Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Not completely true. There are some tools, such as Carpenter Tools and Blacksmithing Tools, that don't really have any skill as a primary source of proficiency. They might have a skill in specific situations (e.g., Investigation if a character is inspecting a weapon), but for the most part they can only benefit from a Proficiency Bonus if the user is proficient in the tool.
That is not the case in the overall thread here (Sleight of Hand with Thieves Tools), but it is possible for the situation to occur.
Is there any specific example of a Carpenter or Smith Tool test in the rules anywhere? Honestly, both of these feel like things that give you abilities (to craft) rather than requiring checks.
The general listed utilize action for those tools... can be done (and better!) without those tools. (And not even necessarily DC20). Sealing a door is just a utilize action with a spike and a hammer, no test required. Prying open a container is a task for a crowbar, not a specialized set of artisans tools. (Disassembling the container instead is probably a sleight of hand check at best). Opening a sealed or stuck door is what a portable ram is for.
None of those things are what carpenter's or smith's tools should be used for.
After reading all these entries I'm more confused than before. Are we settled on "tool proficiency" and "relevant skill proficiency/expertise" combine for proficiency/expertise plus advantage? That's how I read it. Basically your highest level of proficiency and advantage for investing in both tool and skill?
That is what the rules actually say, yes.
pronouns: he/she/they
The reason I chimed in at all is that 2014 and 2024 rules are different.
2014 there is no ability applied to a tool and an example given is specifically for woodcarver's tools:
Tool use is not tied to a single ability, since proficiency with a tool represents broader knowledge of its use. For example, the DM might ask you to make a Dexterity check to carve a fine detail with your woodcarver’s tools, or a Strength check to make something out of particularly hard wood.
And when you look at wodcarvers tools in 2014, they have a simple description:
These special tools include the items needed to pursue a craft or trade. Proficiency with a set of artisan's tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make using the tools in your craft. Each type of artisan's tools requires a separate proficiency.
2024 on the otherhand for tools in general specifically calls out they can be utilized fro some tasks as follows:
A tool helps you make specialized ability checks, craft certain items, or both. A tool’s description includes the tool’s cost and weight, as well as the following entries:
Ability. This entry lists the ability to use when making an ability check with the tool.
Utilize. This entry lists things you can do with the tool when you take the Utilize action. You can do one of those things each time you take the action. This entry also provides the DC for the action.
And now when I look at woodcarver's tools there is no longer the option to use it for str checks, only dex.
Woodcarver’s Tools (1 GP)
Ability: Dexterity Weight: 5 lb.
Utilize: Carve a pattern in wood (DC 10)
Craft: Club, Greatclub, Quarterstaff, Ranged weapons (except Pistol, Musket, and Sling), Arcane Focus, Arrows, Bolts, Druidic Focus, Ink Pen, Needles
So I agree, you can use a crowbar (gives advantage) or hammer and spikes (I can't find a check for this so automatic?)
But if you lack those and have Carpenter's Tools, you can do the following:
Carpenter’s Tools (8 GP)
Ability: Strength Weight: 6 lb.
Utilize: Seal or pry open a door or container (DC 20)
Craft: Club, Greatclub, Quarterstaff, Barrel, Chest, Ladder, Pole, Portable Ram, Torch
I see this as an alternative and so options would be....
Open a crate that has been nailed shut. DC 20
- crowbar STR check with advantage
- carpenters tools STR check (and if you are proficient - with advantage)
- bare hands STR check
STR check is simple if we use ability and skill synonymously - there is on one STR check (Athletics), so I am good with that.
And for other tools, when it calls out an ability score as a DM I can advise what the skill used is, but in some cases it looks like we are told (ex lock tells you it is thieves tools + sleight of hand)
IMO, you could have used carpenter's tools in the past anyway, however I agree I would just pick up the items (hammer, spikes and crowbar).
I believe this is because they tied tools into the character creation and gave everyone at least a tool prificiency with their origin feat
As for better with the tools, when some items specifically call out a tool needed:
Lock (10 GP)
A Lock comes with a key. Without the key, a creature can use Thieves’ Tools to pick this Lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check.
I was trying to be very specific about this.
Yes, in some cases I can see someone working hard to pull the lid off a nailed coffin with their bare hands and eventually succeeding, and in other cases like picking a lock... you need the Tools.
That is why I also mentioned in this case the item specified it. I was trying to get to a good place with lock picking and also references the use of other tools to help my case... and it looks like I brought us down a hole.
Does anyone know of a tool I can use to get out of it?
:)
Xanathar’s Guide to Everything (Tool Descriptions, p. 78) had some skills suggested for different tools.
Thanks.
This does help explain explain what skill to use in what situation... and it appears to be based on 2014 rules.
Is it general practice to use this for 2024 rules?
It's true XGtE was released for 5e. We have the next guideline from WotC Updates in the Player’s Handbook (2024):
So this could mean that the 5.5e tool and equipment rules replace the ones from XGtE. Indeed, granting Advantage when a character is proficient with the tool and the skill comes from XGtE. But even so, IMO the tips and advice about which skill to use with each tool are still useful.
Anyway, if you're a DM, it's up to you which books or information you use for your rulings. "Tool Descriptions" is under the "Dungeon Master's Tools" chapter, after all.
Good conversation, and I agree. I am always striving to be better, which includes following the spirit of the rules where possible.
I appreciate all of the opinions presented here. Good gaming to everyone!
In the case of Carpenter and Smith tools I will go even further. Both of those use cases (opening a sealed door or container) would be a Strength(Athletics) test, not just Strength. Proficiency in both the tool and Athletics should give you the Strength(Athletics) with the possibility of Expertise or some other bonus, at Advantage.
However, those are poor examples. There are several of the other tools that have Utilize actions that really don't seem like they can be accomplished through any other Skill. Cobbler's Tools are an example. Calligrapher's Supplies are another.
Are they Earthshaking abilities? No, of course not. However, they do exist.
And, for the record, it seems that these occurrences are few and far between. All I am doing is picking nits with the statement that there will always be a skill involved.
Calligrapher's Supplies are either Sleight of Hand (for quality of writing) or Arcana (learning a spell and scribing it into your spellbook).
I don't think the truly intended uses of Carpenter or Smith tools, nor Cobbler's tools, require any roll at all. They just allow you to craft some things. So it's not even a check.
Calligrapher’s tools have no explicit interaction with spell scribing- copying from a found book has no check, and it’s a pretty big stretch to attempt to tie the Arcana check for learning from a scroll to the tools. I won’t say a DM is running the game wrong/badly for allowing it, but there’s no leg for a player to stand on trying to push for it
Indeed some adventures have examples where no particular skill is mentioned:
- Tomb of Annihilation, p. 62: proficiency with smith's tools & a DC 10 Intelligence check
- Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, p. 142: proficiency with tinker's tools & a DC 15 Intelligence check
- Ghosts of Saltmarsh, p. 224: a DC 15 Dexterity check & mason's tools
- Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, p. 83: a DC 12 Strength check or DC 12 Dexterity check + proficiency in a relevant set of artisan's tools (such as mason's tools)
- Borderlands Quest: Goblin Trouble: a DC 10 check (Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence are good abilities to use) + "Characters that are proficient with Carpenter’s Tools, Smith’s Tools, or Tinker’s Tools would be able to use those effectively."
I mean, they explicitly have an interaction the other way (proficiency in Calligraphy Tools allows you to scribe scrolls, although there's no check).
It is in copying the spell into the spellbook from a scroll that an arcana check is made, ie, that includes the actual writing, which presumably at least can use Calligrapher's Supplies, since you are writing. And if you are using the tool, it's proficiency bonus applies to any skill check you make doing so. "If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool." That's my read from the DM's side.
That assumes the skill check is related to the act of writing, as opposed to attempting to discern the mechanics of the spell. As I said, not a call I'd take issue with on the DM's part, but it's really stretching the spirit and letter involved and probably not something I'd go for.