I'm trying to think of other situations where a player might want to take a bonus action in the middle of an action. The examples I can think of are pretty irrelevant because the bonus action works just as well before or after the action.
A Monk of at least 5th level (because of Extra Attack class feature) using their Flurry of Blows Since the word “Immediately” is used:
“Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.”
Good catch! I'm thinking the specific wording of the Flurry of Blows feature allows it to supersede the (weird) general rule about triggered bonus actions in the middle of an action. I wonder if you can use a reaction in the middle of the attack action and then continue the attack action.
I'm trying to think of other situations where a player might want to take a bonus action in the middle of an action. The examples I can think of are pretty irrelevant because the bonus action works just as well before or after the action.
A Monk of at least 5th level (because of Extra Attack class feature) using their Flurry of Blows Since the word “Immediately” is used:
“Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.”
Good catch! I'm thinking the specific wording of the Flurry of Blows feature allows it to supersede the (weird) general rule about triggered bonus actions in the middle of an action. I wonder if you can use a reaction in the middle of the attack action and then continue the attack action.
I'm trying to think of other situations where a player might want to take a bonus action in the middle of an action. The examples I can think of are pretty irrelevant because the bonus action works just as well before or after the action.
A Monk of at least 5th level (because of Extra Attack class feature) using their Flurry of Blows Since the word “Immediately” is used:
“Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.”
Good catch! I'm thinking the specific wording of the Flurry of Blows feature allows it to supersede the (weird) general rule about triggered bonus actions in the middle of an action. I wonder if you can use a reaction in the middle of the attack action and then continue the attack action.
You can.
What are you talking about? The entire history of this thread is laying out that you can't do any of that. The key tweet(s) quoted can be summarized as: you cannot split up any action except when specifically allowed (as with movement between attacks or a reaction/bonus action which triggers off something during an action like a single attack - rather than the Attack Action), and "take the Attack Action" means to start and complete all the attacks of that action.
So the flurry of blows happens "after you take the Attack action", meaning after your last normal attack. Indeed it must happen "immediately after", so you aren't even able to reposition before the flurry. This is even more restrictive than the shield shove. Neither bonus action can be taken between attacks of the Attack action. This is the clarified RAI, and we have to assume the intended RAW (though it is easy to argue the RAW is ambiguous, thus the 12 pages before this one).
You can use some reactions (like a Counterspell or something) in the middle of your action, but only if the required trigger occurs after you start it and before you've finished it.
For shield master you need to make a weapon attack first THEN use your bonus action to make a contested athletics check to shove a creature, then if you have the extra attack feature to to make another attack.
On that note the above action is a attack that can replace one of your attacks at will, this is the same for grapple and disarm checks. Grapples and shoves are athletics check can be contested by either athletics or acrobatics, disarm is a attempt to grab a item another creature is holding, it is a athletics check that can only be contested by another athletics check
I wonder if you can use a reaction in the middle of the attack action and then continue the attack action.
You can.
What are you talking about? The entire history of this thread is laying out that you can't do any of that.....
You can use some reactions (like a Counterspell or something) in the middle of your action, but only if the required trigger occurs after you start it and before you've finished it.
Thank you for telling me I’m wrong and then telling me I’m right.
For example: If you have a Character that was a level 5 Rogue and a level 5 Fighter then that character has both the Rogue’s Uncanny Dodge class feature and the Fighter’s Extra Attack class feature. If that Character were to start the Attack Action and make 1 attack, then leave combat invoking an attack of opportunity, then the character could absolutely use its Reaction to Uncanny Dodge before engaging a new opponent to make the second attack as part of the same “Attack Action.” Then they would still have their Bonus Action for something like an additional attack with a second weapon, or the Cunning Action Disengage.
So would the current ruling mean that you could use your attack action to shove, and then use your bonus action as another shove/attempt? And since it only requires the attack action, couldn't you do something silly like shoot a hand crossbow at someone 30 feet away, then run up and shove them?
The feat was potentially overpowered as an automatic advantage generator, but now it is really janky. Kinda wish they would just figure out a way to combine it with the new shield feat and streamline it.
Pay attention to the trigger. If the bonus action is triggered on taking the attack action, then you must complete the attack action before you can use the bonus action. If the bonus action is triggered on making an attack, then you can use the bonus action after any of the attacks in your attack action.
I'm trying to think of other situations where a player might want to take a bonus action in the middle of an action. The examples I can think of are pretty irrelevant because the bonus action works just as well before or after the action.
A Monk of at least 5th level (because of Extra Attack class feature) using their Flurry of Blows Since the word “Immediately” is used:
“Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.”
Looking again at this, Flurry of Blows triggers on taking the attack action (like shield master), not on making an attack (like tavern brawler). So either you aren't supposed to use it until after completing the attack action or else Jeremy's rule of thumb is inconsistent.
I know what you're thinking. How can Jeremy's tweets be inconsistent? I'm shocked too.
Pay attention to the trigger. If the bonus action is triggered on taking the attack action, then you must complete the attack action before you can use the bonus action. If the bonus action is triggered on making an attack, then you can use the bonus action after any of the attacks in your attack action.
I'm trying to think of other situations where a player might want to take a bonus action in the middle of an action. The examples I can think of are pretty irrelevant because the bonus action works just as well before or after the action.
A Monk of at least 5th level (because of Extra Attack class feature) using their Flurry of Blows Since the word “Immediately” is used:
“Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.”
Looking again at this, Flurry of Blows triggers on taking the attack action (like shield master), not on making an attack (like tavern brawler). So either you aren't supposed to use it until after completing the attack action or else Jeremy's rule of thumb is inconsistent.
I know what you're thinking. How can Jeremy's tweets be inconsistent? I'm shocked too.
This makes me wonder if there really was a moment where sword and board builds were actually that OP before.
In a fight against humanoids, its just one target gong prone for a bit (if it lands). And against anything much bigger, it doesn't apply.
Maybe it was less of a balance thing, and more a matter of not wanting every sword and board character to pick this feat?
According to this blog post, the author seems to think it was the inclusion of the minotaur UA back in 2018 that caused the designers to take another look at the shield master feat. Compare it with the very similar Hammering Horns feat from the minotaur race, and you can see the subtle difference.
Hammering Horns
Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and within 5 feet of you. Unless it succeeds on a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier, you push it up to 10 feet away from you.
I don't think it was ever overpowered. I think the designers looked at how it was worded and said, "Well heck, I guess in order to stay consistent, it doesn't work the way everyone wants it to work."
For what it's worth, I read Hammering Horns as more restrictive than Shield Master, not less. Hammering Horns Bonus must be taken "immediately" after "you hit" with an Attack. That can be after the first, second, third, or fourth attack in your Attack action, but you can't hit, then move, then Bonus Action Hammering Horns.
Meanwhile with Shield Master, once you "take the Attack action," you now have unlocked the Shield Master Bonus Action at any point you choose. "Take the Attack action" does require taking at least one attack with it (or, casting one Cantrip with it, if you're a Bladesinger), but taking your first Attack attack, moving 10 feet, Bonus Action Shield Master shove, second attack, third attack, fourth attack is RAW (and I don't care what JC or 12 points of old thread might say otherwise, the PHB says what it says).
Both require at least one attack from the Attack action, but Hammering Horns (1) requires you to actually hit with the attack, and (2) doesn't let you move before shoving. That makes Hammering Horns more restrictive in those two concrete ways, and less restrictive in zero ways. Opinion rejected :)
So, don't take this feat, or rebuild your character? The only use for this then is to take up space in handbook and cause furious debate. Thanks for the clarification.
As a person playing a Champion, this really really is the only option this class has to control enemy's or increase damage. Advantage due to an enemy in the prone position in conjunction with improved or superior critical brought that class up to par with other melee classes and fit the character, but no longer. The Champion class is interesting. In appearance it is the initial fighter sub class, has room for real potential to role play, but is entirely useless in any other capacity. The Champion should be the preeminent fighter class and instead it is a foot soldier.
Instead play an archer, a gunslinger, a paladin, a battle master, Helm be blessed even a ranger! Anything but a Champion.
While you are lawyering about, figure out a way to un-$%#@ this class? How does a 15% chance to deal an additional 1d8 (superior critical) offset Smite with every strike anytime after level 5? This feat as it was puts it on par with the Open Hand technique (Monk lvl 3), why not for Champions?
Allow the feat to replace an attack? DMG = Shield AC + ATK Bonus? Make it a Fighter only feat? If you take this as petty anger please try reading it again through the lens of frustration.
The only use for this then is to take up space in handbook and cause furious debate.
I'm with you. While it's, I guess, situationally nice to be able to give other melee characters advantage on their turns, it's still pretty limited.
The Champion class is interesting. In appearance it is the initial fighter sub class, has room for real potential to role play, but is entirely useless in any other capacity.
also agree.
I've not seen much in the way of homebrews to make the class better. I don't even need it to approach paladin levels. I just want it to NOT have an ability that only shows up rarely, at best. Shield master might have been nice. But it's silly to have shunted it off like this. I couldn't tell from your suggestions if the shield master bonus action could get damage, but that seems like at least a consolation prize. You can't benefit from the primary reason you'd knock someone down, but at least you'd do a little damage. A d4 maybe, like all the other bonus attacks?
It really is nonsense. We all now the score by now: two-hand melee builds get Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, ranged builds get Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, and sword and shield melee builds get +2AC and... nerfed Shield Master? Defensive Duelist if you go finesse? Nothing even close to the other builds, frankly.
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Good catch! I'm thinking the specific wording of the Flurry of Blows feature allows it to supersede the (weird) general rule about triggered bonus actions in the middle of an action. I wonder if you can use a reaction in the middle of the attack action and then continue the attack action.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You can.
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What are you talking about? The entire history of this thread is laying out that you can't do any of that. The key tweet(s) quoted can be summarized as: you cannot split up any action except when specifically allowed (as with movement between attacks or a reaction/bonus action which triggers off something during an action like a single attack - rather than the Attack Action), and "take the Attack Action" means to start and complete all the attacks of that action.
So the flurry of blows happens "after you take the Attack action", meaning after your last normal attack. Indeed it must happen "immediately after", so you aren't even able to reposition before the flurry. This is even more restrictive than the shield shove. Neither bonus action can be taken between attacks of the Attack action. This is the clarified RAI, and we have to assume the intended RAW (though it is easy to argue the RAW is ambiguous, thus the 12 pages before this one).
You can use some reactions (like a Counterspell or something) in the middle of your action, but only if the required trigger occurs after you start it and before you've finished it.
For shield master you need to make a weapon attack first THEN use your bonus action to make a contested athletics check to shove a creature, then if you have the extra attack feature to to make another attack.
On that note the above action is a attack that can replace one of your attacks at will, this is the same for grapple and disarm checks. Grapples and shoves are athletics check can be contested by either athletics or acrobatics, disarm is a attempt to grab a item another creature is holding, it is a athletics check that can only be contested by another athletics check
Thank you for telling me I’m wrong and then telling me I’m right.
For example: If you have a Character that was a level 5 Rogue and a level 5 Fighter then that character has both the Rogue’s Uncanny Dodge class feature and the Fighter’s Extra Attack class feature. If that Character were to start the Attack Action and make 1 attack, then leave combat invoking an attack of opportunity, then the character could absolutely use its Reaction to Uncanny Dodge before engaging a new opponent to make the second attack as part of the same “Attack Action.” Then they would still have their Bonus Action for something like an additional attack with a second weapon, or the Cunning Action Disengage.
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So would the current ruling mean that you could use your attack action to shove, and then use your bonus action as another shove/attempt? And since it only requires the attack action, couldn't you do something silly like shoot a hand crossbow at someone 30 feet away, then run up and shove them?
The feat was potentially overpowered as an automatic advantage generator, but now it is really janky. Kinda wish they would just figure out a way to combine it with the new shield feat and streamline it.
Yes, both of those work.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That feels kinda dumb. But at least a fighter can still knock someone down and wail on them with action surge.
Sage Advice 2019 Compendium
https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=8
The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action.
-Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action?-
No.
The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn.
Intending you take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action.
During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you ‘ve taken the Attack action.
This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules.
The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play.
^^ The above is the official response I typed out word for word. Answered.^^
That's unfortunate. That was most of the appeal of Shield Master. With this, the feat loses a lot of its luster.
Oh well.
Pay attention to the trigger. If the bonus action is triggered on taking the attack action, then you must complete the attack action before you can use the bonus action. If the bonus action is triggered on making an attack, then you can use the bonus action after any of the attacks in your attack action.
Looking again at this, Flurry of Blows triggers on taking the attack action (like shield master), not on making an attack (like tavern brawler). So either you aren't supposed to use it until after completing the attack action or else Jeremy's rule of thumb is inconsistent.
I know what you're thinking. How can Jeremy's tweets be inconsistent? I'm shocked too.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This makes me wonder if there really was a moment where sword and board builds were actually that OP before.
In a fight against humanoids, its just one target gong prone for a bit (if it lands). And against anything much bigger, it doesn't apply.
Maybe it was less of a balance thing, and more a matter of not wanting every sword and board character to pick this feat?
According to this blog post, the author seems to think it was the inclusion of the minotaur UA back in 2018 that caused the designers to take another look at the shield master feat. Compare it with the very similar Hammering Horns feat from the minotaur race, and you can see the subtle difference.
I don't think it was ever overpowered. I think the designers looked at how it was worded and said, "Well heck, I guess in order to stay consistent, it doesn't work the way everyone wants it to work."
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That makes sense. I wish they would just fix the feat through errata then. Right now, its a weirdly impotent kind of support feat now.
For what it's worth, I read Hammering Horns as more restrictive than Shield Master, not less. Hammering Horns Bonus must be taken "immediately" after "you hit" with an Attack. That can be after the first, second, third, or fourth attack in your Attack action, but you can't hit, then move, then Bonus Action Hammering Horns.
Meanwhile with Shield Master, once you "take the Attack action," you now have unlocked the Shield Master Bonus Action at any point you choose. "Take the Attack action" does require taking at least one attack with it (or, casting one Cantrip with it, if you're a Bladesinger), but taking your first Attack attack, moving 10 feet, Bonus Action Shield Master shove, second attack, third attack, fourth attack is RAW (and I don't care what JC or 12 points of old thread might say otherwise, the PHB says what it says).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
To me that's not more restrictive--just differently restrictive. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Both require at least one attack from the Attack action, but Hammering Horns (1) requires you to actually hit with the attack, and (2) doesn't let you move before shoving. That makes Hammering Horns more restrictive in those two concrete ways, and less restrictive in zero ways. Opinion rejected :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So, don't take this feat, or rebuild your character? The only use for this then is to take up space in handbook and cause furious debate. Thanks for the clarification.
As a person playing a Champion, this really really is the only option this class has to control enemy's or increase damage. Advantage due to an enemy in the prone position in conjunction with improved or superior critical brought that class up to par with other melee classes and fit the character, but no longer. The Champion class is interesting. In appearance it is the initial fighter sub class, has room for real potential to role play, but is entirely useless in any other capacity. The Champion should be the preeminent fighter class and instead it is a foot soldier.
Instead play an archer, a gunslinger, a paladin, a battle master, Helm be blessed even a ranger! Anything but a Champion.
While you are lawyering about, figure out a way to un-$%#@ this class? How does a 15% chance to deal an additional 1d8 (superior critical) offset Smite with every strike anytime after level 5? This feat as it was puts it on par with the Open Hand technique (Monk lvl 3), why not for Champions?
Allow the feat to replace an attack? DMG = Shield AC + ATK Bonus? Make it a Fighter only feat? If you take this as petty anger please try reading it again through the lens of frustration.
I'm with you. While it's, I guess, situationally nice to be able to give other melee characters advantage on their turns, it's still pretty limited.
also agree.
I've not seen much in the way of homebrews to make the class better. I don't even need it to approach paladin levels. I just want it to NOT have an ability that only shows up rarely, at best. Shield master might have been nice. But it's silly to have shunted it off like this. I couldn't tell from your suggestions if the shield master bonus action could get damage, but that seems like at least a consolation prize. You can't benefit from the primary reason you'd knock someone down, but at least you'd do a little damage. A d4 maybe, like all the other bonus attacks?
who knows. equally frustrated
It really is nonsense. We all now the score by now: two-hand melee builds get Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, ranged builds get Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, and sword and shield melee builds get +2AC and... nerfed Shield Master? Defensive Duelist if you go finesse? Nothing even close to the other builds, frankly.