguably can even change creature types (wild shape or polymorph) without breaking “target humanoid” spells that are already on them.
5E doesn’t explicitly have a step in combat to re-check spell effect criteria after its already in place, and spells commonly include their own language to accomplish that if necessary, telling you that if X happens the spell or effect ends.
Would I let a mage hand lift a 5 lb stone, but then let characters climb it? No. But it’s an idea that has some similarities to how other spell effects are treated…
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It doesn't say something can't push or pull them either. It's silent on the issue, which means pushing and pulling them works exactly the way it would normally work.