I have more than once as a dm had to rule if you should be able to use Counterspell on a use item. For example the helm of teleportation, its text says:
This helm has 3 charges. While wearing it, you can use an action and expend 1 charge to cast the teleport spell from it. The helm regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.
How would you guys rule if a PC wanted to use Counterspell?
Counterspell works for anything that uses the phrasing "cast a spell" or "cast a (name of spell)". The only thing that matters is that a creature needs to do this, not say a trap.
If I'm correct the spell even functions against spells cast by monster abilities (such as the mind flayer's Innate Spellcasting als long as it referred to as "spellcasting". It does not function against "magical" abilities (such as a beholder Eye Rays even if they directly refer to a spell, like its Antimagic Cone which refers to as in the antimagic field spell.
Counterspell requires seeing a creature casting a spell. While the source of the spell is irrelevant, it won't work if the spell is cast without components. Spells cast from a magic item don't require components by default, though there are exceptions (e.g. spell scrolls only waive the material components.) Counterspell also doesn't work if you can't see the target, or if the magic item creates the spell's effects without any casting (e.g. drinking a potion.)
Note that a readied spell is cast when you take the ready action, so you also can't counter a spell that was readied out of sight.
Counterspell requires seeing a creature casting a spell. While the source of the spell is irrelevant, it won't work if the spell is cast without components. Spells cast from a magic item don't require components by default, though there are exceptions (e.g. spell scrolls only waive the material components.) Counterspell also doesn't work if you can't see the target, or if the magic item creates the spell's effects without any casting (e.g. drinking a potion.)
Note that a readied spell is cast when you take the ready action, so you also can't counter a spell that was readied out of sight.
If this is correct you would not be able to use counterspell against helm of Teleportation.
Counterspell requires seeing a creature casting a spell. While the source of the spell is irrelevant, it won't work if the spell is cast without components. Spells cast from a magic item don't require components by default, though there are exceptions (e.g. spell scrolls only waive the material components.) Counterspell also doesn't work if you can't see the target, or if the magic item creates the spell's effects without any casting (e.g. drinking a potion.)
Note that a readied spell is cast when you take the ready action, so you also can't counter a spell that was readied out of sight.
If this is correct you would not be able to use counterspell against helm of Teleportation.
Since it only has a verbal component, that would be correct
Counterspell requires seeing a creature casting a spell. While the source of the spell is irrelevant, it won't work if the spell is cast without components. Spells cast from a magic item don't require components by default, though there are exceptions (e.g. spell scrolls only waive the material components.) Counterspell also doesn't work if you can't see the target, or if the magic item creates the spell's effects without any casting (e.g. drinking a potion.)
Note that a readied spell is cast when you take the ready action, so you also can't counter a spell that was readied out of sight.
Why is there a prerequisite for Counterspell that the spell is not cast without components? Where do you get this rule from?
Missing from the shorthand of the spell is : * - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
You have to see the target casting a spell, if there is no components, (VSM) you can't actually see him casting a spell. Same reason Subtle Spell allows you to bypass counterspell.
Well yeah, but only if it is a spell :) Simplest way is to let DM decide when something is a spell or not. Also, like Thain said that's what Subtle Spell is for.
DM shouldn't need to decide, it lists what the items do in the DMG. For example, on the helm of teleportation it says "you can use an actions and expend 1 charge to cast the teleport spell from it." Specifically states you are casting the spell so it can be counterspelled. Kind of like a Ring of Three Wishes or Luckblade, if you use wish to cast anything other than a level 8 spell or lower, you have that 33% chance of never being able to cast wish again, even from that same item as it still follows the spell rules (verbal too so can be counterspelled)! So be careful out there!
I'd say that the RAI is probably that seeing someone cast a spell with only verbal components still allows for a counterspell. It's very hard to explain why that shouldn't be possible. I agree, that items which cast spells without verbal, somatic and material components should not be eligible for a counterspell.
DM shouldn't need to decide, it lists what the items do in the DMG. For example, on the helm of teleportation it says "you can use an actions and expend 1 charge to cast the teleport spell from it." Specifically states you are casting the spell so it can be counterspelled.
You'd be able to counterspell it if you could see the spell being cast, but you can't. The wearer of the helmet just thinks about teleporting and it happens. They don't say any mystic words, wave their hands around or fiddle with a focus.
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
The bold text is the only text that might provide you with the fact that you can't "see" the spell being cast (other than Line of Sight or visibility issues) with a magic item. However, since wands follow these exact same rules (they are magic items therefore require no components) based on this alone you should not be able to Counterspell it. Yet Jeremy says that this is possible. If the same rules apply to say the Helmet of Teleportation (and I can't see why not) then yes, you are able to Counterspell it as long as visibility/LoS are not an issue.
This means that the only way to cast a spell, which means whenever the text says "as per the xxx spell", without it being susceptible to counterspell you need to either be out of line of sight, hidden or invisible.
The bold text is the only text that might provide you with the fact that you can't "see" the spell being cast (other than Line of Sight or visibility issues) with a magic item. However, since wands follow these exact same rules (they are magic items therefore require no components) based on this alone you should not be able to Counterspell it. Yet Jeremy says that this is possible. If the same rules apply to say the Helmet of Teleportation (and I can't see why not) then yes, you are able to Counterspell it as long as visibility/LoS are not an issue.
Counterspell does work on wands. Nothing explicitly forbids counterspell from working on a spell cast from a wand. If a wand requires you to perform a spell's components to cast a spell from it, it's subject to counterspell.
If you read between the lines a little what was being asked - and what Jeremy was responding to - is "can a spell cast from a magic item be counterspelled?" The answer to that is yes. The fact that it's coming from a magic item doesn't protect the spell from counterspells. That doesn't mean you get to ignore how counterspell works; the spell components can be an issue just as they can be for a spell cast through a class's spellcasting (e.g. a sorcerer's spell cast with subtle spell.)
The bold text is the only text that might provide you with the fact that you can't "see" the spell being cast (other than Line of Sight or visibility issues) with a magic item. However, since wands follow these exact same rules (they are magic items therefore require no components) based on this alone you should not be able to Counterspell it. Yet Jeremy says that this is possible. If the same rules apply to say the Helmet of Teleportation (and I can't see why not) then yes, you are able to Counterspell it as long as visibility/LoS are not an issue.
Counterspell does work on wands. Nothing explicitly forbids counterspell from working on a spell cast from a wand. If a wand requires you to perform a spell's components to cast a spell from it, it's subject to counterspell.
If you read between the lines a little what was being asked - and what Jeremy was responding to - is "can a spell cast from a magic item be counterspelled?" The answer to that is yes. The fact that it's coming from a magic item doesn't protect the spell from counterspells. That doesn't mean you get to ignore how counterspell works; the spell components can be an issue just as they can be for a spell cast through a class's spellcasting (e.g. a sorcerer's spell cast with subtle spell.)
I probably was a bit unclear with my comment, my apologies. What I basically meant was that if a wand is susceptible to counterspell (which it is) then there is no reason why it would not work on the helmet since both don't need any components (verbal, somatic or material), whether the spell cast does or not.
The bold text is the only text that might provide you with the fact that you can't "see" the spell being cast (other than Line of Sight or visibility issues) with a magic item. However, since wands follow these exact same rules (they are magic items therefore require no components) based on this alone you should not be able to Counterspell it. Yet Jeremy says that this is possible. If the same rules apply to say the Helmet of Teleportation (and I can't see why not) then yes, you are able to Counterspell it as long as visibility/LoS are not an issue.
Counterspell does work on wands. Nothing explicitly forbids counterspell from working on a spell cast from a wand. If a wand requires you to perform a spell's components to cast a spell from it, it's subject to counterspell.
If you read between the lines a little what was being asked - and what Jeremy was responding to - is "can a spell cast from a magic item be counterspelled?" The answer to that is yes. The fact that it's coming from a magic item doesn't protect the spell from counterspells. That doesn't mean you get to ignore how counterspell works; the spell components can be an issue just as they can be for a spell cast through a class's spellcasting (e.g. a sorcerer's spell cast with subtle spell.)
I probably was a bit unclear with my comment, my apologies. What I basically meant was that if a wand is susceptible to counterspell (which it is) then there is no reason why it would not work on the helmet since both don't need any components (verbal, somatic or material), whether the spell cast does or not.
I agree with your assessment of the tweets. Items get rid of all spell components, so the tweet contradicts the "can see casting" <=> "must have components" interpretation of Counterspell. This would also mean that you can counterspell a subtle spell, though, wouldn't it? And it would indicate that the "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell " line in Counterspell would be better written as "which you take when a creature in your line of sight and within 60 feet of you is casting a spell".
This makes Subtle Spell kind of weak. The other way of ruling would make Counterspell very weak since many monsters abilities wouldn't qualify.
I have more than once as a dm had to rule if you should be able to use Counterspell on a use item. For example the helm of teleportation, its text says:
This helm has 3 charges. While wearing it, you can use an action and expend 1 charge to cast the teleport spell from it. The helm regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.
How would you guys rule if a PC wanted to use Counterspell?
Counterspell should work against any spell casting, it doesn't matter what is the source of the casting (class ability, racial trait or item).
Super. Then it is easy to rule against when your players trying to bend rules in their favor :b
Counterspell works for anything that uses the phrasing "cast a spell" or "cast a (name of spell)". The only thing that matters is that a creature needs to do this, not say a trap.
If I'm correct the spell even functions against spells cast by monster abilities (such as the mind flayer's Innate Spellcasting als long as it referred to as "spellcasting". It does not function against "magical" abilities (such as a beholder Eye Rays even if they directly refer to a spell, like its Antimagic Cone which refers to as in the antimagic field spell.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Counterspell requires seeing a creature casting a spell. While the source of the spell is irrelevant, it won't work if the spell is cast without components. Spells cast from a magic item don't require components by default, though there are exceptions (e.g. spell scrolls only waive the material components.) Counterspell also doesn't work if you can't see the target, or if the magic item creates the spell's effects without any casting (e.g. drinking a potion.)
Note that a readied spell is cast when you take the ready action, so you also can't counter a spell that was readied out of sight.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
You need to "see" it being cast, if it has no somatic or material components you can't see it
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Missing from the shorthand of the spell is : * - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
You have to see the target casting a spell, if there is no components, (VSM) you can't actually see him casting a spell. Same reason Subtle Spell allows you to bypass counterspell.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/
From Crawford (Rules lead): Counterspell requires you to see a creature casting a spell. Nothing to perceive means no counter
I think you guys are overcomplicating this. If a creature is within 60 feet and you see them, you can use a reaction to Counterspell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well yeah, but only if it is a spell :) Simplest way is to let DM decide when something is a spell or not. Also, like Thain said that's what Subtle Spell is for.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
DM shouldn't need to decide, it lists what the items do in the DMG. For example, on the helm of teleportation it says "you can use an actions and expend 1 charge to cast the teleport spell from it." Specifically states you are casting the spell so it can be counterspelled. Kind of like a Ring of Three Wishes or Luckblade, if you use wish to cast anything other than a level 8 spell or lower, you have that 33% chance of never being able to cast wish again, even from that same item as it still follows the spell rules (verbal too so can be counterspelled)! So be careful out there!
I'd say that the RAI is probably that seeing someone cast a spell with only verbal components still allows for a counterspell. It's very hard to explain why that shouldn't be possible. I agree, that items which cast spells without verbal, somatic and material components should not be eligible for a counterspell.
I've been looking up some sage advice which deal with counterspell:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/21/does-the-counterspell-work-against-wands/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/29/counterspell-vs-innate-spell-like-ability/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/21/is-it-possible-to-counterspell-a-magic-item/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/29/can-a-caster-cast-a-spell-like-shield-or-counterspell-if-there-is-no-attack-made-against-them/
So I think it boils down to what MetagamingPigeon and Nils state :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
You'd be able to counterspell it if you could see the spell being cast, but you can't. The wearer of the helmet just thinks about teleporting and it happens. They don't say any mystic words, wave their hands around or fiddle with a focus.
From the DMG:
The bold text is the only text that might provide you with the fact that you can't "see" the spell being cast (other than Line of Sight or visibility issues) with a magic item. However, since wands follow these exact same rules (they are magic items therefore require no components) based on this alone you should not be able to Counterspell it. Yet Jeremy says that this is possible. If the same rules apply to say the Helmet of Teleportation (and I can't see why not) then yes, you are able to Counterspell it as long as visibility/LoS are not an issue.
This means that the only way to cast a spell, which means whenever the text says "as per the xxx spell", without it being susceptible to counterspell you need to either be out of line of sight, hidden or invisible.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Counterspell does work on wands. Nothing explicitly forbids counterspell from working on a spell cast from a wand. If a wand requires you to perform a spell's components to cast a spell from it, it's subject to counterspell.
If you read between the lines a little what was being asked - and what Jeremy was responding to - is "can a spell cast from a magic item be counterspelled?" The answer to that is yes. The fact that it's coming from a magic item doesn't protect the spell from counterspells. That doesn't mean you get to ignore how counterspell works; the spell components can be an issue just as they can be for a spell cast through a class's spellcasting (e.g. a sorcerer's spell cast with subtle spell.)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature