Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a failure.
Adam uses Legendary Resistance, so he succeeds on the save.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
The answer is no. The roll failed and rerolling it and getting a lower roll is still a failure. What makes it a success is the Legendary Resistance the number that appears on the dice no longer matters.
Adam rolls a save.
Adam checks to see if the save is a failure or success.
Adam determines it was a success.
Bob uses Silvery Barbs.
Adam rolls the save again.
Do we go back to 2 or not?
The answer is yes because the roll was a success and can now become a failure. In this case the die roll is what results in the success.
As I see it this is the answer. Once LR is used the numbers rolled that resulted in the failure which then prompted the use of LR become irrelevant. So even if you were to use Silvery Barbs to prompt a reroll, the roll was already a failure, so rolling lower makes no difference, and it's completely irrelevant because LR turns the failure into a success.
If WotC does come out with a statement in response to the considerable discussion this spell has inspired online, I think it will be to clarify that the "success state" of invoking a Legendary Resistance applies to the entirety of the saving throw process, thereby making the details of it triggering a reroll moot.
If WotC does come out with a statement in response to the considerable discussion this spell has inspired online, I think it will be to clarify that the "success state" of invoking a Legendary Resistance applies to the entirety of the saving throw process, thereby making the details of it triggering a reroll moot.
I think the discussion arises because there are people that no undestand what Legendary Resistance do. Legendary Resistance turn a failed save into a successful one, so there's no place for Silvery barbs. It's pretty clear to me.
Player 1 - Help against NPC1 to give Player 2 advantage on the attack roll
Player 2 - Attack NPC1 with advantage. Rolls a critical hit.
NPC 2 - Casts silvery barbs as a reaction to force a reroll of the critical hit, resulting in a miss
Player 1 - That sucks. Have my inspiration and make your silvery barbs roll with advantage.
Player 2 Rolls the advantage die on the silvery barbs reroll, resulting in a hit.
As DM, I would not allow Player 1 to share his inspiration with player 2. This is the wording:
"Additionally, if you have inspiration, you can reward another player for good roleplaying, clever thinking, or simply doing something exciting in the game. When another player character does something that really contributes to the story in a fun and interesting way, you can give up your inspiration to give that character inspiration."
This is quite ambiguous, but i don't think the player 2 qualify for this. On the other hand, you need to do this when player 2 does somenthing. So i think you can't do this while the attack is resolving.
Player 1 - Help against NPC1 to give Player 2 advantage on the attack roll
Player 2 - Attack NPC1 with advantage. Rolls a critical hit.
NPC 2 - Casts silvery barbs as a reaction to force a reroll of the critical hit, resulting in a miss
Player 1 - That sucks. Have my inspiration and make your silvery barbs roll with advantage.
Player 2 Rolls the advantage die on the silvery barbs reroll, resulting in a hit.
Should there be a weird case like this, Silvery Barbs would still do it's job by likely turning a Nat 20 into just a normal hit. After all you would still apply the lowest outcome of two rolls with advantage.
Player 1 - Help against NPC1 to give Player 2 advantage on the attack roll
Player 2 - Attack NPC1 with advantage. Rolls a critical hit.
NPC 2 - Casts silvery barbs as a reaction to force a reroll of the critical hit, resulting in a miss
Player 1 - That sucks. Have my inspiration and make your silvery barbs roll with advantage.
Player 2 Rolls the advantage die on the silvery barbs reroll, resulting in a hit.
Should there be a weird case like this, Silvery Barbs would still do it's job by likely turning a Nat 20 into just a normal hit. After all you would still apply the lowest outcome of two rolls with advantage.
I don't think so, because just like the initial example I gave on the first post is handled by resolving advantage and then applying silvery barbs, this situation would be resolved by applying advantage to the silvery barbs roll and then comparing its result with the result of the initial advantage roll.
Example:
Attack with advantage: rolls a 5 and a 15 = 15 is the result, and it hits
Silvery barbs forces a reroll
Inspiration on the reroll grants advantage so silvery barbs result is an 8 and a 17 = 17 is the result
Final result because of silvery barbs would be the lower of 15 and 17 = 15, which still hits.
EDIT: Or maybe that is what you said, and I misunderstood you. If so, my bad.
I’m not sure that, RAW, rerolling a die counts as “making a check,” so I think you couldn’t give yourself advantage on the reroll.
And certainly in this example, you can’t give advantage after the die has already rolled and failed.
I agree that rerolling a die, as a phrase taken without context, does not automatically count as making a check. But in the case of silvery barbs, the die that is rerolled had to have originally been a roll that made an attack, a check, or a saving throw, so the criteria still lines up correctly. Setting aside the "when" portion of the timing, I do believe someone could say, "Hey, before you throw that die, I'm giving you my inspiration RIGHT NOW so make that ability/attack/saving throw reroll with advantage."
Player 1 - Help against NPC1 to give Player 2 advantage on the attack roll
Player 2 - Attack NPC1 with advantage. Rolls a critical hit.
NPC 2 - Casts silvery barbs as a reaction to force a reroll of the critical hit, resulting in a miss
Player 1 - That sucks. Have my inspiration and make your silvery barbs roll with advantage.
Player 2 Rolls the advantage die on the silvery barbs reroll, resulting in a hit.
Should there be a weird case like this, Silvery Barbs would still do it's job by likely turning a Nat 20 into just a normal hit. After all you would still apply the lowest outcome of two rolls with advantage.
I don't think so, because just like the initial example I gave on the first post is handled by resolving advantage and then applying silvery barbs, this situation would be resolved by applying advantage to the silvery barbs roll and then comparing its result with the result of the initial advantage roll.
Example:
Attack with advantage: rolls a 5 and a 15 = 15 is the result, and it hits
Silvery barbs forces a reroll
Inspiration on the reroll grants advantage so silvery barbs result is an 8 and a 17 = 17 is the result
Final result because of silvery barbs would be the lower of 15 and 17 = 15, which still hits.
EDIT: Or maybe that is what you said, and I misunderstood you. If so, my bad.
I’m not sure that, RAW, rerolling a die counts as “making a check,” so I think you couldn’t give yourself advantage on the reroll.
And certainly in this example, you can’t give advantage after the die has already rolled and failed.
I agree that rerolling a die, as a phrase taken without context, does not automatically count as making a check. But in the case of silvery barbs, the die that is rerolled had to have originally been a roll that made an attack, a check, or a saving throw, so the criteria still lines up correctly. Setting aside the "when" portion of the timing, I do believe someone could say, "Hey, before you throw that die, I'm giving you my inspiration RIGHT NOW so make that ability/attack/saving throw reroll with advantage."
Attack with advantage: rolls a 5 and a 15 = 15 is the result, and it hits
Silvery barbs forces a reroll
Inspiration on the reroll grants advantage so silvery barbs result is an 8 and a 17 = 17 is the result
Final result because of silvery barbs would be the lower of 15 and 17 = 15, which still hits.
But you can't do that. You only can use inspiration in attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. Here, you are using the inspiration in a reroll, which is neither of those cases. You can spend your inspiration in your attack, but not in the reroll that Silvery barbs forces you to do. Inspiration doesn't give you advantage on any roll, just in attack roll, saving throw or ability check. You have already done your attack roll and now you are rerolling a die, which is not an attack roll. I do not know if I explain myself.
A reroll of an attack roll is still an attack roll. You look at the number on the die. You add your attack modifier. You compare the result to the target's AC to see if you hit them. That's an attack.
A reroll of an attack roll is still an attack roll. You look at the number on the die. You add your attack modifier. You compare the result to the target's AC to see if you hit them. That's an attack.
The rules don’t spell it out that I’m aware of, but just as a matter of plain English and straightforward interpretation, “re-rolling a die” is absolutely not the same thing as “making a check again.” The check has already been made and can no longer be altered, unless a rule specifically says so (for example, a spell that requires that the die be rolled again).
I don’t think your ruling here is necessarily unreasonable, but I do think it’s not RAW, and it’s not one I would make at my own table.
As far as I know, RAW make no distinction at all between a reroll and the initial roll. As far as I can see, there is no distinction to be made between the two.
A reroll of an attack roll is still an attack roll. You look at the number on the die. You add your attack modifier. You compare the result to the target's AC to see if you hit them. That's an attack.
No, it's not. It is quite obvious that they are two different things. But, if that doesn't convince you, I hope this does: The rule tells you that you must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. How do you want to reroll that dice with advantage? It doesn't make sense. You take the die and roll it again. There is no possible advantage or disadvantage here.
No, it's not. It is quite obvious that they are two different things. But, if that doesn't convince you, I hope this does: The rule tells you that you must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. How do you want to reroll that dice with advantage? It doesn't make sense. You take the die and roll it again. There is no possible advantage or disadvantage here.
It isn't obvious to me. In fact, that seems counterintuitive to me. I have laid out some things that an attack reroll shares with an attack roll. Can you tell me some things about how an attack reroll works that are different from an attack roll?
To answer your second question, I see it as a nested operation. Let's say someone gives you advantage on your initial attack roll because of the help action. To get your initial result, you resolve advantage, but you still end up with one single result, right? Let's call that result R1. Then you apply silvery barbs to that result to force it to be rerolled. Let's call the reroll R2. So silvery barbs forces you to make R2 and compare it to R1 and take the lower of the two. If you use DM inspiration to give yourself advantage on R2, you still end up with a single result for R2. Then you compare that to R1 and take the lower of the two.
Let me pose my position differently. Let's say I was under the benefit of the bless spell. I get to add 1d4 to my attack rolls. If silvery barbs forced me to reroll my attack, would you still let me add 1d4 to the reroll? If the answer is, "No, because the reroll is not an attack roll" then why should I be able to add my attack bonus to it? Surely you wouldn't deny me that on the reroll, right?
No, it's not. It is quite obvious that they are two different things. But, if that doesn't convince you, I hope this does: The rule tells you that you must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. How do you want to reroll that dice with advantage? It doesn't make sense. You take the die and roll it again. There is no possible advantage or disadvantage here.
It isn't obvious to me. In fact, that seems counterintuitive to me. I have laid out some things that an attack reroll shares with an attack roll. Can you tell me some things about how an attack reroll works that are different from an attack roll?
To answer your second question, I see it as a nested operation. Let's say someone gives you advantage on your initial attack roll because of the help action. To get your initial result, you resolve advantage, but you still end up with one single result, right? Let's call that result R1. Then you apply silvery barbs to that result to force it to be rerolled. Let's call the reroll R2. So silvery barbs forces you to make R2 and compare it to R1 and take the lower of the two. If you use DM inspiration to give yourself advantage on R2, you still end up with a single result for R2. Then you compare that to R1 and take the lower of the two.
Let me pose my position differently. Let's say I was under the benefit of the bless spell. I get to add 1d4 to my attack rolls. If silvery barbs forced me to reroll my attack, would you still let me add 1d4 to the reroll? If the answer is, "No, because the reroll is not an attack roll" then why should I be able to add my attack bonus to it? Surely you wouldn't deny me that on the reroll, right?
No, I would not let you add 1d4 to the reroll, because you add 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws, not arbitrary d20 rolls. I also wouldn’t let you add your attack bonus to it, because the attack bonus was already added when the check was actually made. You don’t get to do that twice. All that’s happening is that one number (the d20 roll) is being retroactively changed in an equation that otherwise has already been solved. You’re not solving the equation from scratch again. That’s the intuitive and straightforward way to interpret “roll the d20 again.” It doesn’t say “make the check/attack/save again” because that’s not what’s happening.
No, I would not let you add 1d4 to the reroll, because you add 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws, not arbitrary d20 rolls. I also wouldn’t let you add your attack bonus to it, because the attack bonus was already added when the check was actually made. You don’t get to do that twice. All that’s happening is that one number (the d20 roll) is being retroactively changed in an equation that otherwise has already been solved. You’re not solving the equation from scratch again. That’s the intuitive and straightforward way to interpret “roll the d20 again.” It doesn’t say “make the check/attack/save again” because that’s not what’s happening.
I'm not talking about doubling bonuses. If a reroll is its own special kind of roll, why should I be able to add any modifier to it at all?
I make an attack roll. The number on the die is a 15. I have a +7 attack modifier. My result is a 22.
I reroll the d20. The new roll is a reroll, not an attack roll so i don't get to add my attack modifier. The number on the die is a 15. My result is a 15.
Silvery barbs compares the 22 result and a 15 result and takes the lower number. So my result is 15.
That is so absurd that I don't think that is what you are suggesting. But is looks like what you are suggesting.
No, I would not let you add 1d4 to the reroll, because you add 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws, not arbitrary d20 rolls. I also wouldn’t let you add your attack bonus to it, because the attack bonus was already added when the check was actually made. You don’t get to do that twice. All that’s happening is that one number (the d20 roll) is being retroactively changed in an equation that otherwise has already been solved. You’re not solving the equation from scratch again. That’s the intuitive and straightforward way to interpret “roll the d20 again.” It doesn’t say “make the check/attack/save again” because that’s not what’s happening.
I'm not talking about doubling bonuses. If a reroll is its own special kind of roll, why should I be able to add any modifier to it at all?
I make an attack roll. The number on the die is a 15. I have a +7 attack modifier. My result is a 22.
I reroll the d20. The new roll is a reroll, not an attack roll so i don't get to add my attack modifier. The number on the die is a 15. My result is a 15.
Silvery barbs compares the 22 result and a 15 result and takes the lower number. So my result is 15.
That is so absurd that I don't think that is what you are suggesting. But is looks like what you are suggesting.
Not at all. I was very clear: you are replacing one number in an equation that has otherwise already been solved.
It doesn’t matter what your bonus is or what your 1d4 was or anything like that. All that matters is the die roll and the total. You rolled a 15 and got a 22, fantastic. Someone silvery barbs you and you have to reroll, and you get a 5 on the new die. You subtract 15 from 22 and then you add 5. That’s how you use the new die roll. You don’t get to roll 1d4 again, you don’t get to add bonuses again. All of that has already happened. The only number you get to do anything with is the number on the die. You remove the old die and add the new one. That’s it. That’s all the spell says you get to do (or have to do).
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As I see it this is the answer. Once LR is used the numbers rolled that resulted in the failure which then prompted the use of LR become irrelevant. So even if you were to use Silvery Barbs to prompt a reroll, the roll was already a failure, so rolling lower makes no difference, and it's completely irrelevant because LR turns the failure into a success.
If WotC does come out with a statement in response to the considerable discussion this spell has inspired online, I think it will be to clarify that the "success state" of invoking a Legendary Resistance applies to the entirety of the saving throw process, thereby making the details of it triggering a reroll moot.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think the discussion arises because there are people that no undestand what Legendary Resistance do. Legendary Resistance turn a failed save into a successful one, so there's no place for Silvery barbs. It's pretty clear to me.
I just thought of another fun one.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As DM, I would not allow Player 1 to share his inspiration with player 2. This is the wording:
"Additionally, if you have inspiration, you can reward another player for good roleplaying, clever thinking, or simply doing something exciting in the game. When another player character does something that really contributes to the story in a fun and interesting way, you can give up your inspiration to give that character inspiration."
This is quite ambiguous, but i don't think the player 2 qualify for this. On the other hand, you need to do this when player 2 does somenthing. So i think you can't do this while the attack is resolving.
Should there be a weird case like this, Silvery Barbs would still do it's job by likely turning a Nat 20 into just a normal hit. After all you would still apply the lowest outcome of two rolls with advantage.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I’m not sure that, RAW, rerolling a die counts as “making a check,” so I think you couldn’t give yourself advantage on the reroll.
And certainly in this example, you can’t give advantage after the die has already rolled and failed.
True, I am mostly addressing the idea of some how getting advantage on the Barbs reroll.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I don't think so, because just like the initial example I gave on the first post is handled by resolving advantage and then applying silvery barbs, this situation would be resolved by applying advantage to the silvery barbs roll and then comparing its result with the result of the initial advantage roll.
Example:
EDIT: Or maybe that is what you said, and I misunderstood you. If so, my bad.
I agree that rerolling a die, as a phrase taken without context, does not automatically count as making a check. But in the case of silvery barbs, the die that is rerolled had to have originally been a roll that made an attack, a check, or a saving throw, so the criteria still lines up correctly. Setting aside the "when" portion of the timing, I do believe someone could say, "Hey, before you throw that die, I'm giving you my inspiration RIGHT NOW so make that ability/attack/saving throw reroll with advantage."
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, that is what I was trying to say.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah,,, not in my game. Player 2 already rolled with advantage.
But you can't do that. You only can use inspiration in attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. Here, you are using the inspiration in a reroll, which is neither of those cases. You can spend your inspiration in your attack, but not in the reroll that Silvery barbs forces you to do. Inspiration doesn't give you advantage on any roll, just in attack roll, saving throw or ability check. You have already done your attack roll and now you are rerolling a die, which is not an attack roll. I do not know if I explain myself.
A reroll of an attack roll is still an attack roll. You look at the number on the die. You add your attack modifier. You compare the result to the target's AC to see if you hit them. That's an attack.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The rules don’t spell it out that I’m aware of, but just as a matter of plain English and straightforward interpretation, “re-rolling a die” is absolutely not the same thing as “making a check again.” The check has already been made and can no longer be altered, unless a rule specifically says so (for example, a spell that requires that the die be rolled again).
I don’t think your ruling here is necessarily unreasonable, but I do think it’s not RAW, and it’s not one I would make at my own table.
As far as I know, RAW make no distinction at all between a reroll and the initial roll. As far as I can see, there is no distinction to be made between the two.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, it's not. It is quite obvious that they are two different things. But, if that doesn't convince you, I hope this does: The rule tells you that you must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll. How do you want to reroll that dice with advantage? It doesn't make sense. You take the die and roll it again. There is no possible advantage or disadvantage here.
It isn't obvious to me. In fact, that seems counterintuitive to me. I have laid out some things that an attack reroll shares with an attack roll. Can you tell me some things about how an attack reroll works that are different from an attack roll?
To answer your second question, I see it as a nested operation. Let's say someone gives you advantage on your initial attack roll because of the help action. To get your initial result, you resolve advantage, but you still end up with one single result, right? Let's call that result R1. Then you apply silvery barbs to that result to force it to be rerolled. Let's call the reroll R2. So silvery barbs forces you to make R2 and compare it to R1 and take the lower of the two. If you use DM inspiration to give yourself advantage on R2, you still end up with a single result for R2. Then you compare that to R1 and take the lower of the two.
Let me pose my position differently. Let's say I was under the benefit of the bless spell. I get to add 1d4 to my attack rolls. If silvery barbs forced me to reroll my attack, would you still let me add 1d4 to the reroll? If the answer is, "No, because the reroll is not an attack roll" then why should I be able to add my attack bonus to it? Surely you wouldn't deny me that on the reroll, right?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, I would not let you add 1d4 to the reroll, because you add 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws, not arbitrary d20 rolls. I also wouldn’t let you add your attack bonus to it, because the attack bonus was already added when the check was actually made. You don’t get to do that twice. All that’s happening is that one number (the d20 roll) is being retroactively changed in an equation that otherwise has already been solved. You’re not solving the equation from scratch again. That’s the intuitive and straightforward way to interpret “roll the d20 again.” It doesn’t say “make the check/attack/save again” because that’s not what’s happening.
I'm not talking about doubling bonuses. If a reroll is its own special kind of roll, why should I be able to add any modifier to it at all?
That is so absurd that I don't think that is what you are suggesting. But is looks like what you are suggesting.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not at all. I was very clear: you are replacing one number in an equation that has otherwise already been solved.
It doesn’t matter what your bonus is or what your 1d4 was or anything like that. All that matters is the die roll and the total. You rolled a 15 and got a 22, fantastic. Someone silvery barbs you and you have to reroll, and you get a 5 on the new die. You subtract 15 from 22 and then you add 5. That’s how you use the new die roll. You don’t get to roll 1d4 again, you don’t get to add bonuses again. All of that has already happened. The only number you get to do anything with is the number on the die. You remove the old die and add the new one. That’s it. That’s all the spell says you get to do (or have to do).