Does anyone have any thoughts on why you can't use the traditional parrying dagger with a rapier? My understanding is -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- the rapier was kinda made for the parrying dagger, and the combination made it pretty dominant in the Renaissance. It just makes no sense to me that you would not allow the combination given the history of the weapon.
Dnd weapons are more like representations of how they're depicted in pop culture rather than historically accurately. Thus, they're called longswords, not arming swords, and rapiers evoke more Inigo Montoya or The Three Musketeers swishing and swashbuckling elegantly about with flashy moves rather than slow, deliberate moves like in Dune.
D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game. 5e came up with a unified set of rules that was sufficiently detailed to captured the imagination and sufficiently simple to retain players and DMs. It is not a simulation. I believe the original D&D started off as a medieval warfare simulation with miniatures (Chainmail (?)). However, many folks don't enjoy highly detailed combat simulations since the rules are too heavy - so the game moved away from that approach.
Items like the weapon to hit AC modifiers table from AD&D that tabulated the varying effects of using each weapon against different AC values were dropped in later editions (where there appeared to be an implicit assumption that stronger AC values were mostly due to heavier armor). In later editions, even the number and type of weapons was reduced. In 5e, there are now mostly a series of weapons more defined by the size of the damage die (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, 2d6) the type of damage (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) and whether they are classed as simple or martial - than by individual weapon details and capabilities.
The result is, if you want to have a fighter using a rapier and main gauche to do anything other than make attacks with the two weapons (requiring the dual wielder feat), then you need to use house rules. The simplest house rule would be something like adding an option to use your reaction to add +2 AC against one attack as a parry (which some monster stat blocks already include) if you have appropriate weapons equipped.
However, keep in mind that the Dual Wielder feat gives a +1 to AC, which may, in part, reflect the use of the second weapon to regularly parry attacks resulting in an overall increase in AC. So in some sense, the use of the second weapon to parry, if the characters has the training (Dual Wielder feat) is already factored into the feat itself by the additional AC granted.
For many, it is just an extra detail that adds unneeded complexity while for others it is the kind of detail that makes the fight feel more immersive. Go with whatever you and your table want to use :)
So, to a certain degree your ability to parry in 5e is reflected by your DEX mod to AC- thus light armor that allows full freedom of movement allows the full mod, while larger armor sets allows for lower or no bonus there. There's also a few class or subclass features as well as a feat that specifically invoke the idea of parrying. Finally, part of the principle of bounded accuracy is controlling the baseline AC ranges for different classes and weapon arrangements; high damage arrangements like TWF or classes that are meant to be fragile are blocked from having easy access to AC boosting effects like an off hand item that increases AC by design.
If you’re just looking for the flavor of it, go short sword and dagger mechanically, and say your short sword has a thin blade and looks like a rapier. Otherwise, as others have said, there’s the dual wielder feat.
Does anyone have any thoughts on why you can't use the traditional parrying dagger with a rapier? My understanding is -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- the rapier was kinda made for the parrying dagger, and the combination made it pretty dominant in the Renaissance. It just makes no sense to me that you would not allow the combination given the history of the weapon.
Huzzah! Jack
This sounds like a Swords bard (Defensive Flourish for the AC boost) with the Dual Wielder feat to me
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thank you for your thoughts on the rapier and parrying dagger combo. Yes, I know that you can take the duel wielder feat and use the two together. I played the game when we had to look up THAC0. I know the mechanics of it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the weapon rapier AND parrying dagger, mandating that any rapier user be able to use both. But, that is just me and my fixation or pet peeve or obsession or whatever you want to call it. I don't understand why anyone would call a sword a rapier and not mandate the parrying dagger. They go together like lenses and glasses frames. In my mind, at least, you don't have one without the other.
Thank you for your thoughts on the rapier and parrying dagger combo. Yes, I know that you can take the duel wielder feat and use the two together. I played the game when we had to look up THAC0. I know the mechanics of it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the weapon rapier AND parrying dagger, mandating that any rapier user be able to use both. But, that is just me and my fixation or pet peeve or obsession or whatever you want to call it. I don't understand why anyone would call a sword a rapier and not mandate the parrying dagger. They go together like lenses and glasses frames. In my mind, at least, you don't have one without the other.
Huzzah! Jack
The way I see it, anyone can use the combo. It's flavor really. I have a swashbuckler who has a rapier and dagger and he regularly incorporates both into combat narrative, even if he is only using the rapier and his armor mechanically.
Thank you for your thoughts on the rapier and parrying dagger combo. Yes, I know that you can take the duel wielder feat and use the two together. I played the game when we had to look up THAC0. I know the mechanics of it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the weapon rapier AND parrying dagger, mandating that any rapier user be able to use both. But, that is just me and my fixation or pet peeve or obsession or whatever you want to call it. I don't understand why anyone would call a sword a rapier and not mandate the parrying dagger. They go together like lenses and glasses frames. In my mind, at least, you don't have one without the other.
Huzzah! Jack
Blame Errol Flynn? The classic movie trope is to wield a rapier or other dueling blade solo
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is a "good" solution, but sometimes you're looking for the two attacks. The Duel Wielder feat takes care of it, but only at level 4 and above. It's my personal itch, you know?
That is a "good" solution, but sometimes you're looking for the two attacks. The Duel Wielder feat takes care of it, but only at level 4 and above. It's my personal itch, you know?
Flavor is a free action. Attack once, twice, three times if one wishes. Mechanically, only one attack 'counts' but Duel Wilder can be reasoned to be improved and honed skill with the blade. I don't often do a one attack roll = one swing of the sword. I juice up the action of my players. Level 1 characters aren't often considered 'Masters of the blade' though, so I don't really think this is an issue that needs to be fixed mechanically.
Sorry for necro'ing a dead thread from 8 months ago, but I am just getting back into DND after a pause (since ADND/2nd edition). I want to make sure I'm not 'cheating' here.
I have a level 1 Rogue, intending to become a Swashbuckler at level 3. I got Alert feat from my background, and chose Magic Initiate: Wizard as the origin feat I got from being a standard human)... I just list those to say I have nothing that affects fighting styles or anything like that. I do have weapon mastery for both rapier and dagger.
My question is, at level 1, can I wield the rapier and the dagger? And due to the nick mastery on the dagger, does that mean I swing with both as part of my standard attack action? (and related to the above questions about rapiers vs. shortswords, would it be a different answer if it was a shortsword instead?)
And further, with the Vex mastery on Rapier, does it work such that during attack action, I would swing with Rapier, due to Vex, then when I swing with Dagger it would have advantage and still just happen as part of the attack action, thus freeing up the Bonus Action for other things?
No, you cannot TWF with a rapier and dagger unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, and that won’t enable Nick because Nick specifically interacts with the use of the Light weapon property, whereas while Dual Wielder does check for Light it doesn’t use the property.
If you used a shortsword, then yes you would be able to use Nick to make both attacks with your Attack Action, because you would meet the Nick requirement of first attacking with a Light weapon. And finally, yes Vex will give a TWF attack advantage.
Thank you for your thoughts on the rapier and parrying dagger combo. Yes, I know that you can take the duel wielder feat and use the two together. I played the game when we had to look up THAC0. I know the mechanics of it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the weapon rapier AND parrying dagger, mandating that any rapier user be able to use both. But, that is just me and my fixation or pet peeve or obsession or whatever you want to call it. I don't understand why anyone would call a sword a rapier and not mandate the parrying dagger. They go together like lenses and glasses frames. In my mind, at least, you don't have one without the other.
Except they don't? Certainly not exclusively. The Rapier is a class in modern day fencing and does not use a parrying dagger. The rapier also was never a battlefield weapon, D&D logically shouldn't include it at all because fighting a monster with rapier (with/without parry dagger) is ludicrous historically. The rapier was and still is a dueling / sport weapon. Also, parrying daggers were not use offensively for the most part, hence the name "parrying dagger" so being unable to two-weapon fight with them makes sense, the only thing that is missing is that by default holding a second weapon should probably give you a +1 AC bonus but in D&D you need a feat for that.
Howdy y'all!
Does anyone have any thoughts on why you can't use the traditional parrying dagger with a rapier? My understanding is -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- the rapier was kinda made for the parrying dagger, and the combination made it pretty dominant in the Renaissance. It just makes no sense to me that you would not allow the combination given the history of the weapon.
Huzzah!
Jack
You can always wield a rapier and a dagger and attack with either weapon in combat with the Attack action, Extra Attack etc..
The rapier is otherwise not light enough to Two-Weapon Fighting with unless you have the Dual Welder feat.
Dnd weapons are more like representations of how they're depicted in pop culture rather than historically accurately. Thus, they're called longswords, not arming swords, and rapiers evoke more Inigo Montoya or The Three Musketeers swishing and swashbuckling elegantly about with flashy moves rather than slow, deliberate moves like in Dune.
That's what house rules are for?
D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game. 5e came up with a unified set of rules that was sufficiently detailed to captured the imagination and sufficiently simple to retain players and DMs. It is not a simulation. I believe the original D&D started off as a medieval warfare simulation with miniatures (Chainmail (?)). However, many folks don't enjoy highly detailed combat simulations since the rules are too heavy - so the game moved away from that approach.
Items like the weapon to hit AC modifiers table from AD&D that tabulated the varying effects of using each weapon against different AC values were dropped in later editions (where there appeared to be an implicit assumption that stronger AC values were mostly due to heavier armor). In later editions, even the number and type of weapons was reduced. In 5e, there are now mostly a series of weapons more defined by the size of the damage die (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, 2d6) the type of damage (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) and whether they are classed as simple or martial - than by individual weapon details and capabilities.
The result is, if you want to have a fighter using a rapier and main gauche to do anything other than make attacks with the two weapons (requiring the dual wielder feat), then you need to use house rules. The simplest house rule would be something like adding an option to use your reaction to add +2 AC against one attack as a parry (which some monster stat blocks already include) if you have appropriate weapons equipped.
However, keep in mind that the Dual Wielder feat gives a +1 to AC, which may, in part, reflect the use of the second weapon to regularly parry attacks resulting in an overall increase in AC. So in some sense, the use of the second weapon to parry, if the characters has the training (Dual Wielder feat) is already factored into the feat itself by the additional AC granted.
For many, it is just an extra detail that adds unneeded complexity while for others it is the kind of detail that makes the fight feel more immersive. Go with whatever you and your table want to use :)
So, to a certain degree your ability to parry in 5e is reflected by your DEX mod to AC- thus light armor that allows full freedom of movement allows the full mod, while larger armor sets allows for lower or no bonus there. There's also a few class or subclass features as well as a feat that specifically invoke the idea of parrying. Finally, part of the principle of bounded accuracy is controlling the baseline AC ranges for different classes and weapon arrangements; high damage arrangements like TWF or classes that are meant to be fragile are blocked from having easy access to AC boosting effects like an off hand item that increases AC by design.
If you’re just looking for the flavor of it, go short sword and dagger mechanically, and say your short sword has a thin blade and looks like a rapier. Otherwise, as others have said, there’s the dual wielder feat.
This sounds like a Swords bard (Defensive Flourish for the AC boost) with the Dual Wielder feat to me
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Howdy y'all!
Thank you for your thoughts on the rapier and parrying dagger combo. Yes, I know that you can take the duel wielder feat and use the two together. I played the game when we had to look up THAC0. I know the mechanics of it. I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the weapon rapier AND parrying dagger, mandating that any rapier user be able to use both. But, that is just me and my fixation or pet peeve or obsession or whatever you want to call it. I don't understand why anyone would call a sword a rapier and not mandate the parrying dagger. They go together like lenses and glasses frames. In my mind, at least, you don't have one without the other.
Huzzah!
Jack
The way I see it, anyone can use the combo. It's flavor really. I have a swashbuckler who has a rapier and dagger and he regularly incorporates both into combat narrative, even if he is only using the rapier and his armor mechanically.
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Blame Errol Flynn? The classic movie trope is to wield a rapier or other dueling blade solo
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Howdy Erik!
That is a "good" solution, but sometimes you're looking for the two attacks. The Duel Wielder feat takes care of it, but only at level 4 and above. It's my personal itch, you know?
From that era? I blame everything on Shirley Temple.
Jack
Having been a student of fencing, I never got the epee. Foil and saber, sure, but the epee was just a sewing machine.
Jack
Flavor is a free action. Attack once, twice, three times if one wishes. Mechanically, only one attack 'counts' but Duel Wilder can be reasoned to be improved and honed skill with the blade. I don't often do a one attack roll = one swing of the sword. I juice up the action of my players. Level 1 characters aren't often considered 'Masters of the blade' though, so I don't really think this is an issue that needs to be fixed mechanically.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
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You could get a free starting feat.
Sorry for necro'ing a dead thread from 8 months ago, but I am just getting back into DND after a pause (since ADND/2nd edition). I want to make sure I'm not 'cheating' here.
I have a level 1 Rogue, intending to become a Swashbuckler at level 3. I got Alert feat from my background, and chose Magic Initiate: Wizard as the origin feat I got from being a standard human)... I just list those to say I have nothing that affects fighting styles or anything like that. I do have weapon mastery for both rapier and dagger.
My question is, at level 1, can I wield the rapier and the dagger? And due to the nick mastery on the dagger, does that mean I swing with both as part of my standard attack action? (and related to the above questions about rapiers vs. shortswords, would it be a different answer if it was a shortsword instead?)
And further, with the Vex mastery on Rapier, does it work such that during attack action, I would swing with Rapier, due to Vex, then when I swing with Dagger it would have advantage and still just happen as part of the attack action, thus freeing up the Bonus Action for other things?
Apologies if these are obvious/newbie questions.
No, you cannot TWF with a rapier and dagger unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, and that won’t enable Nick because Nick specifically interacts with the use of the Light weapon property, whereas while Dual Wielder does check for Light it doesn’t use the property.
If you used a shortsword, then yes you would be able to use Nick to make both attacks with your Attack Action, because you would meet the Nick requirement of first attacking with a Light weapon. And finally, yes Vex will give a TWF attack advantage.
The_Ace_of_Rogues gave you the answer, and that's probably all you need.
But if it's useful for you, this video is a summary about the interaction between the Light Property, the Dual Wielder feat, the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, and the Nick Weapon Mastery: Why You Get 4 Attacks a Round by Level 5 in Dungeons & Dragons 2024 | D&D 2024 Rules Update
Also, here's a nice article on D&D Beyond: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook.
Thank you both, phenomenally helpful! Going to go watch the video now as well.
Except they don't? Certainly not exclusively. The Rapier is a class in modern day fencing and does not use a parrying dagger. The rapier also was never a battlefield weapon, D&D logically shouldn't include it at all because fighting a monster with rapier (with/without parry dagger) is ludicrous historically. The rapier was and still is a dueling / sport weapon. Also, parrying daggers were not use offensively for the most part, hence the name "parrying dagger" so being unable to two-weapon fight with them makes sense, the only thing that is missing is that by default holding a second weapon should probably give you a +1 AC bonus but in D&D you need a feat for that.