Perhaps an odd question. Still not much experience as a DM. Starting at low character levels the players don't get much access to magic items. But as players level up it becomes possible. What would be the guidelines for allowing access to magic items? I imagine it would depend upon item's classification, common, uncommon, rare, etc. I've read DMG a couple of times cover to cover, and I think it's in there. but now I have no idea how to find that again, and forum search isn't getting me anything. 🤷♂️
In the DMG, what you're looking for is in Chapter 7, under the Magic Item section. It's a chart that gives ideas of what level to give what rarity items.
Basically, it recommends common and uncommon in Teir 1, rare in T2, very rare t3, and legendary in t4.
More specifically, in early levels think mostly about consumables -- potions, scrolls, single use type things. It can also be nice to start handing out magic weapons to the martials around the time the characters start running into monsters that are resistant to nonmagical b/p/s damage. Personally, I like to give them a couple fights against the resistant monsters before they get the items, so they can more appreciate the power bump when they have weapons that start working better. Others like to give the weapons first.
Excellent! Thank you! So my memory isn't totally toast! 🤪I thought there was something in there but I was having a hell of a time with coming up with search terms that would generate what I needed.
Tiers of Play in chapter 1 however gives a much lower level of magic items when starting a campaign.
There is also often a large disparity between the power of items and their rarity. An uncommon flying broom or winged boots are more powerful than very rare horseshoes of the zephyr or a vicious weapon (rare) does less damage on average than a +1 weapon of the same type (uncommon).
"Tiers of Play" another good reference for the question at hand. Thanks! Oh and yes as part of figuring this out I too noticed some discrepancies between how rare an item might be and how powerful said item actually is in play.
Reality is it doesn't really matter, there are high magic and low magic campaigns, the trick is to keep the players roughly equal in power / magic item power and to balance the monsters to be a challenge for the party without overpowering them. Also be aware that things like flight can remove many of the obsticles faced by lower level parties and the DM needs to be aware of that and set different challenges (though this can sometimes players get access to this through character choice such as being a flying race)
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic. 5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting.
THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic.
5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting. THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
The game isn’t quite designed around the party not having any magic items, nor do all classes automatically include features that grant characters the ability to overcome resistance or immunity to nonmagical attacks. The game is balanced around to allow for PCs to have at least some magic items, even if only the bare minimum. That means they designed do expect PCs to have access to a modest number of healing potions (especially in Tier-1) and some other consumables (magic ammo, scrolls, and other potions) that only provide a temporary or limited use benefit, and for most martial characters to have at least some form of magic weapon available at around the turn of Tier-2. That is to say at least something like a weapon of warning or weapon, +1, or at least a moon touched sword. While it’s true that monks get magical attacks built directly into their base class, the rest don’t. They may have some features that allow them to add magical damage onto mundane attacks (like Divine Smite), or access to spells that can (like hail of thorns), but those all have limits to how many times they can be used. Fighters, barbarians and rogues have no such inherent features or spell access at all. Some subclasses for those classes have such features, but if the game were truly designed presuming absolute no access to magic weaponry, then those base classes would have such features and not rely on a handful of subclasses to carry the load.
For PCs to effectively use mind control as you describe, they have to get away with it. That means either guaranteed private access to the target, or the ability to cast such spells without others noticing. So there are limits to how effective such tactics can be regardless of save DC, or else they would be used by most parties as often as possible, and they aren’t. The designers are aware of the potential for abuse that DC boosting magic items present, that’s why there are so few of them compared to items with set DCs or that only boost spell attacks. Add to that the existence of other magic items that can preclude some magics working at all, and other game mechanics that allow monsters and NPCs to either gain advantage on such saves or otherwise simply be immune to them entirely.
I hear people talk about how game-breaking PC flight is and I have to laugh. If flight is truly that game breaking for you then be sure to end your campaigns before the party ever hits 7th level. Fly is only a 3rd-level spell after all. Can the ability to fly make certain challenges relatively inconsequential for a party to overcome? Sure, absolutely. Is that really a problem? Not in my opinion, no. For one thing, it’s kinda hard to do as you suggest and sit 600’ above the enemy and fire arrows at them if they’re in a dungeon with 10-20-foot high ceilings. An as for those challenges that flight makes easy to overcome (like cliffs, ravines, etc.), that just means that a DM has an opportunity to provide more difficult and interesting challenges for them to overcome instead of leaning on such mundane things like crutches.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
Keep in mind that most mind control spells have sharp limits on what can be accomplished with them, particularly the subtle ones. Modify Memory very specifically says that if the inserted memory is out of keeping with the target's alignment/personality it will be discounted by the target, and Suggestion requires you make a "reasonable-sounding" course of action, which gives the DM latitude to nix anything particularly extreme, especially if you try and slap it on someone who is opposed to you. And that's setting aside the narrative/worldbuilding aspect of how a ruler in a high magic world would function; they and their subordinates would be aware that such things exist and would both take measures to prevent such a thing from occurring and quickly wonder if such magic is in play if someone started acting out of character.
Keep in mind that most mind control spells have sharp limits on what can be accomplished with them, particularly the subtle ones. Modify Memory very specifically says that if the inserted memory is out of keeping with the target's alignment/personality it will be discounted by the target, and Suggestion requires you make a "reasonable-sounding" course of action, which gives the DM latitude to nix anything particularly extreme, especially if you try and slap it on someone who is opposed to you. And that's setting aside the narrative/worldbuilding aspect of how a ruler in a high magic world would function; they and their subordinates would be aware that such things exist and would both take measures to prevent such a thing from occurring and quickly wonder if such magic is in play if someone started acting out of character.
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic.
5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting. THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
The game isn’t quite designed around the party not having any magic items, nor do all classes automatically include features that grant characters the ability to overcome resistance or immunity to nonmagical attacks. The game is balanced around to allow for PCs to have at least some magic items, even if only the bare minimum. That means they designed do expect PCs to have access to a modest number of healing potions (especially in Tier-1) and some other consumables (magic ammo, scrolls, and other potions) that only provide a temporary or limited use benefit, and for most martial characters to have at least some form of magic weapon available at around the turn of Tier-2. That is to say at least something like a weapon of warning or weapon, +1, or at least a moon touched sword. While it’s true that monks get magical attacks built directly into their base class, the rest don’t. They may have some features that allow them to add magical damage onto mundane attacks (like Divine Smite), or access to spells that can (like hail of thorns), but those all have limits to how many times they can be used. Fighters, barbarians and rogues have no such inherent features or spell access at all. Some subclasses for those classes have such features, but if the game were truly designed presuming absolute no access to magic weaponry, then those base classes would have such features and not rely on a handful of subclasses to carry the load.
For PCs to effectively use mind control as you describe, they have to get away with it. That means either guaranteed private access to the target, or the ability to cast such spells without others noticing. So there are limits to how effective such tactics can be regardless of save DC, or else they would be used by most parties as often as possible, and they aren’t. The designers are aware of the potential for abuse that DC boosting magic items present, that’s why there are so few of them compared to items with set DCs or that only boost spell attacks. Add to that the existence of other magic items that can preclude some magics working at all, and other game mechanics that allow monsters and NPCs to either gain advantage on such saves or otherwise simply be immune to them entirely.
I hear people talk about how game-breaking PC flight is and I have to laugh. If flight is truly that game breaking for you then be sure to end your campaigns before the party ever hits 7th level. Fly is only a 3rd-level spell after all. Can the ability to fly make certain challenges relatively inconsequential for a party to overcome? Sure, absolutely. Is that really a problem? Not in my opinion, no. For one thing, it’s kinda hard to do as you suggest and sit 600’ above the enemy and fire arrows at them if they’re in a dungeon with 10-20-foot high ceilings. An as for those challenges that flight makes easy to overcome (like cliffs, ravines, etc.), that just means that a DM has an opportunity to provide more difficult and interesting challenges for them to overcome instead of leaning on such mundane things like crutches.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
Perhaps I should have said, Flight before 5th level, but the point still stands.
Keep in mind that most mind control spells have sharp limits on what can be accomplished with them, particularly the subtle ones. Modify Memory very specifically says that if the inserted memory is out of keeping with the target's alignment/personality it will be discounted by the target, and Suggestion requires you make a "reasonable-sounding" course of action, which gives the DM latitude to nix anything particularly extreme, especially if you try and slap it on someone who is opposed to you. And that's setting aside the narrative/worldbuilding aspect of how a ruler in a high magic world would function; they and their subordinates would be aware that such things exist and would both take measures to prevent such a thing from occurring and quickly wonder if such magic is in play if someone started acting out of character.
You've missed the point.
Your point seemed to be that simply having access to 2nd level enchantment spells is all the party needs to bend NPC's to their whims, which is very objectively not the case, and both spells you specifically cited have very explicit caveats to limit that very thing. If I missed your point, perhaps you need to restate it.
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic.
5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting. THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
The game isn’t quite designed around the party not having any magic items, nor do all classes automatically include features that grant characters the ability to overcome resistance or immunity to nonmagical attacks. The game is balanced around to allow for PCs to have at least some magic items, even if only the bare minimum. That means they designed do expect PCs to have access to a modest number of healing potions (especially in Tier-1) and some other consumables (magic ammo, scrolls, and other potions) that only provide a temporary or limited use benefit, and for most martial characters to have at least some form of magic weapon available at around the turn of Tier-2. That is to say at least something like a weapon of warning or weapon, +1, or at least a moon touched sword. While it’s true that monks get magical attacks built directly into their base class, the rest don’t. They may have some features that allow them to add magical damage onto mundane attacks (like Divine Smite), or access to spells that can (like hail of thorns), but those all have limits to how many times they can be used. Fighters, barbarians and rogues have no such inherent features or spell access at all. Some subclasses for those classes have such features, but if the game were truly designed presuming absolute no access to magic weaponry, then those base classes would have such features and not rely on a handful of subclasses to carry the load.
For PCs to effectively use mind control as you describe, they have to get away with it. That means either guaranteed private access to the target, or the ability to cast such spells without others noticing. So there are limits to how effective such tactics can be regardless of save DC, or else they would be used by most parties as often as possible, and they aren’t. The designers are aware of the potential for abuse that DC boosting magic items present, that’s why there are so few of them compared to items with set DCs or that only boost spell attacks. Add to that the existence of other magic items that can preclude some magics working at all, and other game mechanics that allow monsters and NPCs to either gain advantage on such saves or otherwise simply be immune to them entirely.
I hear people talk about how game-breaking PC flight is and I have to laugh. If flight is truly that game breaking for you then be sure to end your campaigns before the party ever hits 7th level. Fly is only a 3rd-level spell after all. Can the ability to fly make certain challenges relatively inconsequential for a party to overcome? Sure, absolutely. Is that really a problem? Not in my opinion, no. For one thing, it’s kinda hard to do as you suggest and sit 600’ above the enemy and fire arrows at them if they’re in a dungeon with 10-20-foot high ceilings. An as for those challenges that flight makes easy to overcome (like cliffs, ravines, etc.), that just means that a DM has an opportunity to provide more difficult and interesting challenges for them to overcome instead of leaning on such mundane things like crutches.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
Perhaps I should have said, Flight before 5th level, but the point still stands.
Not even remotely. In what possible way could flight better 5th level “break the game” in your opinion? So they can more easily deal with really high up stuff, stuff across gaps to wide to jump. So what? Just come up with better, more interesting challenges for them, that’s all. And maybe they could get a slight advantage in combat when outdoors if (and that’s a big “if,” as you can see) the combat goes on long enough, which is very unlikely for the most part.
To massively outrange anything by flying to an altitude higher than 600 feet (which you’ve stated as the concern) would take 13 rounds to climb above 600 feet with a flying speed of 50 ft., or 21 rounds with a flying speed of 30 ft. That is assuming they use their Action to attack every round on the way up. They could of course Dash and cut their ascent time in half down to 7 rounds at 50 ft., or 11 rounds at 30 ft., but then they’ve not attacked at all for all those rounds. Considering that in 5e the average combat lasts between 2½ — 4½ rounds and then their over, that would mean combat would already be well over and done with several rounds before the “game breaking” flyer hauling @$$ at 100 ft. / round would even reach their designated altitude of 600+ feet for optimal game braking capability. For those slower flyers dashing all the way at a maxed out 60 ft. / round, two entire combats could be completed before the exceeded the proscribed 600+ ft. of altitude.
Considering those facts, it would be much, much more efficient to actually attack every round and only fly up for a maximum of 3 rounds before leveling off to kite. In that circumstance the 50 ft. speed flyer would be just at 150 altitude even which would put them out of range for most spells since the vast majority of them cap out at 120 range or less, most of them less. And the 30 ft. speed flyer would be at just a 90 ft. cruising altitude which puts them out of rage for any spell that caps out at 60 feet, which is (I suspect) about half the list. And even then, the overwhelming majority of combat situations would end before they ever got a 4th turn to actually take advantage of their altitude advantage.
I simply cannot see why a PC having a flying speed should ever possibly “break” or even seriously threaten an entire campaign.
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic.
5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting. THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
The game isn’t quite designed around the party not having any magic items, nor do all classes automatically include features that grant characters the ability to overcome resistance or immunity to nonmagical attacks. The game is balanced around to allow for PCs to have at least some magic items, even if only the bare minimum. That means they designed do expect PCs to have access to a modest number of healing potions (especially in Tier-1) and some other consumables (magic ammo, scrolls, and other potions) that only provide a temporary or limited use benefit, and for most martial characters to have at least some form of magic weapon available at around the turn of Tier-2. That is to say at least something like a weapon of warning or weapon, +1, or at least a moon touched sword. While it’s true that monks get magical attacks built directly into their base class, the rest don’t. They may have some features that allow them to add magical damage onto mundane attacks (like Divine Smite), or access to spells that can (like hail of thorns), but those all have limits to how many times they can be used. Fighters, barbarians and rogues have no such inherent features or spell access at all. Some subclasses for those classes have such features, but if the game were truly designed presuming absolute no access to magic weaponry, then those base classes would have such features and not rely on a handful of subclasses to carry the load.
For PCs to effectively use mind control as you describe, they have to get away with it. That means either guaranteed private access to the target, or the ability to cast such spells without others noticing. So there are limits to how effective such tactics can be regardless of save DC, or else they would be used by most parties as often as possible, and they aren’t. The designers are aware of the potential for abuse that DC boosting magic items present, that’s why there are so few of them compared to items with set DCs or that only boost spell attacks. Add to that the existence of other magic items that can preclude some magics working at all, and other game mechanics that allow monsters and NPCs to either gain advantage on such saves or otherwise simply be immune to them entirely.
I hear people talk about how game-breaking PC flight is and I have to laugh. If flight is truly that game breaking for you then be sure to end your campaigns before the party ever hits 7th level. Fly is only a 3rd-level spell after all. Can the ability to fly make certain challenges relatively inconsequential for a party to overcome? Sure, absolutely. Is that really a problem? Not in my opinion, no. For one thing, it’s kinda hard to do as you suggest and sit 600’ above the enemy and fire arrows at them if they’re in a dungeon with 10-20-foot high ceilings. An as for those challenges that flight makes easy to overcome (like cliffs, ravines, etc.), that just means that a DM has an opportunity to provide more difficult and interesting challenges for them to overcome instead of leaning on such mundane things like crutches.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
Perhaps I should have said, Flight before 5th level, but the point still stands.
Not even remotely. In what possible way could flight better 5th level “break the game” in your opinion? So they can more easily deal with really high up stuff, stuff across gaps to wide to jump. So what? Just come up with better, more interesting challenges for them, that’s all. And maybe they could get a slight advantage in combat when outdoors if (and that’s a big “if,” as you can see) the combat goes on long enough, which is very unlikely for the most part.
To massively outrange anything by flying to an altitude higher than 600 feet (which you’ve stated as the concern) would take 13 rounds to climb above 600 feet with a flying speed of 50 ft., or 21 rounds with a flying speed of 30 ft. That is assuming they use their Action to attack every round on the way up. They could of course Dash and cut their ascent time in half down to 7 rounds at 50 ft., or 11 rounds at 30 ft., but then they’ve not attacked at all for all those rounds. Considering that in 5e the average combat lasts between 2½ — 4½ rounds and then their over, that would mean combat would already be well over and done with several rounds before the “game breaking” flyer hauling @$$ at 100 ft. / round would even reach their designated altitude of 600+ feet for optimal game braking capability. For those slower flyers dashing all the way at a maxed out 60 ft. / round, two entire combats could be completed before the exceeded the proscribed 600+ ft. of altitude.
Considering those facts, it would be much, much more efficient to actually attack every round and only fly up for a maximum of 3 rounds before leveling off to kite. In that circumstance the 50 ft. speed flyer would be just at 150 altitude even which would put them out of range for most spells since the vast majority of them cap out at 120 range or less, most of them less. And the 30 ft. speed flyer would be at just a 90 ft. cruising altitude which puts them out of rage for any spell that caps out at 60 feet, which is (I suspect) about half the list. And even then, the overwhelming majority of combat situations would end before they ever got a 4th turn to actually take advantage of their altitude advantage.
I simply cannot see why a PC having a flying speed should ever possibly “break” or even seriously threaten an entire campaign.
Or start the fight already at 600 ft, did that possibility really escape you? How about shoot on their way up? And is 600' a must, or can you not understand that it was just an example?
Have you really never played with someone who's done that?
Not all fights are in dungeons or hallways, in fact most are not (unless you're limiting yourself to dungeoncrawls). There are a lot of DMs that don't allow flying races (or put limits on their flight capabilities) prior to 5th level when spellcasters can gain flight.
Really want to have fun? Try a Gloomstalker with sharpshooter and the ability to fly, fighting at night. Flying creatures won't even be able to see them, and certainly nothing on the ground.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on these forums fail to see anything that doesn't match their limited experience. It was a piece of advice from someone with a LOT of experience. If you don't like the advice, simply don't take it.
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic.
5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting. THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
The game isn’t quite designed around the party not having any magic items, nor do all classes automatically include features that grant characters the ability to overcome resistance or immunity to nonmagical attacks. The game is balanced around to allow for PCs to have at least some magic items, even if only the bare minimum. That means they designed do expect PCs to have access to a modest number of healing potions (especially in Tier-1) and some other consumables (magic ammo, scrolls, and other potions) that only provide a temporary or limited use benefit, and for most martial characters to have at least some form of magic weapon available at around the turn of Tier-2. That is to say at least something like a weapon of warning or weapon, +1, or at least a moon touched sword. While it’s true that monks get magical attacks built directly into their base class, the rest don’t. They may have some features that allow them to add magical damage onto mundane attacks (like Divine Smite), or access to spells that can (like hail of thorns), but those all have limits to how many times they can be used. Fighters, barbarians and rogues have no such inherent features or spell access at all. Some subclasses for those classes have such features, but if the game were truly designed presuming absolute no access to magic weaponry, then those base classes would have such features and not rely on a handful of subclasses to carry the load.
For PCs to effectively use mind control as you describe, they have to get away with it. That means either guaranteed private access to the target, or the ability to cast such spells without others noticing. So there are limits to how effective such tactics can be regardless of save DC, or else they would be used by most parties as often as possible, and they aren’t. The designers are aware of the potential for abuse that DC boosting magic items present, that’s why there are so few of them compared to items with set DCs or that only boost spell attacks. Add to that the existence of other magic items that can preclude some magics working at all, and other game mechanics that allow monsters and NPCs to either gain advantage on such saves or otherwise simply be immune to them entirely.
I hear people talk about how game-breaking PC flight is and I have to laugh. If flight is truly that game breaking for you then be sure to end your campaigns before the party ever hits 7th level. Fly is only a 3rd-level spell after all. Can the ability to fly make certain challenges relatively inconsequential for a party to overcome? Sure, absolutely. Is that really a problem? Not in my opinion, no. For one thing, it’s kinda hard to do as you suggest and sit 600’ above the enemy and fire arrows at them if they’re in a dungeon with 10-20-foot high ceilings. An as for those challenges that flight makes easy to overcome (like cliffs, ravines, etc.), that just means that a DM has an opportunity to provide more difficult and interesting challenges for them to overcome instead of leaning on such mundane things like crutches.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
Perhaps I should have said, Flight before 5th level, but the point still stands.
Not even remotely. In what possible way could flight better 5th level “break the game” in your opinion? So they can more easily deal with really high up stuff, stuff across gaps to wide to jump. So what? Just come up with better, more interesting challenges for them, that’s all. And maybe they could get a slight advantage in combat when outdoors if (and that’s a big “if,” as you can see) the combat goes on long enough, which is very unlikely for the most part.
To massively outrange anything by flying to an altitude higher than 600 feet (which you’ve stated as the concern) would take 13 rounds to climb above 600 feet with a flying speed of 50 ft., or 21 rounds with a flying speed of 30 ft. That is assuming they use their Action to attack every round on the way up. They could of course Dash and cut their ascent time in half down to 7 rounds at 50 ft., or 11 rounds at 30 ft., but then they’ve not attacked at all for all those rounds. Considering that in 5e the average combat lasts between 2½ — 4½ rounds and then their over, that would mean combat would already be well over and done with several rounds before the “game breaking” flyer hauling @$$ at 100 ft. / round would even reach their designated altitude of 600+ feet for optimal game braking capability. For those slower flyers dashing all the way at a maxed out 60 ft. / round, two entire combats could be completed before the exceeded the proscribed 600+ ft. of altitude.
Considering those facts, it would be much, much more efficient to actually attack every round and only fly up for a maximum of 3 rounds before leveling off to kite. In that circumstance the 50 ft. speed flyer would be just at 150 altitude even which would put them out of range for most spells since the vast majority of them cap out at 120 range or less, most of them less. And the 30 ft. speed flyer would be at just a 90 ft. cruising altitude which puts them out of rage for any spell that caps out at 60 feet, which is (I suspect) about half the list. And even then, the overwhelming majority of combat situations would end before they ever got a 4th turn to actually take advantage of their altitude advantage.
I simply cannot see why a PC having a flying speed should ever possibly “break” or even seriously threaten an entire campaign.
Or start the fight already at 600 ft, did that possibility really escape you? How about shoot on their way up? And is 600' a must, or can you not understand that it was just an example?
Have you really never played with someone who's done that?
Not all fights are in dungeons or hallways, in fact most are not (unless you're limiting yourself to dungeoncrawls). There are a lot of DMs that don't allow flying races (or put limits on their flight capabilities) prior to 5th level when spellcasters can gain flight.
Really want to have fun? Try a Gloomstalker with sharpshooter and the ability to fly, fighting at night. Flying creatures won't even be able to see them, and certainly nothing on the ground.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on these forums fail to see anything that doesn't match their limited experience. It was a piece of advice from someone with a LOT of experience. If you don't like the advice, simply don't take it.
What? Do they just fly around at 600 feet all the time? How the hell would they communicate with the rest of the party? Spam message or something?!? GTFO
And even if they fly around at a more reasonable 150 ft altitude, so what? Shoot them with stuff. It’s that simple. Really wanna mess up their day? Have a specialized barista launch a net at them. They’ll drop like a stone and take 15d6 damage. Or a flying adversary who can cast hold person, or my person favorite is a squadron of koboldvulture riders. 😂😂
Oh, they’re flying around at night? Darkvision. And if you say that the range on Darkvision is too limited and the enemy wouldn’t be able to see them? Then unless they’re playing a gloomstalker specifically then they can’t see either. And even if they are playing a gloomstalker as you describe, have a spellcaster use an AoE against them.
Perhaps an odd question. Still not much experience as a DM. Starting at low character levels the players don't get much access to magic items. But as players level up it becomes possible. What would be the guidelines for allowing access to magic items? I imagine it would depend upon item's classification, common, uncommon, rare, etc. I've read DMG a couple of times cover to cover, and I think it's in there. but now I have no idea how to find that again, and forum search isn't getting me anything. 🤷♂️
In the DMG, what you're looking for is in Chapter 7, under the Magic Item section. It's a chart that gives ideas of what level to give what rarity items.
Basically, it recommends common and uncommon in Teir 1, rare in T2, very rare t3, and legendary in t4.
More specifically, in early levels think mostly about consumables -- potions, scrolls, single use type things. It can also be nice to start handing out magic weapons to the martials around the time the characters start running into monsters that are resistant to nonmagical b/p/s damage. Personally, I like to give them a couple fights against the resistant monsters before they get the items, so they can more appreciate the power bump when they have weapons that start working better. Others like to give the weapons first.
Excellent! Thank you! So my memory isn't totally toast! 🤪I thought there was something in there but I was having a hell of a time with coming up with search terms that would generate what I needed.
In addition to the chart that Xalthu mentioned, which can be found here: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/creating-a-campaign#StartingatHigherLevel), there are more detailed suggestions earlier in the chapter which you can find here: (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/creating-a-campaign#TiersofPlay).
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Tiers of Play in chapter 1 however gives a much lower level of magic items when starting a campaign.
There is also often a large disparity between the power of items and their rarity. An uncommon flying broom or winged boots are more powerful than very rare horseshoes of the zephyr or a vicious weapon (rare) does less damage on average than a +1 weapon of the same type (uncommon).
"Tiers of Play" another good reference for the question at hand. Thanks! Oh and yes as part of figuring this out I too noticed some discrepancies between how rare an item might be and how powerful said item actually is in play.
Reality is it doesn't really matter, there are high magic and low magic campaigns, the trick is to keep the players roughly equal in power / magic item power and to balance the monsters to be a challenge for the party without overpowering them. Also be aware that things like flight can remove many of the obsticles faced by lower level parties and the DM needs to be aware of that and set different challenges (though this can sometimes players get access to this through character choice such as being a flying race)
As has been noted the biggest challenges are 1) keeping every player roughtly even in ability and 2) increasing the difficulty of the challenges to account for the newfound benefits of the magic. 5e is actually balanced for no magic. Each class either gains the ability to create or attack as having a magic weapon at about the level that they'd encounter creatures that require them. In other cases the character gets additional damage dice right around the level that they'd encounter creatures with resistances, and the encounter xp charts assume the players do not have magic items. If they do, you need to make adjustments to the result of those charts for determining level appropriate encounters.
Be especially wary of giving out any magic item that increases the character's spell DC, it can have disasterous effects on the game. Players playing casters usually do everything they can to max out their spell DC already, allowing it to go even higher can result in situations where level appropriate monsters (or other characters, npcs, etc) have no realistic chance of ever resisting.
THink of how much damage to the campaign would be done if one of the characters starts casting Modify Memory or suggestion at the drop of a hat, both on other characters and every ruling NPC they meet. Spells that cause damage can be mitigated by increasing the HP of the encounters to account for the higher saves, but spells that allow mind control can be game-breaking if the PCs spells can't be resisted.
Flight is another frequently overlooked game-breaker. Most monsters don't have ranged attacks (or don't have good ones), so unless you're planning on adding flying creatures to just about every fight, allowing magic items that grant flight (especially on ranged characters) can make them near-invincible especially when combined with sharpshooter that takes away penalties for firing at range. They could simply sit 600' in the air and pick off anything below.
Playing D&D since 1982
I have to disagree with portions of a few of your points.
Should DMs still consider what possible ramifications any magic items they provide access to might have on their campaigns? Absolutely. Is it as dire a situation as your post makes things out to be? I personally don’t thinks so. Yes, some magic items can certainly make life very ridicule to DMs depending on how they’re used and how inexperienced the DM is. But for the most part, as long as the DM doesn’t just make it rain for the party then there is usually some way for a DM to recover from the situation (without having to retcon anything or take stuff away from their players).
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Keep in mind that most mind control spells have sharp limits on what can be accomplished with them, particularly the subtle ones. Modify Memory very specifically says that if the inserted memory is out of keeping with the target's alignment/personality it will be discounted by the target, and Suggestion requires you make a "reasonable-sounding" course of action, which gives the DM latitude to nix anything particularly extreme, especially if you try and slap it on someone who is opposed to you. And that's setting aside the narrative/worldbuilding aspect of how a ruler in a high magic world would function; they and their subordinates would be aware that such things exist and would both take measures to prevent such a thing from occurring and quickly wonder if such magic is in play if someone started acting out of character.
You've missed the point.
Playing D&D since 1982
Perhaps I should have said, Flight before 5th level, but the point still stands.
Playing D&D since 1982
Your point seemed to be that simply having access to 2nd level enchantment spells is all the party needs to bend NPC's to their whims, which is very objectively not the case, and both spells you specifically cited have very explicit caveats to limit that very thing. If I missed your point, perhaps you need to restate it.
Not even remotely. In what possible way could flight better 5th level “break the game” in your opinion? So they can more easily deal with really high up stuff, stuff across gaps to wide to jump. So what? Just come up with better, more interesting challenges for them, that’s all. And maybe they could get a slight advantage in combat when outdoors if (and that’s a big “if,” as you can see) the combat goes on long enough, which is very unlikely for the most part.
To massively outrange anything by flying to an altitude higher than 600 feet (which you’ve stated as the concern) would take 13 rounds to climb above 600 feet with a flying speed of 50 ft., or 21 rounds with a flying speed of 30 ft. That is assuming they use their Action to attack every round on the way up. They could of course Dash and cut their ascent time in half down to 7 rounds at 50 ft., or 11 rounds at 30 ft., but then they’ve not attacked at all for all those rounds. Considering that in 5e the average combat lasts between 2½ — 4½ rounds and then their over, that would mean combat would already be well over and done with several rounds before the “game breaking” flyer hauling @$$ at 100 ft. / round would even reach their designated altitude of 600+ feet for optimal game braking capability. For those slower flyers dashing all the way at a maxed out 60 ft. / round, two entire combats could be completed before the exceeded the proscribed 600+ ft. of altitude.
Considering those facts, it would be much, much more efficient to actually attack every round and only fly up for a maximum of 3 rounds before leveling off to kite. In that circumstance the 50 ft. speed flyer would be just at 150 altitude even which would put them out of range for most spells since the vast majority of them cap out at 120 range or less, most of them less. And the 30 ft. speed flyer would be at just a 90 ft. cruising altitude which puts them out of rage for any spell that caps out at 60 feet, which is (I suspect) about half the list. And even then, the overwhelming majority of combat situations would end before they ever got a 4th turn to actually take advantage of their altitude advantage.
I simply cannot see why a PC having a flying speed should ever possibly “break” or even seriously threaten an entire campaign.
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Or start the fight already at 600 ft, did that possibility really escape you? How about shoot on their way up? And is 600' a must, or can you not understand that it was just an example?
Have you really never played with someone who's done that?
Not all fights are in dungeons or hallways, in fact most are not (unless you're limiting yourself to dungeoncrawls). There are a lot of DMs that don't allow flying races (or put limits on their flight capabilities) prior to 5th level when spellcasters can gain flight.
Really want to have fun? Try a Gloomstalker with sharpshooter and the ability to fly, fighting at night. Flying creatures won't even be able to see them, and certainly nothing on the ground.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on these forums fail to see anything that doesn't match their limited experience. It was a piece of advice from someone with a LOT of experience. If you don't like the advice, simply don't take it.
Playing D&D since 1982
What? Do they just fly around at 600 feet all the time? How the hell would they communicate with the rest of the party? Spam message or something?!? GTFO
And even if they fly around at a more reasonable 150 ft altitude, so what? Shoot them with stuff. It’s that simple. Really wanna mess up their day? Have a specialized barista launch a net at them. They’ll drop like a stone and take 15d6 damage. Or a flying adversary who can cast hold person, or my person favorite is a squadron of kobold vulture riders. 😂😂
Oh, they’re flying around at night? Darkvision. And if you say that the range on Darkvision is too limited and the enemy wouldn’t be able to see them? Then unless they’re playing a gloomstalker specifically then they can’t see either. And even if they are playing a gloomstalker as you describe, have a spellcaster use an AoE against them.
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