So, I’m DMing Shadow of the Dragon Queen and the party is likely to find a Dancing Sword shortly. The wording for this item is “The sword uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls”.
How do people interpret that? My first thought was that it used the ability score modifier that the character attuned to it uses for their main attacks (so, Dexterity if they mostly use finesse weapons); alternatively, it’s a longsword, so would it just use Strength?
For context, the party has only one Strength-based character (a Minotaur barbarian) with the other two melee-fighters being Dexterity-based (a Kender paladin and a human sword bard). All the magic weapons that have I’ve seen in the adventure are Strength-based, so I was hoping that this might be more flexible.
As a follow-on question, if the Barbarian used it, would it benefit from their Rage bonus?
So, the trick with this magic item is that it can be any type of sword. It is a sword that is magically enchanted in a manner that allows it to be used as described in the item description for Dancing Sword. But the damage output of that weapon is the same as if you were wielding the non-magical version of the sword in a melee attack. So, if the Dancing Sword happened to be a Greatsword, it would do slashing damage of 2d6 + STR and the weapon would have the heavy and two-handed properties, just like a non-magical Greatsword. If the Dancing Sword happened to be a Rapier, it would do piercing damage of 1d8 + (STR or DEX) and the weapon would have the finesse property, just like a non-magical Rapier. And so on.
As for your other questions, there isn't really any such thing as a character using a specific modifier for their main attacks -- that modifier is based on the weapon that they are using or the spell in question, etc. Indeed, if this item is a longsword then it would be using STR. There is nothing about this magic item that is flexible in the way that you're thinking -- if it's a longsword you don't get to have one character use STR and then have them pass it off to another character (who attunes with it) and have that character use DEX. It doesn't work that way. Whichever type of sword was enchanted determines these things. If it happens to be a type of sword with the finesse property then there is some flexibility there -- not because it's a Dancing Sword, but because it has the finesse property.
In your case, you'd have to go back and carefully read the adventure that you are running, Shadow of the Dragon Queen and see if the type of sword is specified. I'm not sure if you were just assuming that it's a longsword or if the adventure actually states this. If it does, and you are running it as is, then it's a longsword and would use STR. If the adventure doesn't specify which type of sword it is then you could roll for that randomly or you (the DM) could just pick a type when they find it.
I believe that the intent is that the sword uses your statistics to make the attack rolls, using itself. So if it's a Longsword, it lacks Finesse and thus must use your Strength score to make the attacks.
Barbarian rage is a grey area, I would rule no as it's the sword making the attack, not the barbarian.
Finally, I don't know the adventure, but unless it's critical that the sword be a Longsword, then consider changing it to a Rapier or Scimitar, so that the more dex-based characters can consider it as well! Adapting a game to suit the characters is a good excercise!
Thanks all for your advice! I was coming to the same conclusion as the consensus here (I.e. if it’s a longsword, you use strength), but good to have some verification.
As written, I believe It would use strength. However, it doesn't change the balance of the Campaign if you give them a dancing rapier instead of a longsword. The wording of the item says that the sword, is making an attack NOT the person who activated it. Because of this, the Rage bonus would not apply, and neither would features like Reckless Attack.
If you want to give your dex based party members magic items, you can change the loot. There's no Wizards of the Coast special ops team that shows up at your door if you make edits to a pre-written campaign. They only do that if you leak unreleased MTG cards.
Good call on Rage bonus and Reckless Attack not applying to these sword attacks due to the sword doing the attacking (of course, you can use the Dancing Sword in hand to attack like a normal melee weapon, in which these bonuses would apply).
Keep in mind that these special sword attacks can be done as a bonus action so even without extra bonuses it's still really good. You can use it normally as a melee weapon with an attack action against a creature standing in front of you and then immediately toss it up and have it attack that same creature again as a bonus action while also holding a shield (vs what is possible with the offhand attack in two weapon fighting, for example). Next turn you can use your item interaction to grasp the sword again, swing it and then toss it up for the bonus action attack again, and so on. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to fight with two hands and also use this hovering sword as a 3rd weapon since you'd have to choose between two bonus actions.
I think another thing to consider is that these special sword attacks also probably should not be considered to be melee weapon attacks (maybe?), which would also disqualify features such as the Rage bonus and the Reckless Attack. It's sort of unclear though -- it isn't really specified in the item description which type of attack the sword is doing. If it's not technically a melee attack then I believe this also means that the Barbarian's Brutal Critical abilities would also be disqualified for these special sword attacks. In terms of interacting with other game features, I'm not sure if these attacks could be considered to be ranged attacks or spell attacks either -- I'm not really sure what they are. Maybe they are ranged attacks with a range of 5 feet? An unarmed strike with a predetermined damage formula? Natural weapon (a melee weapon attack after all)? How would you guys categorize these attacks for the purposes of game mechanics interactions?
I just had another thought. If you use this feature to attack an enemy the sword will then be hovering next to the enemy when your turn ends. What prevents the enemy from just grasping the sword out of the air and using it for his own non-magical melee attacks on his own turn? Weird.
So, I’m DMing Shadow of the Dragon Queen and the party is likely to find a Dancing Sword shortly. The wording for this item is “The sword uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls”.
How do people interpret that? My first thought was that it used the ability score modifier that the character attuned to it uses for their main attacks (so, Dexterity if they mostly use finesse weapons); alternatively, it’s a longsword, so would it just use Strength?
The Dancing Sword is the one attacking, not you but it uses your ability score modifier for attack and damage rolls. The short sword having the finesse property use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. Without it, Strenght would be a lock.
As a follow-on question, if the Barbarian used it, would it benefit from their Rage bonus?
No as written a Dancing Sword only uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls, no other bonus or extra damage roll you otherwise gain when you are the only doing so.
While not official rule source, the Dev has answered in that sense on Twitter as well;
@MeimingNanashi If a rogue has a rapier dancing sword, if it hits an enemy, can it do sneak attack damage (provided there's advantage,etc)?
@JeremyECrawford If you're a rogue with a dancing sword, the sword, not you, does the attacking.
Following that logic RAW the Dancing Sword wouldn't even add your proficienc bonus since you're not the one attacking but i doubt many DM rule it thatw ay;
Proficiency Bonus: You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with which you have proficiency
The Dancing Sword specifies that it uses your attack roll, so I think proficiency bonus would apply, as it is a part of the roll. However, it only specifies that it adds your ability score modifier to damage, not that it uses your damage roll or any other relevant modifiers.
Then again, I don't think it would significantly change the balance of the campaign if you added the rage bonus to damage.
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I just had another thought. If you use this feature to attack an enemy the sword will then be hovering next to the enemy when your turn ends. What prevents the enemy from just grasping the sword out of the air and using it for his own non-magical melee attacks on his own turn? Weird.
I remember trying to create a homebrew subclass that could animate weapons, and trying to stat out the weapon fully with rules on how to determine what happens when an enemy grabs it ended up just really bogging the whole thing down. I feel like it's best to just say, "It magically can't be grabbed". Like... if someone tries to grab it, just explain that it's like trying to push two magnets together by the same pole... some invisible force just prevents anything from getting close to the handle.
I just had another thought. If you use this feature to attack an enemy the sword will then be hovering next to the enemy when your turn ends. What prevents the enemy from just grasping the sword out of the air and using it for his own non-magical melee attacks on his own turn? Weird.
The sword “dances” out of their grasp.
I played a College of Whispers bard who made fantastic use of a dancing rapier. My DM allowed me to use my character’s Psychic Blades feature with it, and it was super fun. So if I were DMing I would allow the wielder to use stuff like Blade Flourishes and stuff with the sword.
A Dancing Sword fly and attack one creature of your choice within 5 feet of it so cover should apply.
If such creature in an heavily obscured area, It would be up to DM if it apply because the sword doesn't see the creature it attacks, but the attack is against a creature of your choice and use your attack roll.
About the closest thing I could compare it to would be spiritual weapon. But the spell distinctly says you are making the attack, and the dancing sword does not. The attack is happening on your turn, using your action, and your attack modifier, but the description says the sword makes the attack. It makes me wonder if it interacts at all with things like cover and concealment. Any method by which the sword perceives the target is completely unmentioned. You tell it to attack and it attacks.
I'm with Plaguescarred. I think the DM has to make a ruling because this falls outside the normal situation.
EDIT: My interpretation would be to allow the sword to attack without any regard for cover or concealment based on perception. If you tell the sword to attack an enemy in a fog cloud, it would go right over and attack without disadvantage. You don't need to know where the target is--just that the target is present and within range.
EDIT 2: In my fog cloud example, the dancing sword would actually have advantage, since it would be an unseen attacker.
Like you TexasDevin i also would likely rule that the target being heavily obscured, invisible or otherwise unseen wouldn't matter to the dancing sword's attack. If seeing was meant to be a factor i assume it would have instead said it attacks one creature of your choice you can see within 5 feet of it.
For cover on the other hand, i would allow a target to benefit from cover if the attack originates on the opposite side of the cover or if an effect specifically say it grant cover.
I think being invisible should still impose disadvantage on the dancing sword's attacks, since that comes from the condition itself rather than from anything involving the attacker's perception (or lack of).
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Hello!
So, I’m DMing Shadow of the Dragon Queen and the party is likely to find a Dancing Sword shortly. The wording for this item is “The sword uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls”.
How do people interpret that? My first thought was that it used the ability score modifier that the character attuned to it uses for their main attacks (so, Dexterity if they mostly use finesse weapons); alternatively, it’s a longsword, so would it just use Strength?
For context, the party has only one Strength-based character (a Minotaur barbarian) with the other two melee-fighters being Dexterity-based (a Kender paladin and a human sword bard). All the magic weapons that have I’ve seen in the adventure are Strength-based, so I was hoping that this might be more flexible.
As a follow-on question, if the Barbarian used it, would it benefit from their Rage bonus?
I think that means that it uses your highest Ability Score out of Strength and Dexterity... but I'm not sure
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So, the trick with this magic item is that it can be any type of sword. It is a sword that is magically enchanted in a manner that allows it to be used as described in the item description for Dancing Sword. But the damage output of that weapon is the same as if you were wielding the non-magical version of the sword in a melee attack. So, if the Dancing Sword happened to be a Greatsword, it would do slashing damage of 2d6 + STR and the weapon would have the heavy and two-handed properties, just like a non-magical Greatsword. If the Dancing Sword happened to be a Rapier, it would do piercing damage of 1d8 + (STR or DEX) and the weapon would have the finesse property, just like a non-magical Rapier. And so on.
As for your other questions, there isn't really any such thing as a character using a specific modifier for their main attacks -- that modifier is based on the weapon that they are using or the spell in question, etc. Indeed, if this item is a longsword then it would be using STR. There is nothing about this magic item that is flexible in the way that you're thinking -- if it's a longsword you don't get to have one character use STR and then have them pass it off to another character (who attunes with it) and have that character use DEX. It doesn't work that way. Whichever type of sword was enchanted determines these things. If it happens to be a type of sword with the finesse property then there is some flexibility there -- not because it's a Dancing Sword, but because it has the finesse property.
In your case, you'd have to go back and carefully read the adventure that you are running, Shadow of the Dragon Queen and see if the type of sword is specified. I'm not sure if you were just assuming that it's a longsword or if the adventure actually states this. If it does, and you are running it as is, then it's a longsword and would use STR. If the adventure doesn't specify which type of sword it is then you could roll for that randomly or you (the DM) could just pick a type when they find it.
I believe that the intent is that the sword uses your statistics to make the attack rolls, using itself. So if it's a Longsword, it lacks Finesse and thus must use your Strength score to make the attacks.
Barbarian rage is a grey area, I would rule no as it's the sword making the attack, not the barbarian.
Finally, I don't know the adventure, but unless it's critical that the sword be a Longsword, then consider changing it to a Rapier or Scimitar, so that the more dex-based characters can consider it as well! Adapting a game to suit the characters is a good excercise!
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Thanks all for your advice! I was coming to the same conclusion as the consensus here (I.e. if it’s a longsword, you use strength), but good to have some verification.
As written, I believe It would use strength. However, it doesn't change the balance of the Campaign if you give them a dancing rapier instead of a longsword. The wording of the item says that the sword, is making an attack NOT the person who activated it. Because of this, the Rage bonus would not apply, and neither would features like Reckless Attack.
If you want to give your dex based party members magic items, you can change the loot. There's no Wizards of the Coast special ops team that shows up at your door if you make edits to a pre-written campaign. They only do that if you leak unreleased MTG cards.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Good call on Rage bonus and Reckless Attack not applying to these sword attacks due to the sword doing the attacking (of course, you can use the Dancing Sword in hand to attack like a normal melee weapon, in which these bonuses would apply).
Keep in mind that these special sword attacks can be done as a bonus action so even without extra bonuses it's still really good. You can use it normally as a melee weapon with an attack action against a creature standing in front of you and then immediately toss it up and have it attack that same creature again as a bonus action while also holding a shield (vs what is possible with the offhand attack in two weapon fighting, for example). Next turn you can use your item interaction to grasp the sword again, swing it and then toss it up for the bonus action attack again, and so on. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to fight with two hands and also use this hovering sword as a 3rd weapon since you'd have to choose between two bonus actions.
I think another thing to consider is that these special sword attacks also probably should not be considered to be melee weapon attacks (maybe?), which would also disqualify features such as the Rage bonus and the Reckless Attack. It's sort of unclear though -- it isn't really specified in the item description which type of attack the sword is doing. If it's not technically a melee attack then I believe this also means that the Barbarian's Brutal Critical abilities would also be disqualified for these special sword attacks. In terms of interacting with other game features, I'm not sure if these attacks could be considered to be ranged attacks or spell attacks either -- I'm not really sure what they are. Maybe they are ranged attacks with a range of 5 feet? An unarmed strike with a predetermined damage formula? Natural weapon (a melee weapon attack after all)? How would you guys categorize these attacks for the purposes of game mechanics interactions?
I just had another thought. If you use this feature to attack an enemy the sword will then be hovering next to the enemy when your turn ends. What prevents the enemy from just grasping the sword out of the air and using it for his own non-magical melee attacks on his own turn? Weird.
The Dancing Sword is the one attacking, not you but it uses your ability score modifier for attack and damage rolls. The short sword having the finesse property use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. Without it, Strenght would be a lock.
No as written a Dancing Sword only uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls, no other bonus or extra damage roll you otherwise gain when you are the only doing so.
While not official rule source, the Dev has answered in that sense on Twitter as well;
Thanks everyone for the well thought out responses.
Following that logic RAW the Dancing Sword wouldn't even add your proficienc bonus since you're not the one attacking but i doubt many DM rule it thatw ay;
The Dancing Sword specifies that it uses your attack roll, so I think proficiency bonus would apply, as it is a part of the roll. However, it only specifies that it adds your ability score modifier to damage, not that it uses your damage roll or any other relevant modifiers.
Then again, I don't think it would significantly change the balance of the campaign if you added the rage bonus to damage.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
I remember trying to create a homebrew subclass that could animate weapons, and trying to stat out the weapon fully with rules on how to determine what happens when an enemy grabs it ended up just really bogging the whole thing down. I feel like it's best to just say, "It magically can't be grabbed". Like... if someone tries to grab it, just explain that it's like trying to push two magnets together by the same pole... some invisible force just prevents anything from getting close to the handle.
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The sword “dances” out of their grasp.
I played a College of Whispers bard who made fantastic use of a dancing rapier. My DM allowed me to use my character’s Psychic Blades feature with it, and it was super fun. So if I were DMing I would allow the wielder to use stuff like Blade Flourishes and stuff with the sword.
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Well, with the helpful feedback, our Swords Bard has gained possession of a Dancing Rapier (which seems very appropriate for a bard!).
Can it attack around cover and concealment?
A Dancing Sword fly and attack one creature of your choice within 5 feet of it so cover should apply.
If such creature in an heavily obscured area, It would be up to DM if it apply because the sword doesn't see the creature it attacks, but the attack is against a creature of your choice and use your attack roll.
About the closest thing I could compare it to would be spiritual weapon. But the spell distinctly says you are making the attack, and the dancing sword does not. The attack is happening on your turn, using your action, and your attack modifier, but the description says the sword makes the attack. It makes me wonder if it interacts at all with things like cover and concealment. Any method by which the sword perceives the target is completely unmentioned. You tell it to attack and it attacks.
I'm with Plaguescarred. I think the DM has to make a ruling because this falls outside the normal situation.
EDIT: My interpretation would be to allow the sword to attack without any regard for cover or concealment based on perception. If you tell the sword to attack an enemy in a fog cloud, it would go right over and attack without disadvantage. You don't need to know where the target is--just that the target is present and within range.
EDIT 2: In my fog cloud example, the dancing sword would actually have advantage, since it would be an unseen attacker.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Like you TexasDevin i also would likely rule that the target being heavily obscured, invisible or otherwise unseen wouldn't matter to the dancing sword's attack. If seeing was meant to be a factor i assume it would have instead said it attacks one creature of your choice you can see within 5 feet of it.
For cover on the other hand, i would allow a target to benefit from cover if the attack originates on the opposite side of the cover or if an effect specifically say it grant cover.
I think being invisible should still impose disadvantage on the dancing sword's attacks, since that comes from the condition itself rather than from anything involving the attacker's perception (or lack of).
"Not all those who wander are lost"