Since it's a reaction used when a successful attack roll, ability check or saving throw is being made, it means to me that there is no interaction possible with advantage or disadvantage since it comes after the result is determined and advantage or disadvantage was applied. So if for exemple you have advantage to attack, you roll, select the highest and apply any bonuses or penalties before determining success or failure. So if you roll a 19 and 12, 19 is the rolled used to determine success. At which point Silvery Barbs is cast as a reaction and the attack roll of 19 must be rerolled and use the lower result.
The exemple with Lucky is not appropriate because the feature is used before the roll result is determined.
Since it's a reaction used when a successful attack roll, ability check or saving throw is being made, it means to me that there is no interaction possible with advantage or disadvantage since it comes after the result is determined and advantage or disadvantage was applied. So if for exemple you have advantage to attack, you roll, select the highest and apply any bonuses or penalties before determining success or failure. So if you roll a 19 and 12, 19 is the rolled used to determine success. At which point Silvery Barbs is cast as a reaction and the attack roll of 19 must be rerolled and use the lower result.
The exemple with Lucky is not appropriate because the feature is used before the roll result is determined.
But when you re-roll the 19, you still have advantage. Whatever was originally providing advantage on the roll is still providing it. That means the re-roll is done with Advantage. Same thing if it had Disadvantage.
But when you re-roll the 19, you still have advantage. Whatever was originally providing advantage on the roll is still providing it. That means the re-roll is done with Advantage. Same thing if it had Disadvantage.
It's already been factored in so you don't roll again a third time, nor are you re-using the second roll you previously done that is being rerolled.
Advantage and Disadvantage: When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage, and use the lower roll if you have disadvantage....If multiple situations affect a roll and each one grants advantage or imposes disadvantage on it, you don’t roll more than one additional d20.
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barbs' effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Basically to add further to this is that the PC/NPC that is using Silvery Barbs is basically turning around to the DM/Player when they say X happens with their roll and getting told by that PC/NPC "Nope, I'm using Silvery Barbs, reroll that die and then tell us if you success or not."
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
I am also going to point out this part, which people may have missed.
"* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
That litter asterisk is up next to Reaction in Casting Time. So the use of LR making that a Success would mean they have to reroll that D20 no matter what, since they turned their failed roll into a Successful roll.
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barb's effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
This is my thought as well but I am not certain as its not clearly outlined how LR interacts with the "roll"
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barb's effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
This is my thought as well but I am not certain as its not clearly outlined how LR interacts with the "roll"
I updated my post, the answer is actually in the * next to Reaction.
The LR triggered the Barbs by turning that failure to a Success.
Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.
When a legendary resistance is used to succeed on a saving throw, what does that actually mean? Does the dragon just declare a blanket success on the entire saving throw process from start to finish? Or does it just apply to one specific throw of the die? I am not aware such a distinction has ever needed to be defined previously.
Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.
When a legendary resistance is used to succeed on a saving throw, what does that actually mean? Does the dragon just declare a blanket success on the entire saving throw process from start to finish? Or does it just apply to one specific throw of the die? I am not aware such a distinction has ever needed to be defined previously.
It applies to that specific throw of the dice. So if the dragon rolls and fails, but chooses to success that is the end result of that roll.
On a purely emotional level, I feel like legendary resistance is too special to be undone by a level 1 spell.
This is what it boils down to in terms of practicality. If the RAW is ambiguous, you go with the obvious RAI. Legendary Resistance is a "Success - End of Discussion" button that prevents BBEGs from being completely trivialized by a save or die spell. Overturning that with a level 1 slot would be objectionable by any reasonable standards and would make the game objectively worse.
Legendary Resistance is a success by choice, there isn't a die to reroll so the spell wouldn't apply.
Honestly I can see this viewpoint too so its hard for me to say which way is technically RAW as its not firmly outlined....I certainly wouldn't begrudge a DM who ruled it this way.
Legendary Resistance is a success by choice, there isn't a die to reroll so the spell wouldn't apply.
Legendary Resistance can only happen on a failed saving throw, so there is always a die to reroll. Whether there is any point to rerolling success by fiat is another question entirely.
Legendary Resistance is a success by choice, there isn't a die to reroll so the spell wouldn't apply.
Legendary Resistance can only happen on a failed saving throw, so there is always a die to reroll. Whether there is any point to rerolling success by fiat is another question entirely.
But there wasn't a successful roll. You can't reroll something that was never rolled to begin with.
The trigger only requires a success, not a successful roll. The spell's trigger is "* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw." The actual roll is only necessary to satisfy the use of the word "reroll" in the spell's description. I take issue with that last part, but I will set that aside for the purpose of this example.
Let's say you cast fireball on a dragon, and you have a spell save DC of 16. The dragon must make a DEX saving throw. The dragon rolls a 12* and fails the saving throw. Then the dragon says, "I think I'll use legendary resistance to succeed** on this saving throw."
* This is the saving throw roll that satisfies the word "reroll" in the spell's description ** This is the success that triggers silvery barbs to be cast
The trigger only requires a success, not a successful roll. The spell's trigger is "* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw." The actual roll is only necessary to satisfy the use of the word "reroll" in the spell's description. I take issue with that last part, but I will set that aside for the purpose of this example.
Let's say you cast fireball on a dragon, and you have a spell save DC of 16. The dragon must make a DEX saving throw. The dragon rolls a 12* and fails the saving throw. Then the dragon says, "I think I'll use legendary resistance to succeed** on this saving throw."
* This is the saving throw roll that satisfies the word "reroll" in the spell's description ** This is the success that triggers [Tooltip Not Found] to be cast
Sure, but nothing would happen. They could reroll the already failed check, to get a lower roll, but it doesn't change the outcome at all. It would be a wasted spell slot. I guess if you REALLY needed one person to have advantage on their next d20 roll, then sure. But over all, we are talking about a non issue. The Legendary Resistance is completely unaffected by this spell.
That's what I was talking about earlier. If a legendary resistance applies to that entire instance of the saving throw process, then you're right. One LR is used, and the dragon is good to go until something else causes an unrelated saving throw. I personally feel that SHOULD be how it works and as far as I can tell, RAW never describes a successful saving throw any other way. There is another interpretation where the silvery barbs come along after the LR is applied and says, "Not so fast. Now you have to reroll that failure and if you don't make the DC you either fail despite previously using your LR or have to use a second LR to guarantee success."
That's what I was talking about earlier. If a legendary resistance applies to that entire instance of the saving throw process, then you're right. One LR is used, and the dragon is good to go until something else causes an unrelated saving throw. I personally feel that SHOULD be how it works and as far as I can tell, RAW never describes a successful saving throw any other way. There is another interpretation where the silvery barbs come along after the LR is applied and says, "Not so fast. Now you have to reroll that failure and if you don't make the DC you either fail despite previously using your LR or have to use a second LR to guarantee success."
I would have to say that the second interpretation is illogical.
Since it's a reaction used when a successful attack roll, ability check or saving throw is being made, it means to me that there is no interaction possible with advantage or disadvantage since it comes after the result is determined and advantage or disadvantage was applied. So if for exemple you have advantage to attack, you roll, select the highest and apply any bonuses or penalties before determining success or failure. So if you roll a 19 and 12, 19 is the rolled used to determine success. At which point Silvery Barbs is cast as a reaction and the attack roll of 19 must be rerolled and use the lower result.
The exemple with Lucky is not appropriate because the feature is used before the roll result is determined.
But when you re-roll the 19, you still have advantage. Whatever was originally providing advantage on the roll is still providing it. That means the re-roll is done with Advantage. Same thing if it had Disadvantage.
It's already been factored in so you don't roll again a third time, nor are you re-using the second roll you previously done that is being rerolled.
They would have to use another instance of LR.
The trigger for Silvery Barbs doesnt take affect until the failure/success has been declared by the DM or player. So if the DM, or player, chooses to use LR and declare a success on the roll, no matter the roll, they immediately trigger the Silvery Barbs' effect causing them to have to reroll that D20. Upto them if they want to then waste another LR on that roll, depends on how life and death the situation is. Hold Person however is a bad example since most creatures that have LR arent classed as Humanoid
Basically to add further to this is that the PC/NPC that is using Silvery Barbs is basically turning around to the DM/Player when they say X happens with their roll and getting told by that PC/NPC "Nope, I'm using Silvery Barbs, reroll that die and then tell us if you success or not."
Another example of such is the Flash of Genius ability of an Artificer, yes I suspect this will come up so bringing it to the fore now. They can use their Reaction to add their Int Mod to any ability check or saving throw. Now, if they used that reaction to aid the roll of the party Wizard's Counterspell that was just cast to stop the casting of an enemy's spell and someone imposes Silvery Barbs after that Artificer has declared their reaction, they cant apply Flash of Genius to that roll. Now before you jump in and say they could, think of the wording of Flash of Genius "...you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll." Since the Flash was added to the roll before Silvery Barbs was cast that bonus is lost from Flash on that wasted roll.
I am also going to point out this part, which people may have missed.
"* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw"
That litter asterisk is up next to Reaction in Casting Time. So the use of LR making that a Success would mean they have to reroll that D20 no matter what, since they turned their failed roll into a Successful roll.
This is my thought as well but I am not certain as its not clearly outlined how LR interacts with the "roll"
I updated my post, the answer is actually in the * next to Reaction.
The LR triggered the Barbs by turning that failure to a Success.
Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the dragon fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.
When a legendary resistance is used to succeed on a saving throw, what does that actually mean? Does the dragon just declare a blanket success on the entire saving throw process from start to finish? Or does it just apply to one specific throw of the die? I am not aware such a distinction has ever needed to be defined previously.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It means that despite what was te die roll result, it is now successful. I'd treat that like automatic success for attack roll.
It applies to that specific throw of the dice. So if the dragon rolls and fails, but chooses to success that is the end result of that roll.
This is what it boils down to in terms of practicality. If the RAW is ambiguous, you go with the obvious RAI. Legendary Resistance is a "Success - End of Discussion" button that prevents BBEGs from being completely trivialized by a save or die spell. Overturning that with a level 1 slot would be objectionable by any reasonable standards and would make the game objectively worse.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I will definitely be ruling that attacks with advantage have advantage on the reroll (and same for disadvantage).
LRs also shouldn’t be undone by this spell. They supersede the roll, it’s still the same saving throw.
Legendary Resistance is a success by choice, there isn't a die to reroll so the spell wouldn't apply.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Honestly I can see this viewpoint too so its hard for me to say which way is technically RAW as its not firmly outlined....I certainly wouldn't begrudge a DM who ruled it this way.
Legendary Resistance can only happen on a failed saving throw, so there is always a die to reroll. Whether there is any point to rerolling success by fiat is another question entirely.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
But there wasn't a successful roll. You can't reroll something that was never rolled to begin with.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
The trigger only requires a success, not a successful roll. The spell's trigger is "* - which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw." The actual roll is only necessary to satisfy the use of the word "reroll" in the spell's description. I take issue with that last part, but I will set that aside for the purpose of this example.
Let's say you cast fireball on a dragon, and you have a spell save DC of 16. The dragon must make a DEX saving throw. The dragon rolls a 12* and fails the saving throw. Then the dragon says, "I think I'll use legendary resistance to succeed** on this saving throw."
* This is the saving throw roll that satisfies the word "reroll" in the spell's description
** This is the success that triggers silvery barbs to be cast
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sure, but nothing would happen. They could reroll the already failed check, to get a lower roll, but it doesn't change the outcome at all. It would be a wasted spell slot. I guess if you REALLY needed one person to have advantage on their next d20 roll, then sure. But over all, we are talking about a non issue. The Legendary Resistance is completely unaffected by this spell.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
That's what I was talking about earlier. If a legendary resistance applies to that entire instance of the saving throw process, then you're right. One LR is used, and the dragon is good to go until something else causes an unrelated saving throw. I personally feel that SHOULD be how it works and as far as I can tell, RAW never describes a successful saving throw any other way. There is another interpretation where the silvery barbs come along after the LR is applied and says, "Not so fast. Now you have to reroll that failure and if you don't make the DC you either fail despite previously using your LR or have to use a second LR to guarantee success."
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would have to say that the second interpretation is illogical.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Treantmonk had a video reacting to Indestructoboy’s video on how it should be banned for the reason you say. https://youtube.com/watch?v=7pNGdNp_hGg&feature=share
he has a different view that isn’t a “legendary resistance bomb” take on it.