The interaction between the new silvery barbs spell and advantage or disadvantage is going to get a lot of discussion, especially for a 1st level spell. How do you think it is intended to work? Here is the relevant text from the first part of the spell: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
For my part, I think it is meant to work like halfling luck, and we can take guidance from the description of advantage in the PHB: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
I haven't read the full description so there might be some detail I'm missing but from what you've posted it seems fairly straightforward, but not an option you gave.
Assuming you force a re-roll of dice 1 then it would be: The lowest of dice 1 and the re-roll would be compared to dice 2 and for advantage pick the highest, for disadvantage pick the lowest.
Possible Reroll #1: 8, 15 (Uses the 15 to hit the player) Possible Reroll #2: 18, 15 (Uses the 18 to hit the player)
In this interpretation, "use the lower roll" means that it can not be ignored when determining the outcome of the roll. Advantage "uses" both rolls, but the higher value of the roll supersedes it regardless.
The end result is equivalent to "Roll 3 dice and take the median value", which is interesting...
This seems like a good option for a Ranged Rogue with magical aptitude. Freebie sneak attack when it might normally not be available.
You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
So reading the first part of the spell is doesn't give disadvantage. It has a specific trigger event that has to happen aka the roll and then forces them to roll a dice and use the lower.|
So at least how I see this is
I attack with advantage I roll a 18 and a 5 - outcome is I got an 18 Now Bob the NPC then cast this on me as there reaction and I would then roll the last dice as per the spell and say get a 12 so in the end that 18 would then be a 12 cause of the spell. Now this is my interpretation, take it with a grain of salt.
I haven't read the full description so there might be some detail I'm missing but from what you've posted it seems fairly straightforward, but not an option you gave.
Assuming you force a re-roll of dice 1 then it would be: The lowest of dice 1 and the re-roll would be compared to dice 2 and for advantage pick the highest, for disadvantage pick the lowest.
That's literally the second option in the poll.
It's also what agrees most with the Lucky example.
The interaction between the new silvery barbs spell and advantage or disadvantage is going to get a lot of discussion, especially for a 1st level spell. How do you think it is intended to work? Here is the relevant text from the first part of the spell: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
For my part, I think it is meant to work like halfling luck, and we can take guidance from the description of advantage in the PHB: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
Silvery Barbs doesn't let you re-roll the d20 prior to calculating success or failure - it's a reaction in response to success or failure being determined as success. That is, in order for it to be legal to cast the spell, the roller must have already rolled with advantage, and the entire roll is over and done with. Then you cast the spell, and the roller must roll again. I had difficulty understanding the grammar of your offered options for the poll - both options 2 and 3 seem to apply, although both have odd wording. To be explicit, when you re-roll due to Silvery Barbs, nothing's changed from when you first rolled it - that is, the spell rewinds time, in the same way a Half-Orc can be damaged to 0 hit points, then rewind time to be at 1 hit point. That means if you had advantage on the roll, you still do - it's the same roll, you're just doing it again. So for your question, the re-roll is also done with advantage.
The interaction between the new silvery barbs spell and advantage or disadvantage is going to get a lot of discussion, especially for a 1st level spell. How do you think it is intended to work? Here is the relevant text from the first part of the spell: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
For my part, I think it is meant to work like halfling luck, and we can take guidance from the description of advantage in the PHB: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
Silvery Barbs doesn't let you re-roll the d20 prior to calculating success or failure - it's a reaction in response to success or failure being determined as success. That is, in order for it to be legal to cast the spell, the roller must have already rolled with advantage, and the entire roll is over and done with. Then you cast the spell, and the roller must roll again. I had difficulty understanding the grammar of your offered options for the poll - both options 2 and 3 seem to apply, although both have odd wording. To be explicit, when you re-roll due to Silvery Barbs, nothing's changed from when you first rolled it - that is, the spell rewinds time, in the same way a Half-Orc can be damaged to 0 hit points, then rewind time to be at 1 hit point. That means if you had advantage on the roll, you still do - it's the same roll, you're just doing it again. So for your question, the re-roll is also done with advantage.
Mmm, incorrect conclusion, but that's a good point about the reaction trigger; I only read the spell's description with the mouseover tooltip, so I missed that the trigger is explicitly a success.
Since the roll is over and done with, the target just rolls one d20 and chooses the lower between that number and what they originally rolled. Obviously they don't "still have advantage." The spell text says that they re-roll the die, not that they re-roll the check. Once the target has the initial success, one of the d20s has been discarded, and only one remains both to re-roll and to create the final result.
If the BBEG succeeds on a saving throw, it doesn't need to burn a Legendary resistance, so the more you can make the BBEG fail saving throws, the more likely it is to burn resources.
For the cost of a 1st level reaction, you can turn a success into a maybe.
If the BBEG succeeds on a saving throw, it doesn't need to burn a Legendary resistance, so the more you can make the BBEG fail saving throws, the more likely it is to burn resources.
For the cost of a 1st level reaction, you can turn a success into a maybe.
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
That would be the correct reading of it.
Basically the spell works by distracting the attacker, whether they have ADV or DISADV on their rolls. Those rules dont actually apply to the spell, ONLY the end result of the spell, that being the result on the die that was rolled. Even if you are rolling two dice on those rolls, you only pick one of those die for the result, whether it be the higher or the lower value one.
Once that die is decided you are then effectively imposing DISADV on that die by making them reroll that D20, it doesnt matter what they had prior to that since that roll was completed the moment those dice stopped moving.
PS: Sucks if the DM rolled with DISADV and rolled two 20s and you come along with that spell and make them reroll that result and they get a 1.
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
This makes the most sense to me as well, and I think this is a better and simpler explanation than my original understanding.
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
Agree also, this person is way better with words then I am.....
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
The crux of that discussion for me hinges on whether the use of legendary resistance (LR) constitutes a "roll" that can be rerolled.
If you consider legendary resistance and careful metamagic (CM) to jump straight to SUCCESS then it would indeed trigger silvery barbs, but there is no roll to reroll and that part of the spell would be disregarded.
If you consider the success from LR or CM to represent an assumed successful roll, then things get trickier and silvery barbs might apply to the situation.
On a purely emotional level, I feel like legendary resistance is too special to be undone by a level 1 spell. Whether the written rules support this position is being debated and not authoritatively or definitively answered at the moment. I will say that the vast majority of people I have discussed it take the former position, and I am somewhat in the minority by taking the latter.
The crux of that discussion for me hinges on whether the use of legendary resistance (LR) constitutes a "roll" that can be rerolled.
If you consider legendary resistance and careful metamagic (CM) to jump straight to SUCCESS then it would indeed trigger silvery barbs, but there is no roll to reroll and that part of the spell would be disregarded.
If you consider the success from LR or CM to represent an assumed successful roll, then things get trickier and silvery barbs might apply to the situation.
On a purely emotional level, I feel like legendary resistance is too special to be undone by a level 1 spell. Whether the written rules support this position is being debated and not authoritatively or definitively answered at the moment. I will say that the vast majority of people I have discussed it take the former position, and I am somewhat in the minority by taking the latter.
There is a lack of information on what exactly LR does to the "roll"....does it simply make a roll of 10 a success? Or is it just a success without a roll?
I go with the first simply because you have to fail the save to actually make LR apply....you can't just say it succeeds...thus you are basing it off a roll and simply turning that roll into a success.
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The interaction between the new silvery barbs spell and advantage or disadvantage is going to get a lot of discussion, especially for a 1st level spell. How do you think it is intended to work? Here is the relevant text from the first part of the spell: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
For my part, I think it is meant to work like halfling luck, and we can take guidance from the description of advantage in the PHB: When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I haven't read the full description so there might be some detail I'm missing but from what you've posted it seems fairly straightforward, but not an option you gave.
Assuming you force a re-roll of dice 1 then it would be:
The lowest of dice 1 and the re-roll would be compared to dice 2 and for advantage pick the highest, for disadvantage pick the lowest.
This is my interpretation:
Target rolls: 20, 15 (Uses the 20 to hit the player)
Player casts Silvery Barbs
Possible Reroll #1: 8, 15 (Uses the 15 to hit the player)
Possible Reroll #2: 18, 15 (Uses the 18 to hit the player)
In this interpretation, "use the lower roll" means that it can not be ignored when determining the outcome of the roll. Advantage "uses" both rolls, but the higher value of the roll supersedes it regardless.
The end result is equivalent to "Roll 3 dice and take the median value", which is interesting...
This seems like a good option for a Ranged Rogue with magical aptitude. Freebie sneak attack when it might normally not be available.
In a discussion with another DM, it was realized that his spell is perfect for Legendary Resistance Fishing.
I think on that basis alone, I'd have a hard time allowing it into my games.
You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
So reading the first part of the spell is doesn't give disadvantage. It has a specific trigger event that has to happen aka the roll and then forces them to roll a dice and use the lower.|
So at least how I see this is
I attack with advantage I roll a 18 and a 5 - outcome is I got an 18
Now Bob the NPC then cast this on me as there reaction and I would then roll the last dice as per the spell and say get a 12 so in the end that 18 would then be a 12 cause of the spell. Now this is my interpretation, take it with a grain of salt.
That's literally the second option in the poll.
It's also what agrees most with the Lucky example.
Silvery Barbs doesn't let you re-roll the d20 prior to calculating success or failure - it's a reaction in response to success or failure being determined as success. That is, in order for it to be legal to cast the spell, the roller must have already rolled with advantage, and the entire roll is over and done with. Then you cast the spell, and the roller must roll again. I had difficulty understanding the grammar of your offered options for the poll - both options 2 and 3 seem to apply, although both have odd wording. To be explicit, when you re-roll due to Silvery Barbs, nothing's changed from when you first rolled it - that is, the spell rewinds time, in the same way a Half-Orc can be damaged to 0 hit points, then rewind time to be at 1 hit point. That means if you had advantage on the roll, you still do - it's the same roll, you're just doing it again. So for your question, the re-roll is also done with advantage.
Mmm, incorrect conclusion, but that's a good point about the reaction trigger; I only read the spell's description with the mouseover tooltip, so I missed that the trigger is explicitly a success.
Since the roll is over and done with, the target just rolls one d20 and chooses the lower between that number and what they originally rolled. Obviously they don't "still have advantage." The spell text says that they re-roll the die, not that they re-roll the check. Once the target has the initial success, one of the d20s has been discarded, and only one remains both to re-roll and to create the final result.
So, option 3.
Would it though? Legendary Resistance is a success, but there isn't a d20 to reroll.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If the BBEG succeeds on a saving throw, it doesn't need to burn a Legendary resistance, so the more you can make the BBEG fail saving throws, the more likely it is to burn resources.
For the cost of a 1st level reaction, you can turn a success into a maybe.
Oh, I see what your saying now.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Reading the spell and the rules on advantage/disadvantage, my rationale is as follows:
Success/failure when rolling with advantage/disadvantage isn't determined until after you pick the d20 you're applying to the roll. So if I make a roll with result of 19 and 12 with advantage, I haven't succeeded/failed until the die I'm using has been determined. With advantage, the 19 is the die that's used to determine success. It is at this point I have succeeded and thus the point at which silvery barbs triggers. As such, silvery barbs will force a re-roll on the 19 which even if it rolls lower than 12, will apply that result because advantage has already been resolved.
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Very possible that I misunderstood how option 2 was worded (is the 2 "result" the same thing or different ones?).
But I agree with Memnosyne, he described it a lot better than I managed to do.
That would be the correct reading of it.
Basically the spell works by distracting the attacker, whether they have ADV or DISADV on their rolls. Those rules dont actually apply to the spell, ONLY the end result of the spell, that being the result on the die that was rolled. Even if you are rolling two dice on those rolls, you only pick one of those die for the result, whether it be the higher or the lower value one.
Once that die is decided you are then effectively imposing DISADV on that die by making them reroll that D20, it doesnt matter what they had prior to that since that roll was completed the moment those dice stopped moving.
PS: Sucks if the DM rolled with DISADV and rolled two 20s and you come along with that spell and make them reroll that result and they get a 1.
This makes the most sense to me as well, and I think this is a better and simpler explanation than my original understanding.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree with this interpretation.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Agree also, this person is way better with words then I am.....
The sticky question is over Legendary Resistance....
To me Legendary Resistance works as such:
BBEG gets Hold Person cast on him.
He rolls WIS save (DC 16)
He rolls a 3 (+7 Save) for a total of 10. Failure is determined.
He decides to use Legendary Resistance and turn the roll of 10 from a failure to a success. The roll is NOT changed just simply turned into a Success.
Success is declared. Reaction: Silvery Barbs
BBEG Must then roll 10 again and take lower number. This time he rolls a 1 (Whomp Whomp).
The question then is: Does the BBEG need to use another instance of Legendary Resistance to overcome the 1? Or did the original Legendary resistance (That was used on the previous 10 roll) still apply?
The crux of that discussion for me hinges on whether the use of legendary resistance (LR) constitutes a "roll" that can be rerolled.
On a purely emotional level, I feel like legendary resistance is too special to be undone by a level 1 spell. Whether the written rules support this position is being debated and not authoritatively or definitively answered at the moment. I will say that the vast majority of people I have discussed it take the former position, and I am somewhat in the minority by taking the latter.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is a lack of information on what exactly LR does to the "roll"....does it simply make a roll of 10 a success? Or is it just a success without a roll?
I go with the first simply because you have to fail the save to actually make LR apply....you can't just say it succeeds...thus you are basing it off a roll and simply turning that roll into a success.