This is not a helpful argument in a forum that is discussing rules as written. It has its place in cases where there is no answer to be found within the rules but this is really overused throughout this forum -- it's surprising how many threads in a rules as written forum have someone suggest this.
Rules as written, this is evidentlt somewhat unclear. What is clear, in the rules, is that the DM makes the adjudication of the rules for the table when there's one to be made.
My opinion, though, is that rules as written - you can make a bonus action shove after attacking. This is based on the common wording found throughout the system docs, the natural language used in the PHB section on bonus actions, and the feat itself.
As a DM, I would instead rule that the bonus action shove attempt can happen at any point in your turn so long as you have declared you will attack on that turn. This is in-line with early rulings by Crawford before he changed his mind. I find it to be more useful for my players that way without introducing any sort of balance issue.
I haven't read through this entire thread but I don't really agree with this interpretation or ruling that you can take a Bonus action before your action completes. The phrase "take an action" appears everywhere throughout the game but "complete an action" is a phrase that is practically never used. In my opinion, the common language used in the rules imply that "taking" an action means that the action is executed all the way through completion. In other words, actions are sequential, not nested.
There is a very specific detail about the manner in which certain actions may be executed that is described in the rules in Chapter 9 -> Movement and Position -> Breaking Up Your Move -> Moving Between Attacks: "If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks". Extra Attack is mentioned as an example of a feature that would allow for this manner of execution of the Attack action. Note that this is a property of how movement works in the game -- it's not implied that this works for anything else within the action economy.
While the rules do not specifically say that actions cannot be nested or cannot overlap with each other, they really shouldn't have to. That would be inconsistent with the structure of how the rules are organized throughout the game. Just because the rules only say that you take an action "on your turn" and that you "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn" doesn't mean that these things can be nested or overlapped with each other in my opinion. T hese statements are talking about the window of opportunity for when you can do these things and in which order you can do them in sequentially.
Here is a contrived example that I think might show how this can get out of hand: Suppose I am in a room and I need to keep the doorway ahead of me unblocked so that my companions can move through it on their turn. Above the doorway is a cage full of monsters that are making ranged attacks against us and could continue to attack through the doorway. There is a lever nearby that can be pulled -- it has a trigger in a middle position that lowers the cage to the ground which blocks the doorway but when the lever is pulled all the way the cage also rises back up to its original position. The lever is guarded by and is held in place by a hostile monster. Pulling the lever also drops another monster down from the ceiling, landing right next to the lever.
Here is what I want to do: Could I take the attack action and use one of my two attacks of my Extra Attack feature to kill the monster that was holding the lever (assume it was an unarmed strike) and then action surge to take an action to pull the lever. While in the middle of pulling this lever (but I haven't finished doing so yet) the cage is lowered to the ground level, putting the monsters inside within range of my fireball spell. While still pulling this lever I now use a Hasted action to cast fireball, killing the monsters in the cage. I now continue and finish executing my "pull the lever" action which sends the cage back up, unblocking the door. This results in a monster dropping from the ceiling next to me. As a bonus action I now shove this creature to the ground and THEN I use the 2nd attack from my Extra Attack feature of my original action to kill this monster?
As you know, the game works by the player describing what they want to do and the DM adjudicating that description.
1) In your description, pulling the lever may be an object interaction, and may not require an action.
2) You describe the lever as having two positions - one which lowers the cage and one which raises it back up. The range of fireball is 150'. Personally, if I was running this, I would say the cage could not go down and back up within a single combat round. That would either require too much movement or would take too long. The lever could not be moved to the next position that would raise the crate on the same turn that it was moved to the position it was lowered.
However, the point of this is a hypothetical situation where the details don't matter. Your question is whether you can take an Action inside another action and the rules don't say one way or another.
The discussion here is about BONUS actions which specifically state they can be taken any time they are available. There is similar wording for REACTIONS. However, there is no text about a regular ACTION.
Can you make an Attack when taking the attack action, move and attack again - YES, that is explicitly in the rules.
Can you make an Attack when taking the attack action, move, Action surge to cast a spell using another action, move and then take the extra attack of your attack action? - MAYBE. The rules don't explicitly state but I would lean towards saying YES in a game I was running since it makes narrative sense.
Some examples that are explicitly allowed by the rules:
A fighter/cleric could make an attack using the attack action, move, cast healing word, move again and make their second attack.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to disengage, run over and attack another creature.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to dash, move and attack another creature that is farther away.
By prohibiting a bonus action use after the first attack of the attack action, you prevent the fighter/rogue from using class features that they should be allowed to use at any time during the turn. The DM could turn around and say to the fighter/rogue that they should have declared the use of the bonus action before making the first attack but the character doesn't know in advance that their attack will be effective or not. What bonus action they wish to use may well depend on whether the first attack is effective or not.
Similarly, the fighter/cleric may need to move a bit in order to get their team mate within range for healing word.
So, personally, I see a lot of scenarios where NOT allowing bonus actions between attacks of the attack action creates significant narrative dissonance in how the characters use their abilities.
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Getting back to your example: move, attack, action surge, bonus action, move, second attack. In general, I would allow it, the only part that is not explicitly allowed in the rules is whether you can take an actual action in the midst of another action using action surge (I'm not sure if there is any other ability in the game that allows that). However, there are several instances in the rules where an action or attack can be broken up with reactions like shield or counterspell. Bonus actions can explicitly be taken at any time and there is no clause saying "except during another action". So, in general, there seems to be no explicit or implied restriction that actions are atomic and can't be split or interrupted or overlap with other actions.
As a result, I'd tend to rule that the general structure of your example is fine and I'd allow it. (From a practical perspective though, in a game I was running, the lever would not be able to be activated twice in a turn both lowering and raising the cage but the rest of your hypothetical example seems fine to me).
Ah, I see that "throw a lever or switch" is listed as an example within the section for "Interacting With Objects Around You".
What I meant in the example was something more like what is listed under Other Activity On Your Turn: "For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge."
So think of turning this crank which operates an unusual mechanism which moves along sort of a U-Shaped track such that when cranked all the way from one position to the other the cage is lowered but then raised again. The turning of the crank could take a few seconds -- which begs the question -- can I actually do other things while I am in the process of turning the crank?
You made a lot of good points in your reply -- perhaps you are correct. I will have to rethink my idea for how this all works in 5e.
Some examples that are explicitly allowed by the rules:
A fighter/cleric could make an attack using the attack action, move, cast healing word, move again and make their second attack.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to disengage, run over and attack another creature.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to dash, move and attack another creature that is farther away.
While I agree those things should be allowed, and I would certainly allow them in my games, I'm pretty sure they're not explicitly allowed by the rules. Can you back that up with actual rule citations? As far as I'm aware, the only thing that's explicitly allowed to happen between attacks from Extra Attack is movement.
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This is not a helpful argument in a forum that is discussing rules as written. It has its place in cases where there is no answer to be found within the rules but this is really overused throughout this forum -- it's surprising how many threads in a rules as written forum have someone suggest this.
Rules as written, this is evidentlt somewhat unclear. What is clear, in the rules, is that the DM makes the adjudication of the rules for the table when there's one to be made.
My opinion, though, is that rules as written - you can make a bonus action shove after attacking. This is based on the common wording found throughout the system docs, the natural language used in the PHB section on bonus actions, and the feat itself.
As a DM, I would instead rule that the bonus action shove attempt can happen at any point in your turn so long as you have declared you will attack on that turn. This is in-line with early rulings by Crawford before he changed his mind. I find it to be more useful for my players that way without introducing any sort of balance issue.
As you know, the game works by the player describing what they want to do and the DM adjudicating that description.
1) In your description, pulling the lever may be an object interaction, and may not require an action.
2) You describe the lever as having two positions - one which lowers the cage and one which raises it back up. The range of fireball is 150'. Personally, if I was running this, I would say the cage could not go down and back up within a single combat round. That would either require too much movement or would take too long. The lever could not be moved to the next position that would raise the crate on the same turn that it was moved to the position it was lowered.
However, the point of this is a hypothetical situation where the details don't matter. Your question is whether you can take an Action inside another action and the rules don't say one way or another.
The discussion here is about BONUS actions which specifically state they can be taken any time they are available. There is similar wording for REACTIONS. However, there is no text about a regular ACTION.
Can you make an Attack when taking the attack action, move and attack again - YES, that is explicitly in the rules.
Can you make an Attack when taking the attack action, move, Action surge to cast a spell using another action, move and then take the extra attack of your attack action? - MAYBE. The rules don't explicitly state but I would lean towards saying YES in a game I was running since it makes narrative sense.
Some examples that are explicitly allowed by the rules:
A fighter/cleric could make an attack using the attack action, move, cast healing word, move again and make their second attack.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to disengage, run over and attack another creature.
A fighter/rogue with extra attack could make an attack, use their bonus action to dash, move and attack another creature that is farther away.
By prohibiting a bonus action use after the first attack of the attack action, you prevent the fighter/rogue from using class features that they should be allowed to use at any time during the turn. The DM could turn around and say to the fighter/rogue that they should have declared the use of the bonus action before making the first attack but the character doesn't know in advance that their attack will be effective or not. What bonus action they wish to use may well depend on whether the first attack is effective or not.
Similarly, the fighter/cleric may need to move a bit in order to get their team mate within range for healing word.
So, personally, I see a lot of scenarios where NOT allowing bonus actions between attacks of the attack action creates significant narrative dissonance in how the characters use their abilities.
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Getting back to your example: move, attack, action surge, bonus action, move, second attack. In general, I would allow it, the only part that is not explicitly allowed in the rules is whether you can take an actual action in the midst of another action using action surge (I'm not sure if there is any other ability in the game that allows that). However, there are several instances in the rules where an action or attack can be broken up with reactions like shield or counterspell. Bonus actions can explicitly be taken at any time and there is no clause saying "except during another action". So, in general, there seems to be no explicit or implied restriction that actions are atomic and can't be split or interrupted or overlap with other actions.
As a result, I'd tend to rule that the general structure of your example is fine and I'd allow it. (From a practical perspective though, in a game I was running, the lever would not be able to be activated twice in a turn both lowering and raising the cage but the rest of your hypothetical example seems fine to me).
Ah, I see that "throw a lever or switch" is listed as an example within the section for "Interacting With Objects Around You".
What I meant in the example was something more like what is listed under Other Activity On Your Turn: "For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge."
So think of turning this crank which operates an unusual mechanism which moves along sort of a U-Shaped track such that when cranked all the way from one position to the other the cage is lowered but then raised again. The turning of the crank could take a few seconds -- which begs the question -- can I actually do other things while I am in the process of turning the crank?
You made a lot of good points in your reply -- perhaps you are correct. I will have to rethink my idea for how this all works in 5e.
While I agree those things should be allowed, and I would certainly allow them in my games, I'm pretty sure they're not explicitly allowed by the rules. Can you back that up with actual rule citations? As far as I'm aware, the only thing that's explicitly allowed to happen between attacks from Extra Attack is movement.