I lean toward the kits are just items what is important is not the items but the proficiency. the small amount of training and practice you receive in using the kit. I believe each of these kits correspond to a school of magic which would indicate what you might make with each proficiency.
herbalism kit=evocation
poisoners kit=conjuration
alchemy kit=transmutation
if this is the case a player with a herbalism proficiency whose kit is destroyed. would be able to borrow a poisoners kit and craft a health potion with additional materials worth the appropriate gp. while a player with a poisoners proficiency with the kit and the gold could not.
The rules you're citing, as OP explained, are demonstrably false - herbalism kits claim they're required to make antitoxin, but Xanathar's unequivocally gives rules for making antitoxin without an herbalism kit, instead using alchemists' supplies. So the question is, in general, how we can make reasonable guesses as to how to make things, depending on the thing in general - since we know herbalism kits are lying about antitoxin, are they also lying about potions of healing? Can you make antitoxin with an herbalism kit? Which kit do you use to make a potion of watchful rest, which is essentially just very good tea, and is the answer both?
Alchemist's Supplies - Cost: 50 gold, weight: 8 pounds. It can be used to create any kind of remedies or Potions.
Herbalism Kit - Cost: 5 gold, weight: 3 pounds, and contains a variety of instruments such as clippers, mortar and pestle, pouches, vials, and is used by Herbalists to create Antitoxins and Potions of Healing.
So at the end of the day, an Herbalism Kit is just one of the items you would find in your Alchemist's Supplies. The Herbalism Kit is much more limited on it's own. It's cheaper, weighs less, has less stuff in it. and can create fewer things. It lets an Herbalist create Potions of Healing, (only the Common kind), Antitoxins, and that's about it. For anything else, you need Alchemist's Supplies and the Alchemy skill to use it.
The rules you're citing, as OP explained, are demonstrably false - herbalism kits claim they're required to make antitoxin, but Xanathar's unequivocally gives rules for making antitoxin without an herbalism kit, instead using alchemists' supplies. So the question is, in general, how we can make reasonable guesses as to how to make things, depending on the thing in general - since we know herbalism kits are lying about antitoxin, are they also lying about potions of healing? Can you make antitoxin with an herbalism kit? Which kit do you use to make a potion of watchful rest, which is essentially just very good tea, and is the answer both?
Thanks for the short summary. I understand the issue now.
RAW: "Herbalism Kit..., proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and any potion of healing" implying that no potion of healing can be made without this proficiency. As per previous discussions, homebrews might take further views on things like other recipes. For instance, a potion of healing made from, say, troll's blood rather than from herbs might be viewed as not needing much if any input from a herblism kit at all.
Alchemist's Supplies - Cost: 50 gold, weight: 8 pounds. It can be used to create any kind of remedies or Potions.
Herbalism Kit - Cost: 5 gold, weight: 3 pounds, and contains a variety of instruments such as clippers, mortar and pestle, pouches, vials, and is used by Herbalists to create Antitoxins and Potions of Healing.
So at the end of the day, an Herbalism Kit is just one of the items you would find in your Alchemist's Supplies. The Herbalism Kit is much more limited on it's own. It's cheaper, weighs less, has less stuff in it. and can create fewer things. It lets an Herbalist create Potions of Healing, (only the Common kind), Antitoxins, and that's about it. For anything else, you need Alchemist's Supplies and the Alchemy skill to use it.
Your statement is inaccurate on three main points:
Alchemist’s supplies enable a character to produce useful concoctions, such as acid or alchemist’s fire.
Components. Alchemist’s supplies include two glass beakers, a metal frame to hold a beaker in place over an open flame, a glass stirring rod, a small mortar and pestle, and a pouch of common alchemical ingredients, including salt, powdered iron, and purified water.
Herbalism Kit
Proficiency with an herbalism kit allows you to identify plants and safely collect their useful elements.
Components. An herbalism kit includes pouches to store herbs, clippers and leather gloves for collecting plants, a mortar and pestle, and several glass jars.
A set of Alchemist's Supplies does not include an Herbalism Kit. (Nor does proficiency in Alchemist Supplies grant proficiency in the Herbalism Kit.)
An Herbalism Kit is required to make any Potion of Healing, not just the basic ones. You are likely thinking that an Herbalism Kit can only make a basic PoH since it’s “equipment” and the others are “magic items,” however that is a misconception. Technically, RAW they are not separate at all, that’s a DDB thing, not a D&D thing. The only reason DDB lists the basic version as Equipment is because it is listed as a purchasable item in the Equipment list in the Basic Rules & PHB. But WotC did that to include a price of 25gp as a convenience to DMs & Players. In order to have that also stay consistent in DDB’s system, that basic variety of PoH was entered as standard Equipment, but it is still technically a “Magic Potion.” DDB has apparently compounded the confusion by tooltipping the basic Potion of Healing in the description of the Herbalism Kit. To more accurately portray RAW, they should have instead tooltipped the full entry for the Potion of Healing as it exists in the Basic Rules & DMG. That was specifically clarified as both RAI & RAW in Xanathar’s under the “Brewing Potions of Healing” subsection of the “Crafting an Item” portion of Downtime Activities section of Xanathar’s Chapter 2, Downtime Revisited:
Brewing Potions of Healing.Potions of healing fall into a special category for item crafting, separate from other magic items. A character who has proficiency with the herbalism kit can create these potions. The times and costs for doing so are summarized on the Potion of Healing Creation table.
Potion of Healing Creation
Type
Time
Cost
Healing
1 day
25 gp
Greater healing
1 workweek
100 gp
Superior healing
3 workweeks
1,000 gp
Supreme healing
4 workweeks
10,000 gp
Additionally, an Herbalism Kit could be used to create any other nonmagical “potions or remedies,” including (but not limited to) those published in Wildemount.
Late reply, but I still wanted to give my take. Personally, the way I run it is that the Herbalism Kit is used to make restorative items. That's healing potions, antitoxins, potions of magic liquid, potions of vitality, etc. Alchemist's Supplies covers anything that enhances you, which is pretty much everything that the Herbalism Kit doesn't cover. That's potions of water breathing, potions of fire breath, any kind of potion that offers resistance to a specific kind of damage, alchemist's fire, etc.
I lean toward the kits are just items what is important is not the items but the proficiency. the small amount of training and practice you receive in using the kit. I believe each of these kits correspond to a school of magic which would indicate what you might make with each proficiency.
herbalism kit=evocation
poisoners kit=conjuration
alchemy kit=transmutation
if this is the case a player with a herbalism proficiency whose kit is destroyed. would be able to borrow a poisoners kit and craft a health potion with additional materials worth the appropriate gp. while a player with a poisoners proficiency with the kit and the gold could not.
Is there something I'm missing regarding the creation of a Potion of Healing and the discussion about Alchemist's Supplies and Herbalism Kit? In the description of the Herbalism Kit it is explicitly stated that the kit is required in order to create a Potion of Healing. So you would not be able to create one with Alchemist's Supplies alone. Has this been errata'd within the past couple of years?
The rules you're citing, as OP explained, are demonstrably false - herbalism kits claim they're required to make antitoxin, but Xanathar's unequivocally gives rules for making antitoxin without an herbalism kit, instead using alchemists' supplies. So the question is, in general, how we can make reasonable guesses as to how to make things, depending on the thing in general - since we know herbalism kits are lying about antitoxin, are they also lying about potions of healing? Can you make antitoxin with an herbalism kit? Which kit do you use to make a potion of watchful rest, which is essentially just very good tea, and is the answer both?
So at the end of the day, an Herbalism Kit is just one of the items you would find in your Alchemist's Supplies. The Herbalism Kit is much more limited on it's own. It's cheaper, weighs less, has less stuff in it. and can create fewer things. It lets an Herbalist create Potions of Healing, (only the Common kind), Antitoxins, and that's about it. For anything else, you need Alchemist's Supplies and the Alchemy skill to use it.
<Insert clever signature here>
Thanks for the short summary. I understand the issue now.
Mellie, when you say any kind of potion would that count for a Potion of Healing?
RAW: "Herbalism Kit..., proficiency with this kit is required to create antitoxin and any potion of healing" implying that no potion of healing can be made without this proficiency.
As per previous discussions, homebrews might take further views on things like other recipes. For instance, a potion of healing made from, say, troll's blood rather than from herbs might be viewed as not needing much if any input from a herblism kit at all.
Your statement is inaccurate on three main points:
As per the expanded rules for Tools published in Xanathar’s Guide:
A set of Alchemist's Supplies does not include an Herbalism Kit. (Nor does proficiency in Alchemist Supplies grant proficiency in the Herbalism Kit.)
Alchemist’s Supplies cannot be used to create any “remedies or potions” RAW, those require an Herbalism Kit, and proficiency in said Kit. Alchemist’s Supplies can be used to create the listed items: “Acid (vial), Alchemist's Fire (flask), Antitoxin,* Oil (flask), Perfume (vial), [and] Soap.”
While those are the example items listed, it would not be unreasonable for Alchemist’s Supplies to also be used in the creation of such other items as: Blasting Powder, a Block of Incense, a Bomb, Candles, Dynamite (Stick), Grenade, Smoke, Gunpowder, Ink (1 ounce bottle), Insect Repellent-Incense, Insect Repellent-Salve, Paper (one sheet), Sealing Wax, or a Tangler Grenade.
*(Note that Antitoxin was also included the list of items that can be created with Alchemist’s Supplies.)
An Herbalism Kit is required to make any Potion of Healing, not just the basic ones. You are likely thinking that an Herbalism Kit can only make a basic PoH since it’s “equipment” and the others are “magic items,” however that is a misconception. Technically, RAW they are not separate at all, that’s a DDB thing, not a D&D thing. The only reason DDB lists the basic version as Equipment is because it is listed as a purchasable item in the Equipment list in the Basic Rules & PHB. But WotC did that to include a price of 25gp as a convenience to DMs & Players. In order to have that also stay consistent in DDB’s system, that basic variety of PoH was entered as standard Equipment, but it is still technically a “Magic Potion.” DDB has apparently compounded the confusion by tooltipping the basic Potion of Healing in the description of the Herbalism Kit. To more accurately portray RAW, they should have instead tooltipped the full entry for the Potion of Healing as it exists in the Basic Rules & DMG. That was specifically clarified as both RAI & RAW in Xanathar’s under the “Brewing Potions of Healing” subsection of the “Crafting an Item” portion of Downtime Activities section of Xanathar’s Chapter 2, Downtime Revisited:
Additionally, an Herbalism Kit could be used to create any other nonmagical “potions or remedies,” including (but not limited to) those published in Wildemount.
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Late reply, but I still wanted to give my take. Personally, the way I run it is that the Herbalism Kit is used to make restorative items. That's healing potions, antitoxins, potions of magic liquid, potions of vitality, etc. Alchemist's Supplies covers anything that enhances you, which is pretty much everything that the Herbalism Kit doesn't cover. That's potions of water breathing, potions of fire breath, any kind of potion that offers resistance to a specific kind of damage, alchemist's fire, etc.