I was very excited about the Eladrin, changing season is awesome!
But i am shocked that the race gets a +1 on Charisma instead of intelligence. I currently play a wizard eladrin (Race from the dmg) which came with a +1 on intelligence. Changing it for the official race now sounds like a bad idea, speacially because of the Cha instead of Int.
What do you yhink about that stat change? I’m shocked.
Keep in mind, when a new option appears in a more recent book, it doesn't nullify previous options unless it explicitly mentions so (or is later mentioned in errata, like Catapult was, if memory serves).
Humans have always had "variants", and after their reappearance on Volo's Guide to Monsters, so do Aasimar. And now the Eladrin join them.
The concept of the eladrin has changed so massively across all the editions that there's really no other way to determine what suits it other than the lore given for this edition. I hate that Charisma is such a dominant stat in this edition and that Intelligence is almost always a dump stat, but I'd have to say that Charisma for this incarnation of the eladrin is probably more fitting.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
The concept of the eladrin has changed so massively across all the editions that there's really no other way to determine what suits it other than the lore given for this edition. I hate that Charisma is such a dominant stat in this edition and that Intelligence is almost always a dump stat, but I'd have to say that Charisma for this incarnation of the eladrin is probably more fitting.
CHA is probably the second most likely dump stat after INT. Everyone needs CON (HP, important save), DEX (AC, initiative, important save) and WIS (passive perception, important save) to a certain extent. INT and CHA saves aren't common, rarely kill you, and a party usually only needs one character that's good at social interaction. It's mainly the number of spellcasting classes that use CHA instead of INT that's skewed. Warlocks were originally going to be INT casters (their description in the PH still hints at this) but playtesting feedback asked to keep them CHA-based like in previous editions.
Anyways, I agree charisma fits the eladrin's closer-to-fey nature better than intelligence.
The concept of the eladrin has changed so massively across all the editions that there's really no other way to determine what suits it other than the lore given for this edition. I hate that Charisma is such a dominant stat in this edition and that Intelligence is almost always a dump stat, but I'd have to say that Charisma for this incarnation of the eladrin is probably more fitting.
CHA is probably the second most likely dump stat after INT. Everyone needs CON (HP, important save), DEX (AC, initiative, important save) and WIS (passive perception, important save) to a certain extent. INT and CHA saves aren't common, rarely kill you, and a party usually only needs one character that's good at social interaction. It's mainly the number of spellcasting classes that use CHA instead of INT that's skewed. Warlocks were originally going to be INT casters (their description in the PH still hints at this) but playtesting feedback asked to keep them CHA-based like in previous editions.
Anyways, I agree charisma fits the eladrin's closer-to-fey nature better than intelligence.
Though the most universally useful stats (and most frequently prioritized among all classes) certainly goes Con then Dex then Wis, in my experience Str is more commonly dumped than Cha or Int. Those 3 are definitely in the bottom of course, and your points are certainly valid, just pointing out Str is an option (and a great option) for dump stat potential across a variety of character types.
As for the Eladrin, personally I would've loved to have seen a Wisdom boost. They're too rare, while there are Cha boosts all over the place, and a Wis boost would reflect better nature based spellcasters (closer ties to nature), keen perception (great if you're in the wild all the time), and well, wisdom, which definitely fits their nature, as divine-focused beings. Frankly, if not them, then what Would constitute a good race for a Wisdom bonus? Just mho, Cha is fine, I just feel Wis would've been more suitable, and better for overall game balance besides.
Those 3 are definitely in the bottom of course, and your points are certainly valid, just pointing out Str is an option (and a great option) for dump stat potential across a variety of character types.
That's true. I made an Arcana Cleric with STR as their dump stat (she was supposed to be extremely bookish). Great in combat, but ran into issues with carrying capacity pretty quickly.
As for the Eladrin, personally I would've loved to have seen a Wisdom boost. They're too rare, while there are Cha boosts all over the place, and a Wis boost would reflect better nature based spellcasters (closer ties to nature), keen perception (great if you're in the wild all the time), and well, wisdom, which definitely fits their nature, as divine-focused beings.
I'd say WIS and CHA races are about even.
WIS races: Hill Dwarf (+1), Wood Elf (+1), Water Genasi (+1), Firbolg (+2), Kenku (+1), Lizardfold (+1), Tortle (+1), and now Githzerai (+2).
+2 WIS races are rarer than +2 CHA races but a +1 is still enough to start with a +3 modifier using the standard array or point buy. You really only need the +2 if you want to start with 17 and take a half-feat at 4th level.
+2 WIS races are rarer than +2 CHA races but a +1 is still enough to start with a +3 modifier using the standard array or point buy. You really only need the +2 if you want to start with 17 and take a half-feat at 4th level.
Ah nice, I didn't realize Githzerai in the MtoF were going to be +2. That was really my main qualm with the Wis races, since though you certainly don't *need* the +2, if you want it, right now the only option which exists is the Firbolg, which is a fine option, don't get me wrong, but it's unfortunate for it to be so limited. Glad to see they're expanding the options on that end.
The Eladrin in the DMG is based on the 4e version of the Eladrin, which were really just renamed high elves. In 2nd and 3rd edition, Eladrin as a race refered to elf-like celestials* that populated the Chaotic Good planes and hand an alternate form made of energy. In 5th edition, high elves and these new eladrin are once again separate races, while the DMG eladrin seem to be more closely related to the high elves. So, if you want the 4e version of the eladrin, use the high elf (+feat?) or the DMG version. The Eladrin coming out now are more like the 2/3 Planescape version, where each seems to have an associated energy form as well, and likely ties to the Sorcerer class instead of Wizard.
I always felt that INT for the elf and fae races was a bit off feeling to me. Elves (and by extension, the eladrin) always felt weird to me as a wizard race; they don't feel bookish to me, but rather innately magical, individualistic, with no small touch of wildness to them. Its kind of ironic that the high elves always seemed to be the most human-like of elves to me, and the least fae.
* I wonder if archons will be a thing, or if they'll be blended into general angels?
CHA is probably the second most likely dump stat after INT.
Then you have experienced vastly different player cohorts than I. Not only are Charisma primary/secondary classes very popular, but even those who aren't often still prize Charisma at least as a tertiary ability score, primarily for the Deception, Intimidation & Persuasion skills.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
How much of a sample size could I possibly have? I play with the same two groups year after year.
What I do know is that this is what the class distribution looked like back in September:
Doesn't seem like CHA classes are particularly popular to me.
Granted, after Xanathar's Warlock became #1 because of Hexblade and Sorcerer ended up #4 (???). But Paladin went down and Bard's second to last, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Samurai uses Charisma, warlocks, sorcerers, rogues all use charisma, paladins as well. Looking at it as a percentage, just taking into account primary Charisma classes, 29% of people making characters on DDB are making Charisma-based characters. Add in secondary Charisma-based classes (paladin, swashbuckler, samurai) and I'd wager that'd at least knock it up to 33%. A third of all characters not dumping Charisma as a stat seems pretty significant to me.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
No more than any other Fighter. They do have a class feature that lets them add their Wisdom mod to Charisma (Persuasion) checks and gives them proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. That disincentivizes Charisma since Wisdom saving throws are a better investment and increasing your Wisdom will increase your Persuasion checks. Also, Samurai isn't in the top 3 Fighter subclasses.
warlocks, sorcerers, rogues all use charisma, paladins as well.
Well yeah, 3 of those classes use CHA as their spellcasting ability. CHA isn't exactly a priority for most Rogues*: 34% choose Expertise in Stealth, 14% choose Perception, 12% choose Sleight of Hand and 9% choose Acrobatics; Deception comes in 6th place. Yes, Swashbuckler uses it for initiative, but Assassin and Arcane Trickster are more popular.
We can split hairs about how dumpable CHA is but that wasn't really my point. The claim was that CHA is a dominant ability; none of the data seems to indicate that. There aren't significantly more CHA classes than classes that use other abilities and they're not disproportionately popular. Anyone that doesn't use CHA for their class features can safely dump it, and there aren't any significant advantages to having two high-Persuasion characters in the same party. Most Rogues prefer DEX and WIS for stealth and finding/disabling traps. If your bar for "dominant ability" is merely "not the most likely to be dumped", then most ability scores are dominant.
Sounds more like you're annoyed INT gets the short end of the stick.
A well balanced party is going to include at least the following non-combat skill sets - A strong man (athletics), Stealth, Perception / possibly Investigation, Arcana and Religion checks, Survival, someone with Deception coupled with Persuasion or Intimidate, thief tools, and Insight, as well as healing (often magical) and Detect/Dispel Magic spells. Some skills lots of people will likely want (*cough*Perception*cough*), but mostly you only need one or two people with each skill in the entire group. And that means you need at least one person in the group who doesn't dump INT to get that Religion and Arcane skills; likewise, most groups tend to shy away from having multiple people with the same social skills; people usually shy away from such overlap in a small group.
Yes, there are four classes where Charisma is a main stat, and one for Intelligence. That's going to be corrected whenever they finally publish Artificer and Mystic.
That said, I don't understand why there's hate over Charisma being more populous in terms of classes here. Like, why does it matter? Did the Charisma stat beat you up and steal your lunch money in school or something? Is it reflective of some innate hatred of having social-fu in games?
All in all, however, we're wildly off topic here. A very likely reason for the Charisma on the new Eladrin is probably to reflect an affinity for the Sorcerer class, as opposed to the high elf's wizard affinity. Eladrin, back in Planescape of 2nd and 3rd edition, had the ability to turn into the elements and energy forms, so it makes sense for them to have an affinity for the sorcerer class, as opposed to the high elf's wizardry or the wood elf's druid/ranger affinity. The eladrin kind of have issues holding their body together, being closer to Chaos than other races.
The 2e celestial Eladrin have been retconned to be 5e eladrin that reverted back to fey creatures due to the Feywild's magic and were admitted back into Arvandor. Also, sorcerers usually have some unexplained/atypical power while Eladrin are already described as magical beings. I think they're just sticking to the trope of seelie fey being beautiful, beguiling creatures. CR 1 Dryads have 18 Charisma.
Also, sorcerers usually have some unexplained/atypical power while Eladrin are already described as magical beings.
Umm.... bwa? Sorcerers have various methods that can give them power, but its hardly atypical or unexplained. I mean, heck. Dragon soul sorcerers are generally the children of dragons - magical beings. Divine souls are often the result of either a divine bloodline, or being directly Chosen by a god, as per the write up. That's very specific and hardly unexplained. I think you're confusing the lack of hard origins for the class in general with the ability to to pick a specific origin from a wide variety of options for each individual PC.
"I think they're just sticking to the trope of seelie fey being beautiful, beguiling creatures. CR 1 Dryads have 18 Charisma."
Dryads aren't eladrin. Nor are hags, sprites, blink dogs, darklings, etc. There are plenty of fae that go in lots of directions. Linking the eladrin to dryads as an explanation is reaching, and that's before we start on the whole issue of beauty != charisma.
The overwhelming majority of race mechanics are built around specific class archetypes. Its not a stretch to assume the same here. Or do you think its a coincidence that the wizardly high elves have a +Int bonus, and wood elves get +Wis for their rangers and druid archetypes?
Umm.... bwa? Sorcerers have various methods that can give them power, but its hardly atypical or unexplained.
The appearance of sorcerous powers is wildly unpredictable. Some draconic bloodlines produce exactly one sorcerer in every generation, but in other lines of descent every individual is a sorcerer. Most of the time, the talents of sorcery appear as apparent flukes. Some sorcerers can’t name the origin of their power, while others trace it to strange events in their own lives. The touch of a demon, the blessing of a dryad at a baby’s birth, or a taste of the water from a mysterious spring might spark the gift of sorcery. So too might the gift of a deity of magic, exposure to the elemental forces of the Inner Planes or the maddening chaos of Limbo, or a glimpse into the inner workings of reality
Dryads aren't eladrin. Nor are hags, sprites, blink dogs, darklings, etc. There are plenty of fae that go in lots of directions. Linking the eladrin to dryads as an explanation is reaching, and that's before we start on the whole issue of beauty != charisma.
The College of Glamour is the home of bards who mastered their craft in the vibrant realm of the Feywild or under the tutelage of someone who dwelled there. Tutored by satyrs, eladrin, and other fey, these bards learn to use their magic to delight and captivate others.
The overwhelming majority of race mechanics are built around specific class archetypes. Its not a stretch to assume the same here. Or do you think its a coincidence that the wizardly high elves have a +Int bonus, and wood elves get +Wis for their rangers and druid archetypes?
All I'm saying is I doubt they're pushing some sort of predisposition to sorcery here. They could just be charismatic.
i mean i do not relay count as i usually stick to warlock .so the +1 cha is spot on for me especially with the fey pack.but i can see were +1 int would be tops to ..lets not forget the utility of fey step thou i do not recall that being there before ..or at least i never noticed it .i just started using it .and its saved my life from spells and traps a few times .saved me once when i had a gut feeling as the half-ling opened a traped chest .saved myself taking a hefty amount of damage
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I was very excited about the Eladrin, changing season is awesome!
But i am shocked that the race gets a +1 on Charisma instead of intelligence. I currently play a wizard eladrin (Race from the dmg) which came with a +1 on intelligence. Changing it for the official race now sounds like a bad idea, speacially because of the Cha instead of Int.
What do you yhink about that stat change? I’m shocked.
Charisma makes more sense for the fey aspect of the background.
It makes more sense for their current background, and also gives us non-evil charismatic elves!
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Keep in mind, when a new option appears in a more recent book, it doesn't nullify previous options unless it explicitly mentions so (or is later mentioned in errata, like Catapult was, if memory serves).
Humans have always had "variants", and after their reappearance on Volo's Guide to Monsters, so do Aasimar. And now the Eladrin join them.
The concept of the eladrin has changed so massively across all the editions that there's really no other way to determine what suits it other than the lore given for this edition. I hate that Charisma is such a dominant stat in this edition and that Intelligence is almost always a dump stat, but I'd have to say that Charisma for this incarnation of the eladrin is probably more fitting.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
That's true. I made an Arcana Cleric with STR as their dump stat (she was supposed to be extremely bookish). Great in combat, but ran into issues with carrying capacity pretty quickly.
+2 WIS races are rarer than +2 CHA races but a +1 is still enough to start with a +3 modifier using the standard array or point buy. You really only need the +2 if you want to start with 17 and take a half-feat at 4th level.
The Eladrin in the DMG is based on the 4e version of the Eladrin, which were really just renamed high elves. In 2nd and 3rd edition, Eladrin as a race refered to elf-like celestials* that populated the Chaotic Good planes and hand an alternate form made of energy. In 5th edition, high elves and these new eladrin are once again separate races, while the DMG eladrin seem to be more closely related to the high elves. So, if you want the 4e version of the eladrin, use the high elf (+feat?) or the DMG version. The Eladrin coming out now are more like the 2/3 Planescape version, where each seems to have an associated energy form as well, and likely ties to the Sorcerer class instead of Wizard.
I always felt that INT for the elf and fae races was a bit off feeling to me. Elves (and by extension, the eladrin) always felt weird to me as a wizard race; they don't feel bookish to me, but rather innately magical, individualistic, with no small touch of wildness to them. Its kind of ironic that the high elves always seemed to be the most human-like of elves to me, and the least fae.
* I wonder if archons will be a thing, or if they'll be blended into general angels?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
How much of a sample size could I possibly have? I play with the same two groups year after year.
What I do know is that this is what the class distribution looked like back in September:
Doesn't seem like CHA classes are particularly popular to me.
Granted, after Xanathar's Warlock became #1 because of Hexblade and Sorcerer ended up #4 (???). But Paladin went down and Bard's second to last, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Samurai uses Charisma, warlocks, sorcerers, rogues all use charisma, paladins as well. Looking at it as a percentage, just taking into account primary Charisma classes, 29% of people making characters on DDB are making Charisma-based characters. Add in secondary Charisma-based classes (paladin, swashbuckler, samurai) and I'd wager that'd at least knock it up to 33%. A third of all characters not dumping Charisma as a stat seems pretty significant to me.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
No more than any other Fighter. They do have a class feature that lets them add their Wisdom mod to Charisma (Persuasion) checks and gives them proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. That disincentivizes Charisma since Wisdom saving throws are a better investment and increasing your Wisdom will increase your Persuasion checks. Also, Samurai isn't in the top 3 Fighter subclasses.
Well yeah, 3 of those classes use CHA as their spellcasting ability. CHA isn't exactly a priority for most Rogues*: 34% choose Expertise in Stealth, 14% choose Perception, 12% choose Sleight of Hand and 9% choose Acrobatics; Deception comes in 6th place. Yes, Swashbuckler uses it for initiative, but Assassin and Arcane Trickster are more popular.
We can split hairs about how dumpable CHA is but that wasn't really my point. The claim was that CHA is a dominant ability; none of the data seems to indicate that. There aren't significantly more CHA classes than classes that use other abilities and they're not disproportionately popular. Anyone that doesn't use CHA for their class features can safely dump it, and there aren't any significant advantages to having two high-Persuasion characters in the same party. Most Rogues prefer DEX and WIS for stealth and finding/disabling traps. If your bar for "dominant ability" is merely "not the most likely to be dumped", then most ability scores are dominant.
Sounds more like you're annoyed INT gets the short end of the stick.
*See the February Development Update
A well balanced party is going to include at least the following non-combat skill sets - A strong man (athletics), Stealth, Perception / possibly Investigation, Arcana and Religion checks, Survival, someone with Deception coupled with Persuasion or Intimidate, thief tools, and Insight, as well as healing (often magical) and Detect/Dispel Magic spells. Some skills lots of people will likely want (*cough*Perception*cough*), but mostly you only need one or two people with each skill in the entire group. And that means you need at least one person in the group who doesn't dump INT to get that Religion and Arcane skills; likewise, most groups tend to shy away from having multiple people with the same social skills; people usually shy away from such overlap in a small group.
Yes, there are four classes where Charisma is a main stat, and one for Intelligence. That's going to be corrected whenever they finally publish Artificer and Mystic.
That said, I don't understand why there's hate over Charisma being more populous in terms of classes here. Like, why does it matter? Did the Charisma stat beat you up and steal your lunch money in school or something? Is it reflective of some innate hatred of having social-fu in games?
All in all, however, we're wildly off topic here. A very likely reason for the Charisma on the new Eladrin is probably to reflect an affinity for the Sorcerer class, as opposed to the high elf's wizard affinity. Eladrin, back in Planescape of 2nd and 3rd edition, had the ability to turn into the elements and energy forms, so it makes sense for them to have an affinity for the sorcerer class, as opposed to the high elf's wizardry or the wood elf's druid/ranger affinity. The eladrin kind of have issues holding their body together, being closer to Chaos than other races.
i mean i do not relay count as i usually stick to warlock .so the +1 cha is spot on for me especially with the fey pack.but i can see were +1 int would be tops to ..lets not forget the utility of fey step thou i do not recall that being there before ..or at least i never noticed it .i just started using it .and its saved my life from spells and traps a few times .saved me once when i had a gut feeling as the half-ling opened a traped chest .saved myself taking a hefty amount of damage