This thread really has gotten away from the original question.
I didn't mean to start yet another discussion on whether Weapon Juggling is possible (although I think it clearly is).
Regardless of *how* you manage to swap weapons, whether it is by stowing on the first attack and drawing on the second, whether it is dropping one to the floor, whether it is because you have a magic item that does it, ...
The question was whether Loading meant that you can make only 1 attack with any loading weapon or 1 attack with each loading weapon.
I interpret is a one attack with any loading weapon, because the effort and time required to load a loading weapon (like a crossbow) is greater than other ammunition weapons. And switching weapons doesn't make it any easier to do so.
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I interpret is a one attack with any loading weapon, because the effort and time required to load a loading weapon (like a crossbow) is greater than other ammunition weapons. And switching weapons doesn't make it any easier to do so.
I agree that the Loading Property clearly is meant to refer to the time required to load a loading weapon - e.g. crank a crossbow or stuff black powder into a firearm, and that switing weapons doesn't make it easier to do so. BUT, in my opinion you could use make multiple attacks with a loading weapon on one turn using weapon swapping like so:
Attack 1 : currently held & loaded firearm, stow it as part of the attack Attack 2 : Draw an already loaded firearm and fire it, Reload it as part of the attack action. (optional) BA: Fire again & Reload it as part of the attack
However, note that every round one you are going from 2 loaded firearms to 1 loaded firearm so eventually you will run out of already loaded firearms to fire. That said, it is entirely within the authority of the DM to say that there are risks to walking around with a half dozen loaded firearms on your person, or that it's not possible to carry around a whole bunch of already loaded crossbows.
I interpret is a one attack with any loading weapon, because the effort and time required to load a loading weapon (like a crossbow) is greater than other ammunition weapons. And switching weapons doesn't make it any easier to do so.
I agree that the Loading Property clearly is meant to refer to the time required to load a loading weapon - e.g. crank a crossbow or stuff black powder into a firearm, and that switing weapons doesn't make it easier to do so. BUT, in my opinion you could use make multiple attacks with a loading weapon on one turn using weapon swapping like so:
Attack 1 : currently held & loaded firearm, stow it as part of the attack Attack 2 : Draw an already loaded firearm and fire it, Reload it as part of the attack action. (optional) BA: Fire again & Reload it as part of the attack
However, note that every round one you are going from 2 loaded firearms to 1 loaded firearm so eventually you will run out of already loaded firearms to fire. That said, it is entirely within the authority of the DM to say that there are risks to walking around with a half dozen loaded firearms on your person, or that it's not possible to carry around a whole bunch of already loaded crossbows.
If we are going strictly by the rules, there are no "preloaded weapons". Loading a weapon is part of the attack. That's what the ammunition property says.
Weapon juggling is not a thing. PH pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action" and pg 361: "You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this [Attack] action" (highlighting mine).
However, the example scenario on pg 30 has a character "... drop my sword and pull out my warhammer" to attack, so dropping a weapon to pull another would be OK.
Therefore, you could drop your crossbow after shooting it to draw and attack with another weapon, but as pointed out, stowing a crossbow and draw another weapon would not work and would "look" ridiculous.
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers, although I think I would allow it to a very limited degree. Since RAW you only get one object interaction on your turn, and if you use it to equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of an Attack [Action], you've used it up. And to further restrict this idea of weapon swapping, the rules go so far as to say specifically that dropping a weapon is considered unequipping.
"Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it."
(I would personally allow a single free object interaction in addition to a singular equip/unequip once per Attack [Action], but that's just me.)
You would need a feat, such as Crossbow Expert, to allow you to ignore the Loading property of a weapon such as a Crossbow, which would then let you dual wield hand crossbows, or make multiple attacks with your attack action using a crossbow, without the need for weapon juggling shenanigans, or even a free hand.
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers,
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
You would need a feat, such as Crossbow Expert, to allow you to ignore the Loading property of a weapon such as a Crossbow, which would then let you dual wield hand crossbows, or make multiple attacks with your attack action using a crossbow, without the need for weapon juggling shenanigans, or even a free hand.
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property, not the Ammunition property. The Ammunition property requires you to have a free hand.
You would need a feat, such as Crossbow Expert, to allow you to ignore the Loading property of a weapon such as a Crossbow, which would then let you dual wield hand crossbows, or make multiple attacks with your attack action using a crossbow, without the need for weapon juggling shenanigans, or even a free hand.
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property, not the Ammunition property. The Ammunition property requires you to have a free hand.
Crossbow Expert does not ignore the Ammunition property but it does over-rule it as it says you can load the weapon even if you lack a free hand.
Personally I'd also house rule out weapon juggling, I dislike it and it's hard to know the RAI but the RAW is a mess which is what is causing all this headache.
You would need a feat, such as Crossbow Expert, to allow you to ignore the Loading property of a weapon such as a Crossbow, which would then let you dual wield hand crossbows, or make multiple attacks with your attack action using a crossbow, without the need for weapon juggling shenanigans, or even a free hand.
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property, not the Ammunition property. The Ammunition property requires you to have a free hand.
Crossbow Expert does not ignore the Ammunition property but it does over-rule it as it says you can load the weapon even if you lack a free hand.
Personally I'd also house rule out weapon juggling, I dislike it and it's hard to know the RAI but the RAW is a mess which is what is causing all this headache.
If I'm not mistaken, this is one of the differences between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats.
I mean, with the 2014 feat, you needed a free hand to load the crossbow.
If I'm not mistaken, this is one of the differences between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats.
I mean, with the 2014 feat, you needed a free hand to load the crossbow.
I suspect the difference mostly relates to changes in the bonus action, as in 2014, you could perform the BA attack with the same hand crossbow but in 2024, it is instead left to the light property instead now, so it enables being able to benefit from using 2 hand crossbows in the same way you could benefit from just 1 in 2014 to get a bonus action attack.
If I'm not mistaken, this is one of the differences between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats.
I mean, with the 2014 feat, you needed a free hand to load the crossbow.
I suspect the difference mostly relates to changes in the bonus action, as in 2014, you could perform the BA attack with the same hand crossbow but in 2024, it is instead left to the light property instead now, so it enables being able to benefit from using 2 hand crossbows in the same way you could benefit from just 1 in 2014 to get a bonus action attack.
I agree with you.
There was a question about this specific feat not too long ago: Crossbow Expert
You could attack with 3 different 2-handed weapons if you have enough attacks.
Attack, stow
Draw, attack
Stow with object interaction.
Draw, attack.
If you have more attacks after that you can throw additional weapons.
Is object interaction still a thing? And if so, does it still apply to draw/stow
Interacting with an object is no longer a free action, it requires an action to do.
That's incorrect. Object interaction is still very much a thing in the 2024 rules. In fact, the rule now appears in two different places:
Interacting with Objects
Interacting with objects is often simple to resolve . . .
What Is an Object?
For the purpose of the rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone.
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter.
and also . . .
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action.
This rule can be used at any time during your move or action.
In addition to this, there are now other rules which allow specific interactions with weapons at specific times:
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action . . .
includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up . . .
includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
and also:
Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack.
These usages of free item interactions are additive because otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to write the two rules which have a narrower scope. You would just always use the general item interaction which can apply to any object at any time during your move or action.
All of this is important to the discussion of the Loading property because, as written, the Loading property says this:
Loading
You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
Regardless of what may or may not be intended, as written this is a per weapon restriction. So, if you can fire multiple Loading weapons using the various item interaction rules given above, then you can make multiple attacks -- one attack per weapon.
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers,
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
What Action are you taking? Attack [Action] <--- this action
What can you do? equip or unequip one weapon
When can you do it? when you make an attack as part of this action [either before or after the attack]
How many times can you do this? Once, because you are only allowed one object interaction in a round.
PHB pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action"
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers,
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
What Action are you taking? Attack [Action] <--- this action
What can you do? equip or unequip one weapon
When can you do it? when you make an attack as part of this action [either before or after the attack]
How many times can you do this? Once, because you are only allowed one object interaction in a round.
PHB pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action"
I could accept that RAW is questionable regarding whether you can swap weapons more than once during the Attack action. However, it's true that you always have the following extra option on top of that during your turn:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.
So, even if you rule that only one weapon interaction is allowed when you take the Attack action, you can always interact one more time because of that rule. For example, with a weapon.
as part of your move or action you can pick a weapon (or other item) up off the ground.
This weapon or other item can be on the ground, but it doesn't have to be. It can also be an object that you are wearing or carrying. The rule in question exists as part of a series of rules that discusses objects in general, not just objects in the environment:
Interacting with Objects
Interacting with objects is often simple to resolve . . . Sometimes, however, rules govern what you can do with an object
. . .
What Is an Object?
For the purpose of the rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone.
. . .
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action.
. . .
Carrying Objects
You can usually carry your gear and treasure without worrying about the weight of those objects.
The rule is then repeated in the Combat section with this wording:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action.
Given this context, the correct interpretation is this:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one objectorfeature of the environment for free, during either your move or action.
Meaning: You can interact with one object, or you can interact with one feature of the environment.
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers,
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
What Action are you taking? Attack [Action] <--- this action
What can you do? equip or unequip one weapon
When can you do it? when you make an attack as part of this action [either before or after the attack]
How many times can you do this? Once, because you are only allowed one object interaction in a round.
PHB pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action"
I could accept that RAW is questionable regarding whether you can swap weapons more than once during the Attack action. However, it's true that you always have the following extra option on top of that during your turn:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.
So, even if you rule that only one weapon interaction is allowed when you take the Attack action, you can always interact one more time because of that rule. For example, with a weapon.
I would be fine with this, as it would give you two total weapon interactions possible during your Attack [Action]. One from the free object interaction and one from the Attack [Action].
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers,
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
What Action are you taking? Attack [Action] <--- this action
What can you do? equip or unequip one weapon
When can you do it? when you make an attack as part of this action [either before or after the attack]
How many times can you do this? Once, because you are only allowed one object interaction in a round.
PHB pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action"
I could accept that RAW is questionable regarding whether you can swap weapons more than once during the Attack action. However, it's true that you always have the following extra option on top of that during your turn:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.
So, even if you rule that only one weapon interaction is allowed when you take the Attack action, you can always interact one more time because of that rule. For example, with a weapon.
I would be fine with this, as it would give you two total weapon interactions possible during your Attack [Action]. One from the free object interaction and one from the Attack [Action].
We need a clarification soon, or we'll be counter-countering the arguments ad eternum :D
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This thread really has gotten away from the original question.
I didn't mean to start yet another discussion on whether Weapon Juggling is possible (although I think it clearly is).
Regardless of *how* you manage to swap weapons, whether it is by stowing on the first attack and drawing on the second, whether it is dropping one to the floor, whether it is because you have a magic item that does it, ...
The question was whether Loading meant that you can make only 1 attack with any loading weapon or 1 attack with each loading weapon.
Back on topic.
I interpret is a one attack with any loading weapon, because the effort and time required to load a loading weapon (like a crossbow) is greater than other ammunition weapons. And switching weapons doesn't make it any easier to do so.
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I agree that the Loading Property clearly is meant to refer to the time required to load a loading weapon - e.g. crank a crossbow or stuff black powder into a firearm, and that switing weapons doesn't make it easier to do so. BUT, in my opinion you could use make multiple attacks with a loading weapon on one turn using weapon swapping like so:
Attack 1 : currently held & loaded firearm, stow it as part of the attack
Attack 2 : Draw an already loaded firearm and fire it, Reload it as part of the attack action.
(optional) BA: Fire again & Reload it as part of the attack
However, note that every round one you are going from 2 loaded firearms to 1 loaded firearm so eventually you will run out of already loaded firearms to fire. That said, it is entirely within the authority of the DM to say that there are risks to walking around with a half dozen loaded firearms on your person, or that it's not possible to carry around a whole bunch of already loaded crossbows.
If we are going strictly by the rules, there are no "preloaded weapons". Loading a weapon is part of the attack. That's what the ammunition property says.
The 2 attacks technically still use 1 Attack Action. I know this is heavily debated, but to an English major it's pretty clear:
PH pg 92 [Fighter] "Level 5: Extra Attack: You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
"The" is singular. One Attack action, choose either draw or stow. Or can drop, as discussed above.
Interacting with an object is no longer a free action, it requires an action to do.
I agree completely - Weapon juggling is wishful thinking by some overly optimistic optimizers, although I think I would allow it to a very limited degree. Since RAW you only get one object interaction on your turn, and if you use it to equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of an Attack [Action], you've used it up. And to further restrict this idea of weapon swapping, the rules go so far as to say specifically that dropping a weapon is considered unequipping.
"Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it."
(I would personally allow a single free object interaction in addition to a singular equip/unequip once per Attack [Action], but that's just me.)
You would need a feat, such as Crossbow Expert, to allow you to ignore the Loading property of a weapon such as a Crossbow, which would then let you dual wield hand crossbows, or make multiple attacks with your attack action using a crossbow, without the need for weapon juggling shenanigans, or even a free hand.
I disagree. It's certainly not wishful thinking on my side because I will most definitely houserule that it's not possible. Still, it's clear from the description of the attack action that it's possible by RAW, because it says you can do so when you make an attack with the attack action, not once per action or once per turn. Any other feature that is described as when you make an attack works on every attack unless specified otherwise. Nowhere does it say that the drawing and sheathing of weapons described in the attack action count as part of the free object interaction described in the Exploration chapter.
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property, not the Ammunition property. The Ammunition property requires you to have a free hand.
Crossbow Expert does not ignore the Ammunition property but it does over-rule it as it says you can load the weapon even if you lack a free hand.
Personally I'd also house rule out weapon juggling, I dislike it and it's hard to know the RAI but the RAW is a mess which is what is causing all this headache.
If I'm not mistaken, this is one of the differences between the 2014 and 2024 Crossbow Expert feats.
I mean, with the 2014 feat, you needed a free hand to load the crossbow.
Ah, sorry, that's one change I missed in 2024!
I suspect the difference mostly relates to changes in the bonus action, as in 2014, you could perform the BA attack with the same hand crossbow but in 2024, it is instead left to the light property instead now, so it enables being able to benefit from using 2 hand crossbows in the same way you could benefit from just 1 in 2014 to get a bonus action attack.
I agree with you.
There was a question about this specific feat not too long ago: Crossbow Expert
That's incorrect. Object interaction is still very much a thing in the 2024 rules. In fact, the rule now appears in two different places:
and also . . .
This rule can be used at any time during your move or action.
In addition to this, there are now other rules which allow specific interactions with weapons at specific times:
and also:
These usages of free item interactions are additive because otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to write the two rules which have a narrower scope. You would just always use the general item interaction which can apply to any object at any time during your move or action.
All of this is important to the discussion of the Loading property because, as written, the Loading property says this:
Regardless of what may or may not be intended, as written this is a per weapon restriction. So, if you can fire multiple Loading weapons using the various item interaction rules given above, then you can make multiple attacks -- one attack per weapon.
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
What Action are you taking?
Attack [Action] <--- this action
What can you do?
equip or unequip one weapon
When can you do it?
when you make an attack as part of this action [either before or after the attack]
How many times can you do this?
Once, because you are only allowed one object interaction in a round.
PHB pg 24: "If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action"
I could accept that RAW is questionable regarding whether you can swap weapons more than once during the Attack action. However, it's true that you always have the following extra option on top of that during your turn:
So, even if you rule that only one weapon interaction is allowed when you take the Attack action, you can always interact one more time because of that rule. For example, with a weapon.
Assuming you have weapon drawn and you have two attacks
Attack one hit with sword and sheath weapon
Attack two Draw axe and attack.
end of turn you have axe in hand and a sheathed sword.
as part of your move or action you can pick a weapon (or other item) up off the ground.
This weapon or other item can be on the ground, but it doesn't have to be. It can also be an object that you are wearing or carrying. The rule in question exists as part of a series of rules that discusses objects in general, not just objects in the environment:
The rule is then repeated in the Combat section with this wording:
Given this context, the correct interpretation is this:
Meaning: You can interact with one object, or you can interact with one feature of the environment.
I would be fine with this, as it would give you two total weapon interactions possible during your Attack [Action]. One from the free object interaction and one from the Attack [Action].
We need a clarification soon, or we'll be counter-countering the arguments ad eternum :D