The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barbs' effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Basically to add further to this is that the PC/NPC that is using Silvery Barbs is basically turning around to the DM/Player when they say X happens with their roll and getting told by that PC/NPC "Nope, I'm using Silvery Barbs, reroll that die and then tell us if you success or not."
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
I am also going to point out this part, which people may have missed.
"* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
That litter asterisk is up next to Reaction in Casting Time. So the use of LR making that a Success would mean they have to reroll that D20 no matter what, since they turned their failed roll into a Successful roll.
The thing is, they didn’t succeed on a roll. They failed on a roll, then used the LR to overcome the fail. Since there was no successful roll, there’s no trigger for silvery barbs.
Similar to how magic missile doesn’t count as an attack, since there was no attack roll.
he has a different view that isn’t a “legendary resistance bomb” take on it.
I must be struggling to communicate these days, because I'm being misunderstood quite a bit in multiple conversations.
I do not think that Silvery Barbs can force a meaningful reroll after a Legendary Resistance has been used. I'm only saying that it can turn "Natural Successes" into possible failures for a low cost.
Basically, it can increase the chances that a BBEG will *use* a L.R., rather than waste one that has already been used. This is similar to imposing disadvantage prior to casting a debilitating spell. It is similar to the effect of the Shadowfell Shard, but can be triggered as a reaction.
Which, admittedly, isn't a good reason to restrict it. It just feels too easy compared to existing options. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the players feel like they're getting away with something, but it doesn't actually change the meta, then that's a win-win.
Correction: It's actually notably better than the Shadowfell Shard effect for a single instance, so it probably is overpowered in that regard.
Edit: If a caster uses the Shadowfell Shard to impose Disadvantage, Silvery Barbs can stack with it to effectively impose double-disadvantage. But only when it's advantageous to do so, so it's resource efficient.
he has a different view that isn’t a “legendary resistance bomb” take on it.
I must be struggling to communicate these days, because I'm being misunderstood quite a bit in multiple conversations.
I do not think that Silvery Barbs can force a meaningful reroll after a Legendary Resistance has been used. I'm only saying that it can turn "Natural Successes" into possible failures for a low cost.
Basically, it can increase the chances that a BBEG will *use* a L.R., rather than waste one that has already been used. This is similar to imposing disadvantage prior to casting a debilitating spell. It is similar to the effect of the Shadowfell Shard, but can be triggered as a reaction.
Which, admittedly, isn't a good reason to restrict it. It just feels too easy compared to existing options. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the players feel like they're getting away with something, but it doesn't actually change the meta, then that's a win-win.
LR fishing
Crit busting
Effectively neutralizes advantage against spells
One of the very few ways to make a natural 20 attack roll not be a hit
Level 18 wizard doesn't even need to use a spell slot on it
It's certainly a solid multipurpose level 1 spell.
he has a different view that isn’t a “legendary resistance bomb” take on it.
I must be struggling to communicate these days, because I'm being misunderstood quite a bit in multiple conversations.
I do not think that Silvery Barbs can force a meaningful reroll after a Legendary Resistance has been used. I'm only saying that it can turn "Natural Successes" into possible failures for a low cost.
Basically, it can increase the chances that a BBEG will *use* a L.R., rather than waste one that has already been used. This is similar to imposing disadvantage prior to casting a debilitating spell. It is similar to the effect of the Shadowfell Shard, but can be triggered as a reaction.
Which, admittedly, isn't a good reason to restrict it. It just feels too easy compared to existing options. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the players feel like they're getting away with something, but it doesn't actually change the meta, then that's a win-win.
LR fishing
Crit busting
Effectively neutralizes advantage against spells
One of the very few ways to make a natural 20 attack roll not be a hit
Level 18 wizard doesn't even need to use a spell slot on it
It's certainly a solid multipurpose level 1 spell.
You can the be the rogue in the party’s best friend.
The trigger only requires a success, not a successful roll. The spell's trigger is "* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw." The actual roll is only necessary to satisfy the use of the word "reroll" in the spell's description. I take issue with that last part, but I will set that aside for the purpose of this example.
Let's say you cast fireball on a dragon, and you have a spell save DC of 16. The dragon must make a DEX saving throw. The dragon rolls a 12* and fails the saving throw. Then the dragon says, "I think I'll use legendary resistance to succeed** on this saving throw."
* This is the saving throw roll that satisfies the word "reroll" in the spell's description ** This is the success that triggers [Tooltip Not Found] to be cast
Sure, but nothing would happen. They could reroll the already failed check, to get a lower roll, but it doesn't change the outcome at all. It would be a wasted spell slot. I guess if you REALLY needed one person to have advantage on their next d20 roll, then sure. But over all, we are talking about a non issue. The Legendary Resistance is completely unaffected by this spell.
The problem with this interpretation is that it means the spell doesn't work on saving throws at all, even without Legendary Resistance. The interpretation is valid, to be sure, but it also invalidates Shield. To explain, I'll illustrate the flow of how both spells work:
Adam rolls an attack (for Shield) or a saving throw (for Silvery Barbs).
Supposing the attempt fails, Adam can use abilities that can turn failures into successes. For example, suppose Adam is a Legendary Monk, for simplicity. He can use Focused Aim after learning the attack was a miss to turn it into a hit, and he can use Legendary Resistance after learning the saving throw was a failure to turn it into a success.
Bob responds by casting Shield (if it was an attack) or Silvery Barbs (if it was a saving throw).
In the case of Silvery Barbs, Adam rolls the saving throw again. In the case of Shield, no new roll is made.
This is where the rules hole is, so I used italic bold font to draw emphasis to it.
In the case of an attack, there is no rule in the game actually saying to go back and compare the original attack roll to the new AC. There is a rule, in the Shield spell itself, stating that the new AC applies to the triggering attack, but that's not actually relevant, because the rules for resolving an attack don't care what the target's AC is once you've hit or missed, and at this point Adam has hit. So even if he would miss due to the new AC, no rule in the game actually says to perform this comparison and make him miss if appropriate. It does not matter if Adam used Focused Aim.
In the case of a saving throw, it likewise does not matter if Adam used Legendary Resistance. Legendary Resistance has no special rules changing whether or not you re-check your result when the old number changes - and exactly like with rolling to hit, no such rule exists for Silvery Barbs. That is, whether or not LR was used, because Silvery Barbs by definition happens after the save succeeded, no rule in the game actually says to re-check for success using the new roll.
So either Silvery Barbs does nothing at all (because the new die result is not used to determine success or failure) or it does, and this has nothing to do with Legendary Resistance in particular. Here's a more drawn out flow than above, in case it would be helpful, focusing only on Silvery Barbs,
With Legendary Resistance:
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a failure.
Adam uses Legendary Resistance, so he succeeds on the save.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
Without Legendary Resistance:
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a success.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
See what I mean? The spell works or it doesn't. Legendary Resistance has no particularly special interaction, in the same way Focused Aim has no particularly special interaction for determining if the Shield spell works the way most DMs interpret it as working.
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barbs' effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Basically to add further to this is that the PC/NPC that is using Silvery Barbs is basically turning around to the DM/Player when they say X happens with their roll and getting told by that PC/NPC "Nope, I'm using Silvery Barbs, reroll that die and then tell us if you success or not."
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
I am also going to point out this part, which people may have missed.
"* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
That litter asterisk is up next to Reaction in Casting Time. So the use of LR making that a Success would mean they have to reroll that D20 no matter what, since they turned their failed roll into a Successful roll.
The thing is, they didn’t succeed on a roll. They failed on a roll, then used the LR to overcome the fail. Since there was no successful roll, there’s no trigger for silvery barbs.
Similar to how magic missile doesn’t count as an attack, since there was no attack roll.
Then you just answered the WHOLE LR argument that seems to be going on, no I aint reading it, TLDR.
If LR is being imposed on a failed roll then Silvery Barbs can NOT be used as a Reaction spell in that case.
The issue that people seem to have with the spell is that to them it affects LR.
It doesnt affect it at all since the roll has been made, the decision of LR is then used AFTER and doesnt trigger. That however is only on a LR that makes the decision AFTER the roll. If the LR is allows them to reroll, not that I have seen there is but I've had my head stuck in dragons these past few days, and they succeed, then you can use Silvery Barbs as your Reaction to make them reroll that roll.
PS: Magic Missile was a bad example to use, Shield is there to deal with that :D
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a failure.
Adam uses Legendary Resistance, so he succeeds on the save.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
The answer is no. The roll failed and rerolling it and getting a lower roll is still a failure. What makes it a success is the Legendary Resistance the number that appears on the dice no longer matters.
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a success.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
The answer is yes because the roll was a success and can now become a failure. In this case the die roll is what results in the success.
The problem with this interpretation is that it means the spell doesn't work on saving throws at all, even without Legendary Resistance. The interpretation is valid, to be sure, but it also invalidates Shield. To explain, I'll illustrate the flow of how both spells work:
Adam rolls an attack (for Shield) or a saving throw (for Silvery Barbs).
Supposing the attempt fails, Adam can use abilities that can turn failures into successes. For example, suppose Adam is a Legendary Monk, for simplicity. He can use Focused Aim after learning the attack was a miss to turn it into a hit, and he can use Legendary Resistance after learning the saving throw was a failure to turn it into a success.
Bob responds by casting Shield (if it was an attack) or Silvery Barbs (if it was a saving throw).
In the case of Silvery Barbs, Adam rolls the saving throw again. In the case of Shield, no new roll is made.
This is where the rules hole is, so I used italic bold font to draw emphasis to it.
In the case of an attack, there is no rule in the game actually saying to go back and compare the original attack roll to the new AC. There is a rule, in the Shield spell itself, stating that the new AC applies to the triggering attack, but that's not actually relevant, because the rules for resolving an attack don't care what the target's AC is once you've hit or missed, and at this point Adam has hit. So even if he would miss due to the new AC, no rule in the game actually says to perform this comparison and make him miss if appropriate. It does not matter if Adam used Focused Aim.
In the case of a saving throw, it likewise does not matter if Adam used Legendary Resistance. Legendary Resistance has no special rules changing whether or not you re-check your result when the old number changes - and exactly like with rolling to hit, no such rule exists for Silvery Barbs. That is, whether or not LR was used, because Silvery Barbs by definition happens after the save succeeded, no rule in the game actually says to re-check for success using the new roll.
So either Silvery Barbs does nothing at all (because the new die result is not used to determine success or failure) or it does, and this has nothing to do with Legendary Resistance in particular. Here's a more drawn out flow than above, in case it would be helpful, focusing only on Silvery Barbs,
With Legendary Resistance:
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a failure.
Adam uses Legendary Resistance, so he succeeds on the save.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
Without Legendary Resistance:
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a success.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
See what I mean? The spell works or it doesn't. Legendary Resistance has no particularly special interaction, in the same way Focused Aim has no particularly special interaction for determining if the Shield spell works the way most DMs interpret it as working.
I'm not sure that the focused aim / shield example matters because at the end of everything, the defender has AC + 5 and the monk has attack roll + 6, and you still end up with two numbers to compare to find out if the attack beat the AC.
To me Legendary Resistance apply to the saving throw result entirely, so Silvery Barbs won't have any effect on it.
Being forced to reroll a saving throw that is already determined to be successful regardless of the number rolled will not change the result of it. If a legendary creature rolls a 1 on a saving throw, use Legendary Resistance to make the result a success, you may now use Silvery Barbs to make it reroll that 1 and use the lower result, but it won't change the overall saving throw result to remain successful, because Legendary Resistance 's effect is not tie to the die roll, but the saving throw overall result.
For Silvery Barbs to overcome a Legendary Resistance, it would need to specifically say it turn the saving throw into a failure instead.
It strikes me that this LR situation isn't completely new to Silvery Barbs. We already have a similar scenario when a Stunned fighter wants to use Indomitable on a Strength save. I think everyone would agree the following scenario checks out:
Stunned Fighter is forced to make a Strength saving throw.
Fighter still rolls a d20 (its superfluous, but this step isn't ignored by the stunned rules), but regardless of the d20 roll, the stunned Fighter automatically fails his saving throw because he is stunned.
Since the fighter has failed a saving throw, Indomitable triggers, and allows the Fighter to (if he wishes) reroll the saving throw. Indomitable explicitly states that the fighter must use the new roll.
Even though the Fighter is explicitly told to use the new roll for the saving throw, the Strength save is still a failure, as another rule (the stunned condition) has overwritten the save to be a failure, regardless of the die roll.
Now compare the following Legendary Resistance + Silvery Barbs interaction:
Monster is forced to make a saving throw.
The monster rolls a d20 and rolls too low, so it uses a Legendary Resistance to automatically succeed on the saving throw.
Since the monster has succeeded on a saving throw, Silvery barbs can be cast on them. Silvery Barbs explicitly states that the monster uses the lower roll.
Even though the monster is explicitly forced to use the lower roll by Silvery Barbs, the save is still a success, as another rule (Legendary Resistance) has overwritten the save to be a success, regardless of the die roll.
It strikes me that this LR situation isn't completely new to Silvery Barbs. We already have a similar scenario when a Stunned fighter wants to use Indomitable on a Strength save. I think everyone would agree the following scenario checks out:
Stunned Fighter is forced to make a Strength saving throw.
Fighter still rolls a d20 (its superfluous, but this step isn't ignored by the stunned rules), but regardless of the d20 roll, the stunned Fighter automatically fails his saving throw because he is stunned.
Since the fighter has failed a saving throw, Indomitable triggers, and allows the Fighter to (if he wishes) reroll the saving throw. Indomitable explicitly states that the fighter must use the new roll.
Even though the Fighter is explicitly told to use the new roll for the saving throw, the Strength save is still a failure, as another rule (the stunned condition) has overwritten the save to be a failure, regardless of the die roll.
Now compare the following Legendary Resistance + Silvery Barbs interaction:
Monster is forced to make a saving throw.
The monster rolls a d20 and rolls too low, so it uses a Legendary Resistance to automatically succeed on the saving throw.
Since the monster has succeeded on a saving throw, Silvery barbs can be cast on them. Silvery Barbs explicitly states that the monster uses the lower roll.
Even though the monster is explicitly forced to use the lower roll by Silvery Barbs, the save is still a success, as another rule (Legendary Resistance) has overwritten the save to be a success, regardless of the die roll.
That seems pretty congruent to me.
You're arguing that Legendary Resistance has a duration of the entire save, instead of being consumed when it coerces a success, because Stunned applies for the whole save (i.e. the reason Stunned beats Indomitable is because the Fighter is Stunned during both the first and second rolls). Note that most people agree Indomitable does not have a duration of the entire save: if you have 3 instances of Indomitable and you fail a save, you can re-roll it multiple times, but each re-roll consumes an Indomitable. There's nothing in the text of Legendary Resistance indicating that it's different, and Legendarily Resistant isn't a condition, so presumably, each time the creature fails the save, it has to LR again. But also we have no rules here - LR has no defined duration. And we know non-conditions can have durations like conditions: see Surprised, which isn't a condition but mechanically behaves like one in every way (which is why when the 5E PHB first dropped, no-one knew when a surprised creature stopped being surprised - conditions last until they end and back then we had no info from WOTC on when this one ended). You could totally be right that LR is like Surprised: it has a non-instantaneous duration and we just don't know it. But you could also totally be wrong: each use of LR could apply to a specific roll. Without more info from WOTC than we have, all we can do is have each individual DM rule as they see fit, and some tables will see the spell being far more powerful than other tables.
From reading some of the replies, it seems that people are assuming that the creature that is the first target for this spell must have advantage/disadvantage before they can be targeted with this spell.... odd....
Anyway- This is how I'll be running Silvery Barbs when dealing with adv/disadv/LR If the original roll was with adv it would look like this: Advantage rolls of 5 and 19; 19 hits Casting of Silvery Barbs, 19 is rerolled, roll is a 13 New result is a 13.
Legendary Resistance says.... If X fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead. If a creature uses LR, even if it does trigger a reroll, regardless of the result of that reroll the creature still succeeds that saving throw. (for me, it isn't about duration or anything of the sort. LR says the creature succeeds the saving throw regardless of dice, it doesn't change the dice roll to a success)
You're arguing that Legendary Resistance has a duration of the entire save, instead of being consumed when it coerces a success, because Stunned applies for the whole save (i.e. the reason Stunned beats Indomitable is because the Fighter is Stunned during both the first and second rolls). Note that most people agree Indomitable does not have a duration of the entire save: if you have 3 instances of Indomitable and you fail a save, you can re-roll it multiple times, but each re-roll consumes an Indomitable. There's nothing in the text of Legendary Resistance indicating that it's different, and Legendarily Resistant isn't a condition, so presumably, each time the creature fails the save, it has to LR again. But also we have no rules here - LR has no defined duration. And we know non-conditions can have durations like conditions: see Surprised, which isn't a condition but mechanically behaves like one in every way (which is why when the 5E PHB first dropped, no-one knew when a surprised creature stopped being surprised - conditions last until they end and back then we had no info from WOTC on when this one ended). You could totally be right that LR is like Surprised: it has a non-instantaneous duration and we just don't know it. But you could also totally be wrong: each use of LR could apply to a specific roll. Without more info from WOTC than we have, all we can do is have each individual DM rule as they see fit, and some tables will see the spell being far more powerful than other tables.
Actually if LR is instantaneous then the saving throw is perminantly modified into a success, regardless of how many times it is rerolled since the rolled value no longer determines if it fails or not.
From reading some of the replies, it seems that people are assuming that the creature that is the first target for this spell must have advantage/disadvantage before they can be targeted with this spell.... odd....
Yes because the mechanics of the spell are much more straightforward and less ambiguous in situations without multiple dice in play.
I see it quite clear. You roll your two dices because you have advantage, choose one of them. Then, in reaction, the caster casts Silvery barbs (since it is after choosing the die that the action has been successful, not before). You repeat that dice and you get the lowest result. I don't see any ambiguity about that.
Where I do see more of a problem is the Legendary Resistance issue. The way I interpret Legendary Resistance, even if you cast Silvery barbs, it would still work. Why? Because Legendary Resistance allows you to decide to pass the roll test. Then as I understand it, it would work as follows. The creature makes its save roll and misses it. So he decides to use his Legendary Resistance. The conjurer casts silvery barbs, but it is useless since the creature continues to pass save due to him using Legendary Resistance. I understand that someone could make another interpretation, but for me RAI it would work like this.
I'm arguing that legendary resistance bypasses the roll and sets the value of the save, just like the Stunned condition.
Yes, it does. I linked you the rules for resolving one, which means there's a before, an after, and a during.
Legendary resistance allow you to pass a failed save. So no, silvery barbs can't prevent this. During does not matter here. It applies to a save, not to the specific result of a die. Think about it like this: If you had disadvantage, and you rolled a result lower than required on both dice, would you apply LR? Yes, therefore it does not "overwrite" a die but it is applied to the save check.
The thing is, they didn’t succeed on a roll. They failed on a roll, then used the LR to overcome the fail. Since there was no successful roll, there’s no trigger for silvery barbs.
Similar to how magic missile doesn’t count as an attack, since there was no attack roll.
I must be struggling to communicate these days, because I'm being misunderstood quite a bit in multiple conversations.
I do not think that Silvery Barbs can force a meaningful reroll after a Legendary Resistance has been used. I'm only saying that it can turn "Natural Successes" into possible failures for a low cost.
Basically, it can increase the chances that a BBEG will *use* a L.R., rather than waste one that has already been used. This is similar to imposing disadvantage prior to casting a debilitating spell. It is similar to the effect of the Shadowfell Shard, but can be triggered as a reaction.
Which, admittedly, isn't a good reason to restrict it. It just feels too easy compared to existing options. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the players feel like they're getting away with something, but it doesn't actually change the meta, then that's a win-win.
Correction: It's actually notably better than the Shadowfell Shard effect for a single instance, so it probably is overpowered in that regard.
Edit: If a caster uses the Shadowfell Shard to impose Disadvantage, Silvery Barbs can stack with it to effectively impose double-disadvantage. But only when it's advantageous to do so, so it's resource efficient.
It's certainly a solid multipurpose level 1 spell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You can the be the rogue in the party’s best friend.
The problem with this interpretation is that it means the spell doesn't work on saving throws at all, even without Legendary Resistance. The interpretation is valid, to be sure, but it also invalidates Shield. To explain, I'll illustrate the flow of how both spells work:
So either Silvery Barbs does nothing at all (because the new die result is not used to determine success or failure) or it does, and this has nothing to do with Legendary Resistance in particular. Here's a more drawn out flow than above, in case it would be helpful, focusing only on Silvery Barbs,
With Legendary Resistance:
Without Legendary Resistance:
See what I mean? The spell works or it doesn't. Legendary Resistance has no particularly special interaction, in the same way Focused Aim has no particularly special interaction for determining if the Shield spell works the way most DMs interpret it as working.
Then you just answered the WHOLE LR argument that seems to be going on, no I aint reading it, TLDR.
If LR is being imposed on a failed roll then Silvery Barbs can NOT be used as a Reaction spell in that case.
The issue that people seem to have with the spell is that to them it affects LR.
It doesnt affect it at all since the roll has been made, the decision of LR is then used AFTER and doesnt trigger. That however is only on a LR that makes the decision AFTER the roll. If the LR is allows them to reroll, not that I have seen there is but I've had my head stuck in dragons these past few days, and they succeed, then you can use Silvery Barbs as your Reaction to make them reroll that roll.
PS: Magic Missile was a bad example to use, Shield is there to deal with that :D
The answer is no. The roll failed and rerolling it and getting a lower roll is still a failure. What makes it a success is the Legendary Resistance the number that appears on the dice no longer matters.
The answer is yes because the roll was a success and can now become a failure. In this case the die roll is what results in the success.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
If you don't read a thread, you shouldn't participate in a thread. You certainly shouldn't announce that you don't care enough to keep up.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm not sure that the focused aim / shield example matters because at the end of everything, the defender has AC + 5 and the monk has attack roll + 6, and you still end up with two numbers to compare to find out if the attack beat the AC.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To me Legendary Resistance apply to the saving throw result entirely, so Silvery Barbs won't have any effect on it.
Being forced to reroll a saving throw that is already determined to be successful regardless of the number rolled will not change the result of it. If a legendary creature rolls a 1 on a saving throw, use Legendary Resistance to make the result a success, you may now use Silvery Barbs to make it reroll that 1 and use the lower result, but it won't change the overall saving throw result to remain successful, because Legendary Resistance 's effect is not tie to the die roll, but the saving throw overall result.
For Silvery Barbs to overcome a Legendary Resistance, it would need to specifically say it turn the saving throw into a failure instead.
It strikes me that this LR situation isn't completely new to Silvery Barbs. We already have a similar scenario when a Stunned fighter wants to use Indomitable on a Strength save. I think everyone would agree the following scenario checks out:
Now compare the following Legendary Resistance + Silvery Barbs interaction:
That seems pretty congruent to me.
You're arguing that Legendary Resistance has a duration of the entire save, instead of being consumed when it coerces a success, because Stunned applies for the whole save (i.e. the reason Stunned beats Indomitable is because the Fighter is Stunned during both the first and second rolls). Note that most people agree Indomitable does not have a duration of the entire save: if you have 3 instances of Indomitable and you fail a save, you can re-roll it multiple times, but each re-roll consumes an Indomitable. There's nothing in the text of Legendary Resistance indicating that it's different, and Legendarily Resistant isn't a condition, so presumably, each time the creature fails the save, it has to LR again. But also we have no rules here - LR has no defined duration. And we know non-conditions can have durations like conditions: see Surprised, which isn't a condition but mechanically behaves like one in every way (which is why when the 5E PHB first dropped, no-one knew when a surprised creature stopped being surprised - conditions last until they end and back then we had no info from WOTC on when this one ended). You could totally be right that LR is like Surprised: it has a non-instantaneous duration and we just don't know it. But you could also totally be wrong: each use of LR could apply to a specific roll. Without more info from WOTC than we have, all we can do is have each individual DM rule as they see fit, and some tables will see the spell being far more powerful than other tables.
From reading some of the replies, it seems that people are assuming that the creature that is the first target for this spell must have advantage/disadvantage before they can be targeted with this spell.... odd....
Anyway- This is how I'll be running Silvery Barbs when dealing with adv/disadv/LR
If the original roll was with adv it would look like this:
Advantage rolls of 5 and 19; 19 hits
Casting of Silvery Barbs, 19 is rerolled, roll is a 13
New result is a 13.
Legendary Resistance says.... If X fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
If a creature uses LR, even if it does trigger a reroll, regardless of the result of that reroll the creature still succeeds that saving throw.
(for me, it isn't about duration or anything of the sort. LR says the creature succeeds the saving throw regardless of dice, it doesn't change the dice roll to a success)
Actually if LR is instantaneous then the saving throw is perminantly modified into a success, regardless of how many times it is rerolled since the rolled value no longer determines if it fails or not.
A save doesn't have a "duration".
I'm arguing that legendary resistance bypasses the roll and sets the value of the save, just like the Stunned condition.
Yes because the mechanics of the spell are much more straightforward and less ambiguous in situations without multiple dice in play.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I see it quite clear. You roll your two dices because you have advantage, choose one of them. Then, in reaction, the caster casts Silvery barbs (since it is after choosing the die that the action has been successful, not before). You repeat that dice and you get the lowest result. I don't see any ambiguity about that.
Where I do see more of a problem is the Legendary Resistance issue. The way I interpret Legendary Resistance, even if you cast Silvery barbs, it would still work. Why? Because Legendary Resistance allows you to decide to pass the roll test. Then as I understand it, it would work as follows. The creature makes its save roll and misses it. So he decides to use his Legendary Resistance. The conjurer casts silvery barbs, but it is useless since the creature continues to pass save due to him using Legendary Resistance. I understand that someone could make another interpretation, but for me RAI it would work like this.
Yes, it does. I linked you the rules for resolving one, which means there's a before, an after, and a during.
Legendary resistance allow you to pass a failed save. So no, silvery barbs can't prevent this. During does not matter here. It applies to a save, not to the specific result of a die. Think about it like this: If you had disadvantage, and you rolled a result lower than required on both dice, would you apply LR? Yes, therefore it does not "overwrite" a die but it is applied to the save check.