If an attack that does damage also force the target to roll a Strength or Dexterity saving throw happens to reduce the target's hit points to 0 because of the damage rolled, is the target considered unconscious and therefore automatically fails the saving throw, or would they still get a saving throw, since it "happens before" the damage? Would the rules for simultaneous effects apply, meaning that whoever's turn it is gets to decide?
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or Sage Advice Compendium ruling on the matter.
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
What was the specific attack?
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Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
What was the specific attack?
Not sure, not the DM in this case. But it's something like Kayalithica's Rock attack.
In any case the Unconscious condition itself causes the enemy to fall Prone regardless.
As for the general case of if the enemy can even make a save in a situation like this I would treat this as all happening simultaneously. The RAW way to resolve simultaneous events is to have the player controlling the creature whose turn it is decide the order of events.
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
What was the specific attack?
Not sure, not the DM in this case. But it's something like Kayalithica's Rock attack.
Oh. In that case, the attack & damage finishes first.
...Though if it was to determine if the target falls prone, the damage taking them to 0hp would make them fall prone when they go unconscious anyway.
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
What was the specific attack?
Not sure, not the DM in this case. But it's something like Kayalithica's Rock attack.
Yeah, on something like that I'd rule you could be knocked out by the rock, and thus auto-fail the save. But it would be case by case
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Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or SAG compendium ruling on the matter.
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
In that case it is irrelevant as an unconscious person automatically falls prone.
If an attack that does damage also force the target to roll a Strength or Dexterity saving throw happens to reduce the target's hit points to 0 because of the damage rolled, is the target considered unconscious and therefore automatically fails the saving throw, or would they still get a saving throw, since it "happens before" the damage? Would the rules for simultaneous effects apply, meaning that whoever's turn it is gets to decide?
Depends on the attack, but general answer, per Xanathar's, is that the player or DM whose entity controls the current turn settles simultaneous effects. Damage is something that happens when a damaging attack hits. If you have multiple on-hit effects and order matters, turn owner determines order. If you have on-damage effects (such as can happen with certain poisons), those definitionally happen after damage.
So e.g. if you're an open hand monk punching someone with a pushing punch (Str save or be pushed 15 feet; this can only happen during a bonus action, so will definitionally only happen during the monk's turn), you can choose to apply the save-or-be-pushed effect after the damage in the hopes of the target automatically failing, if you are hoping for an unconscious body 15 feet away. If you had a mechanic for doing this off-turn, via a Readied action or perhaps an OA, and you did it to an NPC, the DM would determine the order. If you did it to a PC, that PC's player would determine the order.
Because this applies across the board, you can nest these. If you're an open hand monk wearing a glove and the glove is coated in a contact poison that deals damage based on a Con save, you could choose for your pushing punch order to be damage->poison->push.
If an attack that does damage also force the target to roll a Strength or Dexterity saving throw happens to reduce the target's hit points to 0 because of the damage rolled, is the target considered unconscious and therefore automatically fails the saving throw, or would they still get a saving throw, since it "happens before" the damage? Would the rules for simultaneous effects apply, meaning that whoever's turn it is gets to decide?
I personally would say that if the saving throw also determines whether the target takes half or full damage, the save comes before the damage, since it's a determinant for the amount of damage to take. Hopefully someone will come along with a definite RAW or Sage Advice Compendium ruling on the matter.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
In the particular case that came up at our table, it was a Strength save to avoid being pushed prone.
What was the specific attack?
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not sure, not the DM in this case. But it's something like Kayalithica's Rock attack.
If it was something like a tiger's Pounce, I'd say the triggering [claw] attack and damage would come first, then the Strength save.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I would imagine it was the Trip Attack maneuver.
In any case the Unconscious condition itself causes the enemy to fall Prone regardless.
As for the general case of if the enemy can even make a save in a situation like this I would treat this as all happening simultaneously. The RAW way to resolve simultaneous events is to have the player controlling the creature whose turn it is decide the order of events.
Oh. In that case, the attack & damage finishes first.
...Though if it was to determine if the target falls prone, the damage taking them to 0hp would make them fall prone when they go unconscious anyway.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Yeah, on something like that I'd rule you could be knocked out by the rock, and thus auto-fail the save. But it would be case by case
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In that case it is irrelevant as an unconscious person automatically falls prone.
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Depends on the attack, but general answer, per Xanathar's, is that the player or DM whose entity controls the current turn settles simultaneous effects. Damage is something that happens when a damaging attack hits. If you have multiple on-hit effects and order matters, turn owner determines order. If you have on-damage effects (such as can happen with certain poisons), those definitionally happen after damage.
So e.g. if you're an open hand monk punching someone with a pushing punch (Str save or be pushed 15 feet; this can only happen during a bonus action, so will definitionally only happen during the monk's turn), you can choose to apply the save-or-be-pushed effect after the damage in the hopes of the target automatically failing, if you are hoping for an unconscious body 15 feet away. If you had a mechanic for doing this off-turn, via a Readied action or perhaps an OA, and you did it to an NPC, the DM would determine the order. If you did it to a PC, that PC's player would determine the order.
Because this applies across the board, you can nest these. If you're an open hand monk wearing a glove and the glove is coated in a contact poison that deals damage based on a Con save, you could choose for your pushing punch order to be damage->poison->push.
I appreciate your input. Two things, though:
The SAC ruling is that the creature who’s turn it is chooses the order of operations in such circumstances.
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