My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Yes. That is correct. Characters in DnD are able to fight an opponent they can't see, but can use other senses, at a disadvantage. Depending on the attackers stats, that alone can be a severe hampering, as you are often missing. I am not a mathematician to be able to figure out how much lower a percentage to hit happens on disadvantage, but assuming your target has a 10 AC and you have no pluses, you have a 1 in 2 chance to land on a D20 normally, but with disadvantage I believe it becomes 1in 4? I'm terrible at this kind of math. Remember this is fantasy and characters are above the normal human condition, it is not designed to resemble the average real life person, but the exceptional. Your characters are special. Their training is excellent. two npc's fist fighting blindfolded that are level 0 in a room will miss a lot more than your really cool gloomstalker. Let's not forget the average human/humanoid is level zero.
I'll ask again.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
The rule is Unseen Attackers and Targets. It is clear on what the difference between unseen and hidden. Your character is blindfolded, there for suffers from the blinded condition, therefore the target passerby's are unseen. They are not hidden unless they take the action to hide. The rules are clear on hidden characters. Their location is now hidden and you do not know where they are.
The passers-by are passing by. They are not hiding. My character is blindfolded.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
But it does not say anything about being hidden. You are splicing that in. The blinded or deafened clause applies but I have no clue how that applies to anything in this threat other than a situation that was feels very off topic.
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."
IIRC when i ask Jeremy Crawford many years ago about Feral Sense his answer was basically that it could do so with no effort. So others may do it just with a little effort i guess loll
Many in the D&D community did spot the inconsistency a long time ago. It certainly also doesn't jive well with the Devs other answers on this specific subject on Twitter and Podcast.
This discussion is a rare one though where people have invisible but also blinded and or heavily obscured creature as well, literally making anyone unseen , also hidden by default, this with no action or check even required! Even Hide has a check with no success guaranteed making this unseen an improved Hide and rendering the regular Hiding rules completly pointless.
I mean, why would one waste an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you can just get the benefit freely and without any risk of failure?! Why would the rules tell you you can always try to Hide while invisible if you were already freely getting the benefits?!
You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone.
Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you.
These are not the same condition. They're not the same at all.
A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there.
In neither case does the guard see the thief, or even know it is a thief, but in one case he knows something is there and the other he is entirely clueless. But in neither of these condition does the guard know exactly where the invisible creature is. he has not yet given away his location. only his presence.
For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
Thief do something loud and give away his position via sound
Thief attacks, this automatically reveals the location
Guard does Action: Search. tries to look around, perception and/or investigation.
Thief stops being invisible or guard starts seeing invisibility.
The only sensible answer that doesn't break the entire Stealth rules is because it doesn't and being invisible, heavily obscured or otherwise not seen such as versus blinded creature only allow you to try to Hide when you otherwise couldn't. They are enabling you to try, not granting you the benefit freely.
I really hope they'll clarify that in the next revision of their Core rulebooks.
You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone.
Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you.
These are not the same condition. They're not the same at all.
A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there.
In neither case does the guard see the thief, or even know it is a thief, but in one case he knows something is there and the other he is entirely clueless. But in neither of these condition does the guard know exactly where the invisible creature is. he has not yet given away his location. only his presence.
For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
Thief do something loud and give away his position via sound
Thief attacks, this automatically reveals the location
Guard does Action: Search. tries to look around, perception and/or investigation.
Thief stops being invisible or guard starts seeing invisibility.
Being hidden doesn't only mean that, proof is you can hide in combat or other situation where people already know of your presence. Hiding is the by the book way to conceal your location as per the Devs.
If you can't hear an invisible creature and don't know it's location, you are essentially giving it the benefit of being hidden, as an unseen creature would effectively take the Hide action to achieve that otherwise. Except, it'd have to use an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
In your exemple with the thief, the hidden one took an action and has a Stealth score attached to be discovered. The invisible one doesn't and yet has the same benefit of having its location not known.
Worse you are saying that guard has to take an action to investigate while against the hidden one, it's passive Perception could still detect it. It's passive cannot even detect the invisible one?!
Why would the guard stop to investigate since it can't see the invisible creature? Because it can hear it or see tracks it left? then 'the creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.''
And your invisible thief, why would he otherwise ever take the Hide action? Even an invisible and hidden thief might still be detected and still has to stay quiet to keep the benefit of being unheard and have its location not known. [REDACTED]
Hiding: An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
Notes: Please take personal debate to Private Message
But it does not say anything about being hidden. You are splicing that in. The blinded or deafened clause applies but I have no clue how that applies to anything in this threat other than a situation that was feels very off topic.
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."
It literally says hidden....
This is what I get trying to post on New Years Eve and confusing myself.
If you know the location of an unhidden creature regardless, why does it limit this ability to hidden? It is saying that with Feral Senses, you are aware of the location of invisible creatures that you would be aware of regardless. "Congratulations! You have made it to 18th and earned an ability that you already had!
Now the other part, not having disadvantage against such opponents, is still great, but if you do not know their location, how do you not have disadvantage against them?
You do not have the ability to know the location of a invisible creature that is also hidden without rolling for perception. The creature must roll stealth (hide) against your passive perception if you are unaware completely that the invisible creature is in your vicinity. You must roll Perception check versus the invisible creatures stealth roll if you know the creature is somewhere in your vicinity, but you do not know where (say it was in combat and all of a sudden it's not and you think it went into hiding by turning invisible and then taking the hide action). If you have feral senses you automatically know, meaning in these scenarios, your passive perception automatically passes or your active perception automatically passes. No rolls needed. They only way this does not work is if you for some reason are either BLINDED or DEAFENED or both.
You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone.
Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you.
These are not the same condition. They're not the same at all.
A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there.
In neither case does the guard see the thief, or even know it is a thief, but in one case he knows something is there and the other he is entirely clueless. But in neither of these condition does the guard know exactly where the invisible creature is. he has not yet given away his location. only his presence.
For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
Thief do something loud and give away his position via sound
Thief attacks, this automatically reveals the location
Guard does Action: Search. tries to look around, perception and/or investigation.
Thief stops being invisible or guard starts seeing invisibility.
Being hidden doesn't only mean that, proof is you can hide in combat or other situation where people already know of your presence. Hiding is the by the book way to conceal your location as per the Devs.
If you can't hear an invisible creature and know it's location, you are essentially giving it the benefit of being hidden, as an unseen creature would effectively take the Hide action to achieve that otherwise. Except, it'd have to use an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
In your exemple with the thief, the hidden one took an action and has a Stealth score attached to be discovered. The invisible one doesn't and yet has the same benefit of having its location not known.
Worse you are saying that guard has to take an action to investigate while against the hidden one, it's passive Perception could still detect it. It's passive cannot even detect the invisible one?!
Why would the guard stop to investigate since it can't see the invisible creature? Because it can hear it or see tracks it left? then 'the creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.''
And your invisible thief, why would he otherwise ever take the Hide action? Even an invisible and hidden thief might still be detected and still has to stay quiet to keep the benefit of being unheard and have its location not known. [REDACTED]
Hiding: An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.
"You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone."
False. Not knowing someone is around or how someone feels is apt to the PC as well as the DM. If the creature went hidden and invisible while in combat, it is well within the right of the opposing PC's to search the room for the possibly hidden creature because he was in combat before and now it is not. They do not feel "Alone". They don't feel anything. You could roll an INT check if you want to see if they remember the character being in combat if say, there were 20 kobolds and one happens to be lucky enough to have a powerful magic item like ring of invisibility. But your description is false. That is not a RAW. That is how you alone view it.
"Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you."
False. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. That is what happens when a creature is unseen by RAW.
"A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there."
"For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
Thief do something loud and give away his position via sound
Thief attacks, this automatically reveals the location
Guard does Action: Search. tries to look around, perception and/or investigation.
Thief stops being invisible or guard starts seeing invisibility."
FALSE: [REDACTED] If the guard on patrol walked past an invisible creature that is not hidden. He DOES KOW THE LOCATION. Either the invisible creature was NOT trying to actively hide, or, The invisible creature FAILED his stealth roll on a hide action. You can rule, if the invisible PC was not doing anything, just standing there, and being silent, that they are actively trying to hide. They can not say they are not doing anything, just being quiet, but they are not hiding, and then complain if the guard knows their location because they weren't making any noise. That's not how it works. If you do not want to make any noise, you MUST roll for stealth. Regardless of wether you choose to move or not. Then they roll a stealth check and either they make it or they don't. If they don't, they are not hidden and the guard notices something invisible is standing there. Notices something off. A leaf lands on the invisible creatures head. He accidentally farts. He subconsciously rubs his beard. He has an itch he reflexively scratched. The reason for this is because dextrous characters are better at hiding than those that are not. Rogues will do this better than a clumsy priest with high intel but low stealth skills. It is meant to separate skills so characters are not OP. This scenario also means your invisible creature messed up. They need to, if trying to get passed a guard, or sneak in somewhere, or not be noticed still make a stealth roll. The difference between an invisible creature and one not invisible is that if the environment does not make it possible for a non invisible creature to hide, then it just can't do it, but an invisible creature can ALWAYS try to hide.
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I have instructed all personal debate and arguments on who's "right" or "wrong" to be taken to Private Message, which has been ignored. The forums are not the place to quarrel over personal interpretation or belief while labeling all others who do not agree with you. All users are free to read the source material, come to their own conclusion, and play in a manner that suits them. Targeting users with different interpretations than oneself to the extent that they're being told their play is wrong will not be acceptable.
As such, this thread has now come to an end. Thank you.
Again, I remind users that the goal of these forums is not to convince, convert, or otherwise change the beliefs/ideas/values/interpretations of others. Share your thoughts and opinions, then move on.
If the battle here is who is right and who is wrong, please continue this debate in Private Messages. Public forums are not the place for this back and forth argument to persist.
The passers-by are passing by. They are not hiding. My character is blindfolded.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."
It literally says hidden....
You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone.
Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you.
These are not the same condition. They're not the same at all.
A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there.
In neither case does the guard see the thief, or even know it is a thief, but in one case he knows something is there and the other he is entirely clueless. But in neither of these condition does the guard know exactly where the invisible creature is. he has not yet given away his location. only his presence.
For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
The other sensible answer is you're mistaken.
I got quotes!
Being hidden doesn't only mean that, proof is you can hide in combat or other situation where people already know of your presence. Hiding is the by the book way to conceal your location as per the Devs.
If you can't hear an invisible creature and don't know it's location, you are essentially giving it the benefit of being hidden, as an unseen creature would effectively take the Hide action to achieve that otherwise. Except, it'd have to use an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
In your exemple with the thief, the hidden one took an action and has a Stealth score attached to be discovered. The invisible one doesn't and yet has the same benefit of having its location not known.
Worse you are saying that guard has to take an action to investigate while against the hidden one, it's passive Perception could still detect it. It's passive cannot even detect the invisible one?!
Why would the guard stop to investigate since it can't see the invisible creature? Because it can hear it or see tracks it left? then 'the creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.''
And your invisible thief, why would he otherwise ever take the Hide action? Even an invisible and hidden thief might still be detected and still has to stay quiet to keep the benefit of being unheard and have its location not known. [REDACTED]
You do not have the ability to know the location of a invisible creature that is also hidden without rolling for perception. The creature must roll stealth (hide) against your passive perception if you are unaware completely that the invisible creature is in your vicinity. You must roll Perception check versus the invisible creatures stealth roll if you know the creature is somewhere in your vicinity, but you do not know where (say it was in combat and all of a sudden it's not and you think it went into hiding by turning invisible and then taking the hide action). If you have feral senses you automatically know, meaning in these scenarios, your passive perception automatically passes or your active perception automatically passes. No rolls needed. They only way this does not work is if you for some reason are either BLINDED or DEAFENED or both.
"You're not getting the benefits of Hidden by being Invisible... If someone is hidden it means no one knows they're even around anymore. They're gone. Poof. Absent. You and one hiding creature alone ina room together? You feel alone."
False. Not knowing someone is around or how someone feels is apt to the PC as well as the DM. If the creature went hidden and invisible while in combat, it is well within the right of the opposing PC's to search the room for the possibly hidden creature because he was in combat before and now it is not. They do not feel "Alone". They don't feel anything. You could roll an INT check if you want to see if they remember the character being in combat if say, there were 20 kobolds and one happens to be lucky enough to have a powerful magic item like ring of invisibility. But your description is false. That is not a RAW. That is how you alone view it.
"Unseen doesn't work that way. Being just unseen means people can detect your presence with their other senses. Alone in the room with an invisible but not-hidden creature? You feel like you're not alone. Something is here with you."
False. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. That is what happens when a creature is unseen by RAW.
"A guard on patrol past an invisible but not-hidden thief is going to stop to investigate. A guard on patrol past an invisible but hidden thief is going to carry on as if the thief isn't even there."
"For the guard to know his location he'd need to either:
FALSE: [REDACTED] If the guard on patrol walked past an invisible creature that is not hidden. He DOES KOW THE LOCATION. Either the invisible creature was NOT trying to actively hide, or, The invisible creature FAILED his stealth roll on a hide action. You can rule, if the invisible PC was not doing anything, just standing there, and being silent, that they are actively trying to hide. They can not say they are not doing anything, just being quiet, but they are not hiding, and then complain if the guard knows their location because they weren't making any noise. That's not how it works. If you do not want to make any noise, you MUST roll for stealth. Regardless of wether you choose to move or not. Then they roll a stealth check and either they make it or they don't. If they don't, they are not hidden and the guard notices something invisible is standing there. Notices something off. A leaf lands on the invisible creatures head. He accidentally farts. He subconsciously rubs his beard. He has an itch he reflexively scratched. The reason for this is because dextrous characters are better at hiding than those that are not. Rogues will do this better than a clumsy priest with high intel but low stealth skills. It is meant to separate skills so characters are not OP. This scenario also means your invisible creature messed up. They need to, if trying to get passed a guard, or sneak in somewhere, or not be noticed still make a stealth roll. The difference between an invisible creature and one not invisible is that if the environment does not make it possible for a non invisible creature to hide, then it just can't do it, but an invisible creature can ALWAYS try to hide.
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ModeratorI have instructed all personal debate and arguments on who's "right" or "wrong" to be taken to Private Message, which has been ignored. The forums are not the place to quarrel over personal interpretation or belief while labeling all others who do not agree with you. All users are free to read the source material, come to their own conclusion, and play in a manner that suits them. Targeting users with different interpretations than oneself to the extent that they're being told their play is wrong will not be acceptable.
As such, this thread has now come to an end. Thank you.
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