EDIT: sorry, I was looking at the wrong spell, gimme a sec XD
EDIT 2: I believe the answer to you question is in this Sage Advice post. Basically, since Chaos Bolt is able to affect more than one creature at its base level, it cannot be Twinned.
LeK is correct. You can never twin a spell that can affect more than one creature at its current level, whether that targeting happens by chance or in future turns.
Empowered Spell can be used to increase the chances targeting another creature. The normal chance is 12.5%; being able to reroll 1 die increases the odds to 23.4% while being able to reroll 2 gives 33%. If you're able to reroll 3+ dice and get a second target, you can use those remaining rerolls to try to get a third target.
Chaos bolt can be twinned spell. It does not initially target two creatures at any level of the spell. As a result of the damage roll after the spell resolves it can possibly target an additional one target thus not breaking metamagic rules for twinned spell.
The rules for twinned spell are as follows: when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self you can spend sorcery points equal to the spell level to target an additional creature in range with the same spell.
Chaos bolt when cast targets one creature in range. You do not choose more than one target when you cast it so it can be twinned spell. Casting the spell and damage results are separate results. This applies to ice knife as well.
As for twinspell ruling as “you can never apply twin spell to a spell that effects more than one creature is wrong. The rules specify that it cannot apply to a spell that specifically “targets” more than one creature when you cast it. Thus after effects from damage roles can bypass this. This means for all you rules lawyers that any spell that lets you target more than one target at its initial casting (for the level of spell slot used) cannot be twinned spelled, and any target that says self cannot be twinned, and any spell that says no target but aoe cannot be twinned. You look at the first line of the spell where it specifies your target and if it says “one target” after applying any adjustments for the level of spell slot used, then twin spell metamagic can be used.
Agreed; although some spells, like Chain Lightning, have "Other targets" and are therefore disqualified, Chaos Bolt specifically clarifies that there is one target, and then the bolt recasts itself to a new single target if certain conditions are met as the spell is resolved. Mr. Crawford's rules clarifications are sometimes not particularly clear, and he doesn't actually answer the question in this case.
LeK and InquisitiveCoder are right. The phrasing on twinned spell is as follows (emphasis mine):
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
Chaos bolt does not recast itself - it is the same casting of the same chaos bolt, just affecting additional targets. The spell even clarifies that one creature can't be targeted twice by the same casting of the spell. It cannot be twinned. This is for the same reason that you can't twin Ice Knife; the initial target of that spell is one creature, then it explodes and may randomly affect some other creatures if they are close enough. Chaos Bolt targets one creature, but then may randomly target and affect more if the dice go a certain way.
The official ruling is that if a spell affects or is able to affect more than one creature (by whatever means) when cast at this level, then it cannot be twinned.
Chaos Bolt and Ice Knife can be twinned because the PHB says "targets" not "affects" Crawford's tweet is misleading because it changes the wording from the PHB
Chaos Bolt and Ice Knife can be twinned because the PHB says "targets" not "affects" Crawford's tweet is misleading because it changes the wording from the PHB
Incorrect. A creature or object that is/can be affected by a spell is a target. Chaos Bolt & Ice Knife are both capable of targeting more than one creature. They are not eligible for Twinned Spell.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Chaos Bolt and Ice Knife can be twinned because the PHB says "targets" not "affects" Crawford's tweet is misleading because it changes the wording from the PHB
Firstly, this is a quite old thread. Secondly, Nope. At least for chaos bolt. The second target is in fact a target.
Make a new attack roll against the new target,
And on top of that, the description of targets indicates that they are simply the things that are affected by the spell, typically chosen by the caster. If you choose a creature to be the center of an AOE, just like if you choose a point in space to be the center of an AOE, all creatures in that AOE become targets of the effect of that AOE.
Chaos Bolt and Ice Knife can be twinned because the PHB says "targets" not "affects" Crawford's tweet is misleading because it changes the wording from the PHB
Firstly, this is a quite old thread. Secondly, Nope. At least for chaos bolt. The second target is in fact a target.
Make a new attack roll against the new target,
And on top of that, the description of targets indicates that they are simply the things that are affected by the spell, typically chosen by the caster. If you choose a creature to be the center of an AOE, just like if you choose a point in space to be the center of an AOE, all creatures in that AOE become targets of the effect of that AOE.
Where is this definition of Targets given relating to AoE? In the PHB it doesn’t say this unless I misread something. The reason an AoE spell would fail is that the target is typically a point of space, not a creature (even if the point in space is occupied by a creature). Only a spell that targets only one creature (excluding yourself) can be twinned.
assuming I’ve not missed a definition of Target that contradicts what I said above, I would rule that ice knife could be twinned, as even though the shatter effect can affect additional creatures, the spell only ever “targets” one (this is backed up in the spell description which separates the “target” and other creatures in the wording). Similarly, any other AoE spell could be twinned provided the target is specifically mentioned in the spell description as being “a creature” or “one creature” even if the spell could affect others
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic.
The appropriate reading of this sentence is that a target of a spell is anything affected by the spell's magic, typically chosen (though not necessarily directly) by the caster. This is one of the problems of natural language rules where target could mean "affected creature" or "point of aim." If you aim a point in space, then you are selecting creatures to be affected around that point. The targets of the spell (in the context of twinning) are the creatures affected by the spell. Without that definition, a spell that targets a point in space theoretically targets zero creatures and therefore could be twinned, which is definitely not the case.
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic.
The appropriate reading of this sentence is that a target of a spell is anything affected by the spell's magic, typically chosen (though not necessarily directly) by the caster. This is one of the problems of natural language rules where target could mean "affected creature" or "point of aim." If you aim a point in space, then you are selecting creatures to be affected around that point. The targets of the spell (in the context of twinning) are the creatures affected by the spell. Without that definition, a spell that targets a point in space theoretically targets zero creatures and therefore could be twinned, which is definitely not the case.
The rules for twinning say a single creature, not two or more, but also not zero. A point in space is a target, but it is not a creature (even if said point is occupied by a creature). Most AoE spells target a point in space; and there is a mechanical difference between the “target” and “targeting” as a game mechanic, and aiming at something when it comes to those types of AoE spells. Ice Knife is an odd one where the AoE is “targeted” at a creature, and not a point in space, which is why I would rule it could be twinned, where Fireball, which can only “target” a point of space (not a creature) cannot.
Though my original example of cure wounds is a touch spelll, there are plenty of spells that only use use the word "target" to describe an affected creature.
“Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shieldspell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.“
From the PHB: clearly states that touch spells “target” only a creature you touch
the full rules for “targeting” are pretty clear in that section
So you suppose most AoEs are out not because they can affect more than one creature but because they aren't aimed directly at any? That seems to be at odds with how "target" is used in the descriptions of spells. Fireball, which you point out "targets" space calls the creatures affected by it "targets." You can't have it both ways. Either they 're targets or not. If they're targets, so are the creatures affected by other AoEs.
Ice Knife doesn’t call the extra creatures “targets” though...It says “The target and each creature within 5 feet of it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 cold damage.”. The target is the creature you initially cast the spell at, but at no point does it refer to the extra creatures as “targets”
It doesn't have to. They're affected creatures, they're targets. Otherwise fireball does all its damage to a point in space.
I agree with you on Fireball. It lists the affected creatures as “targets”. What I’m saying is that “ice knife” specifically has different wording that only lists the original creature as the target. Otherwise they would use the same wording as Fireball
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Is there an earata or does a rule lawyer from wizard of the coast said Something about it ?
Thank you
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DM : homebrew, level 4 group.
EDIT: sorry, I was looking at the wrong spell, gimme a sec XD
EDIT 2: I believe the answer to you question is in this Sage Advice post.
Basically, since Chaos Bolt is able to affect more than one creature at its base level, it cannot be Twinned.
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LeK is correct. You can never twin a spell that can affect more than one creature at its current level, whether that targeting happens by chance or in future turns.
Empowered Spell can be used to increase the chances targeting another creature. The normal chance is 12.5%; being able to reroll 1 die increases the odds to 23.4% while being able to reroll 2 gives 33%. If you're able to reroll 3+ dice and get a second target, you can use those remaining rerolls to try to get a third target.
Chaos bolt can be twinned spell. It does not initially target two creatures at any level of the spell. As a result of the damage roll after the spell resolves it can possibly target an additional one target thus not breaking metamagic rules for twinned spell.
The rules for twinned spell are as follows: when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self you can spend sorcery points equal to the spell level to target an additional creature in range with the same spell.
Chaos bolt when cast targets one creature in range. You do not choose more than one target when you cast it so it can be twinned spell. Casting the spell and damage results are separate results. This applies to ice knife as well.
As for twinspell ruling as “you can never apply twin spell to a spell that effects more than one creature is wrong. The rules specify that it cannot apply to a spell that specifically “targets” more than one creature when you cast it. Thus after effects from damage roles can bypass this. This means for all you rules lawyers that any spell that lets you target more than one target at its initial casting (for the level of spell slot used) cannot be twinned spelled, and any target that says self cannot be twinned, and any spell that says no target but aoe cannot be twinned. You look at the first line of the spell where it specifies your target and if it says “one target” after applying any adjustments for the level of spell slot used, then twin spell metamagic can be used.
Agreed; although some spells, like Chain Lightning, have "Other targets" and are therefore disqualified, Chaos Bolt specifically clarifies that there is one target, and then the bolt recasts itself to a new single target if certain conditions are met as the spell is resolved. Mr. Crawford's rules clarifications are sometimes not particularly clear, and he doesn't actually answer the question in this case.
LeK and InquisitiveCoder are right. The phrasing on twinned spell is as follows (emphasis mine):
the spell must have a range other than self and be incapable of targeting more than one creature. Also to quote mr Crawford from sage advice:
And when someone specifically asked about Chaos Bolt:
So as soon as a spell can affect more than one creature, either by initial target or "bounces" it is ineligeble for Twinned Spell.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Chaos bolt does not recast itself - it is the same casting of the same chaos bolt, just affecting additional targets. The spell even clarifies that one creature can't be targeted twice by the same casting of the spell. It cannot be twinned. This is for the same reason that you can't twin Ice Knife; the initial target of that spell is one creature, then it explodes and may randomly affect some other creatures if they are close enough. Chaos Bolt targets one creature, but then may randomly target and affect more if the dice go a certain way.
The official ruling is that if a spell affects or is able to affect more than one creature (by whatever means) when cast at this level, then it cannot be twinned.
Chaos Bolt and Ice Knife can be twinned because the PHB says "targets" not "affects" Crawford's tweet is misleading because it changes the wording from the PHB
Incorrect. A creature or object that is/can be affected by a spell is a target. Chaos Bolt & Ice Knife are both capable of targeting more than one creature. They are not eligible for Twinned Spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Firstly, this is a quite old thread. Secondly, Nope. At least for chaos bolt. The second target is in fact a target.
And on top of that, the description of targets indicates that they are simply the things that are affected by the spell, typically chosen by the caster. If you choose a creature to be the center of an AOE, just like if you choose a point in space to be the center of an AOE, all creatures in that AOE become targets of the effect of that AOE.
Where is this definition of Targets given relating to AoE? In the PHB it doesn’t say this unless I misread something. The reason an AoE spell would fail is that the target is typically a point of space, not a creature (even if the point in space is occupied by a creature). Only a spell that targets only one creature (excluding yourself) can be twinned.
assuming I’ve not missed a definition of Target that contradicts what I said above, I would rule that ice knife could be twinned, as even though the shatter effect can affect additional creatures, the spell only ever “targets” one (this is backed up in the spell description which separates the “target” and other creatures in the wording). Similarly, any other AoE spell could be twinned provided the target is specifically mentioned in the spell description as being “a creature” or “one creature” even if the spell could affect others
The appropriate reading of this sentence is that a target of a spell is anything affected by the spell's magic, typically chosen (though not necessarily directly) by the caster. This is one of the problems of natural language rules where target could mean "affected creature" or "point of aim." If you aim a point in space, then you are selecting creatures to be affected around that point. The targets of the spell (in the context of twinning) are the creatures affected by the spell. Without that definition, a spell that targets a point in space theoretically targets zero creatures and therefore could be twinned, which is definitely not the case.
The rules for twinning say a single creature, not two or more, but also not zero. A point in space is a target, but it is not a creature (even if said point is occupied by a creature). Most AoE spells target a point in space; and there is a mechanical difference between the “target” and “targeting” as a game mechanic, and aiming at something when it comes to those types of AoE spells. Ice Knife is an odd one where the AoE is “targeted” at a creature, and not a point in space, which is why I would rule it could be twinned, where Fireball, which can only “target” a point of space (not a creature) cannot.
Though my original example of cure wounds is a touch spelll, there are plenty of spells that only use use the word "target" to describe an affected creature.
“Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shieldspell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.“
From the PHB: clearly states that touch spells “target” only a creature you touch
the full rules for “targeting” are pretty clear in that section
So you suppose most AoEs are out not because they can affect more than one creature but because they aren't aimed directly at any? That seems to be at odds with how "target" is used in the descriptions of spells. Fireball, which you point out "targets" space calls the creatures affected by it "targets." You can't have it both ways. Either they 're targets or not. If they're targets, so are the creatures affected by other AoEs.
Actually, you are right! For Fireball...
Ice Knife doesn’t call the extra creatures “targets” though...It says “The target and each creature within 5 feet of it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 cold damage.”. The target is the creature you initially cast the spell at, but at no point does it refer to the extra creatures as “targets”
It doesn't have to. They're affected creatures, they're targets. Otherwise fireball does all its damage to a point in space.
I agree with you on Fireball. It lists the affected creatures as “targets”. What I’m saying is that “ice knife” specifically has different wording that only lists the original creature as the target. Otherwise they would use the same wording as Fireball