Could a Circle of the Moon druid wild shape into a crag cat at second level? This beast is a CR 1 (Storm King's Thunder). What concerns me are the abilities of the creature.
Nondetection. The cat can’t be targeted or detected by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.
Pounce. If the cat moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a claw attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the cat can make one bite attack against it as a bonus action.
Spell Turning. The cat has advantage on saving throws against any spell that targets only the cat (not an area). If the cat’s saving throw succeeds and the spell is of 7th level or lower, the spell has no effect on the cat and instead targets the caster.
While pounce is fine it seems like nondetection and spell turning are overpowered as a wild shape available to a second level druid. This is my first post to the forum and I have only played a few times so I apologize for any faux pas.
In accordance to the rules, yes, a Moon Druid could. However, a DM might not allow a druid to wild shape into a crag cat. A DM might cite the same reason you did or choose to follow a variant rule presented in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Technically, a Circle of the Moon druid can wildshape into a Crag Cat at level 2, since it respects the restrictions (beast of CR 1). Still, the druid must have seen the cat at least once to use that shape.
As a DM, if you feel that overpowered, you could change the type of the cat from beast to monstrosity, excluding it from possible wildshapes.
Thank you. How can it be determined whether your character has seen any given beast? Would a backstory cover this? I assume that common beasts (e.g bear, wolf) have already been seen by a character.
If you are a druid who grew up in the arctic, you may have only seen beasts with the Arctic environment tag. The rule in XGtE provides an amount of time you would need to spend with the animal but that is a highly optional rule.
Edit: I check the optional rule, it says nothing about time spent with the animal, it only supplies lists of possible creatures.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Yes, backstory and where the druid lived before the adventure. I believe the Crag Cat is quite a particular beast of the mountains, it is a very unlikely encounter.
Though this only applies tangentially to your question, the same situation sort of comes up once a spellcaster gets access to Polymorph and starts drooling over Mammoths and dinosaurs. The more outlandish the beast, the easier it is for a DM to say that the character has never encountered such a beast. Whenever I'm playing a character that may get access to shape changing spells I generally formulate a backstory that incorporates exposure to a wide range of beasts, or I do downtime research into such creatures. And obviously if you feel certain beasts are OP for your game, use your DM veto power ;) But it helps to discuss this with the player in question rather than just drop the, "Nope" on him/her. You can also let the player know that you're tweaking/nerfing the creature to exclude a feature for game balance. They can always choose to go another route.
Lastly, borrowing from a theme I've picked up from many of the DM's who post here, if your players want access to those creatures, they should expect to have to face them as well. I'd not be so quick to want to polymorph into a T-Rex only to face one later on.
My recommendation is to compile a wildshape list of beasts you qualify for that you think your character, with their backstory, would have run into. Then, give your DM both the backstory, and the list. The DM can then choose to nix anything you have on the list, at their option. When you gain access to new wildshapes, send the new possible options that would make sense with your backstory and including beasts you've now seen in the game (if any) and again let the DM have the opportunity to nix any they don't think your character would have seen. Did that with my DM for my Moon Druid, and she was happy with that and was willing to work with me on choices.
I generally have a Druid a 2 "Terrain Types" and assume any creature under those terrain times have already been seen.
That number of Terrain Types goes up as the party explores. Like if the party starts spending time in a city, then the Druid gains Urban. It's WAY easier then keeping an Excel Spreadsheet of every single "Beast" a druid may or may not have met.
Though this only applies tangentially to your question, the same situation sort of comes up once a spellcaster gets access to Polymorph and starts drooling over Mammoths and dinosaurs. The more outlandish the beast, the easier it is for a DM to say that the character has never encountered such a beast. Whenever I'm playing a character that may get access to shape changing spells I generally formulate a backstory that incorporates exposure to a wide range of beasts, or I do downtime research into such creatures. And obviously if you feel certain beasts are OP for your game, use your DM veto power ;) But it helps to discuss this with the player in question rather than just drop the, "Nope" on him/her. You can also let the player know that you're tweaking/nerfing the creature to exclude a feature for game balance. They can always choose to go another route.
Lastly, borrowing from a theme I've picked up from many of the DM's who post here, if your players want access to those creatures, they should expect to have to face them as well. I'd not be so quick to want to polymorph into a T-Rex only to face one later on.
Weirdly, Polymorph and animal shapes do not specifically require you to have seen the creatures before, however a Druid's Wild Shape and the ShapeChange spell do require to have seen it.
That's the RAW version - how a DM interprets it is different and should be discussed between the caster and the DM at character creation.
Agreed, but this is about as much RAI as it gets. I mean how would the magic work if the caster had no knowledge of the creature?
Player: I cast Polymorph on Dave and turn him into a Triceratops!
DM: And has your character ever seen one?
Player: Nope, but it's on the list!
DM: Okay, but if you've never seen one, how would you know what your turning Dave into?
Player: I have no idea.
I mean, let's be wizards for a moment. Are we really casting a shapechanging spell with zero idea of what the new form looks like? How would we know if it worked? What if it was a fanged bunny instead of the dinosaur you're expecting, how would you know the difference?
Theoretically, the wizard could have seen a picture in a book. Again, it comes down to discussion with the DM during character creation on what has been seen and how/where. He could have been gifted some sort of tome of beasts by their master.
If the caster picks something that has not been discussed/agreed as having been seen, then it is up to the DM to decide what creature the target actually turns into (maybe force them to do a nature check or something). The results could be very interesting.
For those who remember/love B5 -
Londo Mollari: But this…this, this, this is like… being nibbled to death by, uh…Pah! What are those Earth creatures called? Feathers, long bill, webbed feet…go "quack".
Special abilities are always a weird one when it comes to Shape shifting, and you typically could rule a number of ways the main ones I see are:
A. The druid takes the form of the beast . This implies that it takes all physical properties only (reason why they don't gain legendary and lair actions as well, nor do the mental stats convert over onto the druid either, even if they would improve)
B. The druid becomes the beast, gaining all physical and mystical/supernatural abilities along with it.
Personally I tend to go with A; form ('magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before'), thus the non-detection and spell turning wouldn't be gained because they are more about the mysticism/supernatural of the creature not it's form. The character is a druid in the form of a beast, not the beast itself.
It would be fine however for a DM to rule otherwise.
Though this only applies tangentially to your question, the same situation sort of comes up once a spellcaster gets access to Polymorph and starts drooling over Mammoths and dinosaurs. The more outlandish the beast, the easier it is for a DM to say that the character has never encountered such a beast. Whenever I'm playing a character that may get access to shape changing spells I generally formulate a backstory that incorporates exposure to a wide range of beasts, or I do downtime research into such creatures. And obviously if you feel certain beasts are OP for your game, use your DM veto power ;) But it helps to discuss this with the player in question rather than just drop the, "Nope" on him/her. You can also let the player know that you're tweaking/nerfing the creature to exclude a feature for game balance. They can always choose to go another route.
Lastly, borrowing from a theme I've picked up from many of the DM's who post here, if your players want access to those creatures, they should expect to have to face them as well. I'd not be so quick to want to polymorph into a T-Rex only to face one later on.
Weirdly, Polymorph and animal shapes do not specifically require you to have seen the creatures before, however a Druid's Wild Shape and the ShapeChange spell do require to have seen it.
That's the RAW version - how a DM interprets it is different and should be discussed between the caster and the DM at character creation.
Another difference I just noticed (as RAW) - Polymorph and Animal Shapes do not explicitly state that the beast you turn into is unable to use legendary actions/lair actions, whilst both wild shape and Shapechange do. The RAW difference so far appear to be:
The fact that Wild Shape and Shapechange state that it is not possible tu use Legendary, Lair actions and Regional effects is redundant.
In the section of the MM, it is stated that if a creature assumes the shape of a different creature, legendary, lair actions and Regional effects are not carried over in the new shape.
I wouldn't be too concerned about letting a druid turn into a crag cat. Nondetection could be situationally useful, however it requires maintaining wild shape which comes with disadvantages of its own, such as lack of speech and equipment handling. Staying in wild shape long term to avoid magical scrying would be difficult and as soon as the druid assumes their normal form, you can have the divination they're avoiding ping them.
Spell turning is a very nice effect. The Ring of Spell Turning is a legendary item. Needing to maintain wild shape, again, could make this slightly less useful than having the ring in caster form. Against casters, this is a nice benefit for the druid and gives the player an opportunity to do cool stuff, but there are all sorts of counters if you feel that the druid is dominating the scene too often.
Plus, if your player hasn't seen a crag cat (I expect most haven't) but wants to turn into one, they've just given you a free quest hook to go in search of the rare animal.
Could a Circle of the Moon druid wild shape into a crag cat at second level? This beast is a CR 1 (Storm King's Thunder). What concerns me are the abilities of the creature.
Nondetection. The cat can’t be targeted or detected by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.
Pounce. If the cat moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a claw attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the cat can make one bite attack against it as a bonus action.
Spell Turning. The cat has advantage on saving throws against any spell that targets only the cat (not an area). If the cat’s saving throw succeeds and the spell is of 7th level or lower, the spell has no effect on the cat and instead targets the caster.
While pounce is fine it seems like nondetection and spell turning are overpowered as a wild shape available to a second level druid. This is my first post to the forum and I have only played a few times so I apologize for any faux pas.
In accordance to the rules, yes, a Moon Druid could. However, a DM might not allow a druid to wild shape into a crag cat. A DM might cite the same reason you did or choose to follow a variant rule presented in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
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"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Technically, a Circle of the Moon druid can wildshape into a Crag Cat at level 2, since it respects the restrictions (beast of CR 1). Still, the druid must have seen the cat at least once to use that shape.
As a DM, if you feel that overpowered, you could change the type of the cat from beast to monstrosity, excluding it from possible wildshapes.
Thank you. How can it be determined whether your character has seen any given beast? Would a backstory cover this? I assume that common beasts (e.g bear, wolf) have already been seen by a character.
If you are a druid who grew up in the arctic, you may have only seen beasts with the Arctic environment tag. The rule in XGtE provides an amount of time you would need to spend with the animal but that is a highly optional rule.
Edit: I check the optional rule, it says nothing about time spent with the animal, it only supplies lists of possible creatures.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Yes, backstory and where the druid lived before the adventure. I believe the Crag Cat is quite a particular beast of the mountains, it is a very unlikely encounter.
Though this only applies tangentially to your question, the same situation sort of comes up once a spellcaster gets access to Polymorph and starts drooling over Mammoths and dinosaurs. The more outlandish the beast, the easier it is for a DM to say that the character has never encountered such a beast. Whenever I'm playing a character that may get access to shape changing spells I generally formulate a backstory that incorporates exposure to a wide range of beasts, or I do downtime research into such creatures. And obviously if you feel certain beasts are OP for your game, use your DM veto power ;) But it helps to discuss this with the player in question rather than just drop the, "Nope" on him/her. You can also let the player know that you're tweaking/nerfing the creature to exclude a feature for game balance. They can always choose to go another route.
Lastly, borrowing from a theme I've picked up from many of the DM's who post here, if your players want access to those creatures, they should expect to have to face them as well. I'd not be so quick to want to polymorph into a T-Rex only to face one later on.
My recommendation is to compile a wildshape list of beasts you qualify for that you think your character, with their backstory, would have run into. Then, give your DM both the backstory, and the list. The DM can then choose to nix anything you have on the list, at their option. When you gain access to new wildshapes, send the new possible options that would make sense with your backstory and including beasts you've now seen in the game (if any) and again let the DM have the opportunity to nix any they don't think your character would have seen. Did that with my DM for my Moon Druid, and she was happy with that and was willing to work with me on choices.
I generally have a Druid a 2 "Terrain Types" and assume any creature under those terrain times have already been seen.
That number of Terrain Types goes up as the party explores. Like if the party starts spending time in a city, then the Druid gains Urban.
It's WAY easier then keeping an Excel Spreadsheet of every single "Beast" a druid may or may not have met.
I just saw https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/241-druid-101-a-beginners-guide-to-channeling-natures
More good advice.
Weirdly, Polymorph and animal shapes do not specifically require you to have seen the creatures before, however a Druid's Wild Shape and the ShapeChange spell do require to have seen it.
That's the RAW version - how a DM interprets it is different and should be discussed between the caster and the DM at character creation.
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Agreed, but this is about as much RAI as it gets. I mean how would the magic work if the caster had no knowledge of the creature?
Player: I cast Polymorph on Dave and turn him into a Triceratops!
DM: And has your character ever seen one?
Player: Nope, but it's on the list!
DM: Okay, but if you've never seen one, how would you know what your turning Dave into?
Player: I have no idea.
I mean, let's be wizards for a moment. Are we really casting a shapechanging spell with zero idea of what the new form looks like? How would we know if it worked? What if it was a fanged bunny instead of the dinosaur you're expecting, how would you know the difference?
Theoretically, the wizard could have seen a picture in a book. Again, it comes down to discussion with the DM during character creation on what has been seen and how/where. He could have been gifted some sort of tome of beasts by their master.
If the caster picks something that has not been discussed/agreed as having been seen, then it is up to the DM to decide what creature the target actually turns into (maybe force them to do a nature check or something). The results could be very interesting.
For those who remember/love B5 -
Londo Mollari: But this…this, this, this is like… being nibbled to death by, uh…Pah! What are those Earth creatures called? Feathers, long bill, webbed feet…go "quack".
Vir Cotto: Cats.
Londo: Cats! I'm being nibbled to death by cats.
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One other thing to me is that in D&D Druid Circles have a lot of fluff, but almost don't actual exist.
I for one have never in any game ever used the Druidic Language.
As part of creating an idea of community. What would druids do as a community?
Wildshape offs.
In my head cannon druids use Wild Shape to share and preserve knowledge of animals from far flung and different lands.
Special abilities are always a weird one when it comes to Shape shifting, and you typically could rule a number of ways the main ones I see are:
A. The druid takes the form of the beast . This implies that it takes all physical properties only (reason why they don't gain legendary and lair actions as well, nor do the mental stats convert over onto the druid either, even if they would improve)
B. The druid becomes the beast, gaining all physical and mystical/supernatural abilities along with it.
Personally I tend to go with A; form ('magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before'), thus the non-detection and spell turning wouldn't be gained because they are more about the mysticism/supernatural of the creature not it's form. The character is a druid in the form of a beast, not the beast itself.
It would be fine however for a DM to rule otherwise.
- Loswaith
Another difference I just noticed (as RAW) - Polymorph and Animal Shapes do not explicitly state that the beast you turn into is unable to use legendary actions/lair actions, whilst both wild shape and Shapechange do. The RAW difference so far appear to be:
Polymorph and Animal Shapes
Not required to have seen the creature
Mental ability scores are those of the new creature
Able to use lair/legendary actions if the creature has them
Not able to use class/racial features
Wild Shape and Shapechange
Required to have seen the creature before at least once
Keep casters mental scores
Not able to use legendary/lair actions
Able to use class/racial features if the new form is physically able to do so.
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The fact that Wild Shape and Shapechange state that it is not possible tu use Legendary, Lair actions and Regional effects is redundant.
In the section of the MM, it is stated that if a creature assumes the shape of a different creature, legendary, lair actions and Regional effects are not carried over in the new shape.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/mm/introduction#LegendaryCreatures
With Polymorph and Animal Shapes it is not possible to use Legendary, Lair actions and Regional Effects.
Are the crag cat's abilities legendary, lair, or regional?
None of those, they are simply normal traits of the beast.
I wouldn't be too concerned about letting a druid turn into a crag cat. Nondetection could be situationally useful, however it requires maintaining wild shape which comes with disadvantages of its own, such as lack of speech and equipment handling. Staying in wild shape long term to avoid magical scrying would be difficult and as soon as the druid assumes their normal form, you can have the divination they're avoiding ping them.
Spell turning is a very nice effect. The Ring of Spell Turning is a legendary item. Needing to maintain wild shape, again, could make this slightly less useful than having the ring in caster form. Against casters, this is a nice benefit for the druid and gives the player an opportunity to do cool stuff, but there are all sorts of counters if you feel that the druid is dominating the scene too often.
Sage advice is that the Crag Cat's details are correct but Jeremy provides the same suggestion as filcat: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/783445319576977408
Plus, if your player hasn't seen a crag cat (I expect most haven't) but wants to turn into one, they've just given you a free quest hook to go in search of the rare animal.