I need confirmation on how this Feat works now with the 2024 PHB.
The old Crossbow Expert used to allow you to use a Bonus Action attack with a hand crossbow after using the attack action to attack with a 1-handed weapon, like a hand crossbow. Essentially you could use just 1 hand crossbow and get 2 attacks, one with your action and one with your bonus action. That's how it always worked.
But now, in an effort to give players the ability to use 2 hand crossbows (and still do the same amount of damage) it seems like the Feat has changed. Now apparently you need to use a different hand crossbow for the bonus action attack, forcing you to occupy both of your hands.
The problem here is that with both of your hands occupied you can no longer use spells with a material component RAW. So builds that used crossbow expert alongside spell casting now get to use 2 crossbows and cosplay a Demon Hunter from Diablo but they loose the ability to cats a lot of their spells. This just feels like a straight nerf to something the player could always do. Am I reading this Feat wrong? How does it actually work now?
It's a little silly but based on the current wording of the Light property you can actually use two different weapons with the same hand by stowing the first one and drawing the second one. So, if you have two hand crossbows you can keep switching back and forth between them with one hand. Because that's somehow faster . . .
In the 2024 rules you are allowed to equip or unequip one weapon as part of an attack that you make with the attack action, and you can do this before or after the attack:
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
So basically, switching weapons during combat is a thing now. On top of the above mechanic, you also still have the one free object interaction just in case.
Now as for your original question, I expect that something about this will be changed eventually since it doesn't really make sense that it would be faster and easier to attack with two different weapons while using only one hand rather than just using the same weapon twice, but as written that's currently how the Light property works and that's how you would have to do what you're trying to do with the new Crossbow Expert feat.
The way I understood the rule is that it's the same as it always was. Equipping a weapon and making an attack with it doesn't cost 2 actions, but that counts as your free object interaction. So you can't stow a weapon to cast a spell as your object interaction and then equip it to attack because you've already used your object interaction. Do we have confirmation that the "You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action" part of the rule does NOT use up that free object interaction?
Man this wouldn't be a problem at all if they didn't change the Feat or if spells that have material components made irrelevant by the component pouch where changed to just not have that component.
I think that the Feat was changed because you can now already do what the Feat used to say you could do -- such as attacking with a shortsword and then also with a Hand Crossbow as a Bonus Action. The old two-weapon fighting didn't allow this because they had to be melee attacks.
Because of this, they tried to change the Feat to say that "when" you do this, you get some bonuses. But in the process the thing that you're trying to do became a bit more clunky.
I'm confident that the rule about equipping and unequipping a weapon that was quoted above does NOT use your object interaction -- it's a separate rule that is tied to making an attack with an attack action. It's considered to be part of the attack. The other rule is this:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action.
If you are not making an attack with the Attack action, then you would have to use your object interaction to draw or stow a weapon.
So, in your example, you would have to use your object interaction to stow the weapon before casting the spell, but then you could draw that weapon and attack with it as part of your attack action -- assuming that you have enough actions (via Action Surge or something) to be able to cast a spell and also attack with a weapon. The 2024 rules have been intentionally changed to make this sort of thing easier to accomplish.
yes, it's a change I strongly dislike. The only way I only had to have one hand crossbow. Now I have to have two even if visually, I think the whole thing looks silly. Just because the rule says I can ignore loading, my imagination can't just disable that setting.
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The issue is what does "as part of your action" really mean?
If I'm a level 6 Bladesinger and use a cantrip with a somatic component as my first attack and then use my main hand crossbow as my second attack (via extra attack), could I then draw my offhand hand crossbow as part of the BONUS action I use to make the third attack even though I stowed it before casting the cantrip earlier in the turn.
The sequence would look like:
Stow offhand --> Cast cantrip --> Crossbow attack --> Draw off hand + Bonus action attack (Repeat next turn)
I see. I believe that technically the attack that you are taking with the Bonus Action in this case is not actually part of an Attack Action. But you can stow or equip a weapon as part of each of your first two attacks in this sequence (assuming that your cantrip involves making an attack roll). Even if a DM interprets the rule as being only one stow or equip for the entire Attack action, you would still also have your object interaction to do your other one, so there are several ways for you to be able to execute the above sequence that you've described.
The issue is what does "as part of your action" really mean?
If I'm a level 6 Bladesinger and use a cantrip with a somatic component as my first attack and then use my main hand crossbow as my second attack (via extra attack), could I then draw my offhand hand crossbow as part of the BONUS action I use to make the third attack even though I stowed it before casting the cantrip earlier in the turn.
The sequence would look like:
Stow offhand --> Cast cantrip --> Crossbow attack --> Draw off hand + Bonus action attack (Repeat next turn)
As far as I understand the "Equipping and Unequipping Weapons" rule, you cannot swap weapons as part of a bonus action attack because it's not part of the Attack action.
---
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
Yes, that's how I'm reading the Light property also -- that the Bonus action attack provided by the Light property rule is not actually an attack that's part of an Attack action -- instead, it's a defined Bonus Action that includes an attack.
The fact that there can be this sort of distinction is confirmed by this other rule:
Making an Attack
When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack.
However, the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule provides a lot of flexibility since this can be done either before or after an attack and you don't even have to use that weapon for that attack.
The way that I read it, you get this free object interaction once per attack that's associated with any Attack action, not just once per Attack action. Although that's slightly ambiguous.
But regardless, for the proposed Bladesinger sequence (Stow offhand --> Cast cantrip --> Crossbow attack --> Draw off hand + Bonus action attack (Repeat next turn)) there are multiple ways to get this done through some combination of usages of the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule and the Interacting with Things rule.
Alright let’s try it. I have 2 hand crossbows. Crossbow A and Crossbow B.
I start my turn holding Crossbow A in my right hand. • I cast Eldritch Blast with my left hand. • Then I Draw Crossbow B with my left hand and fire it as my extra attack. • Then I fire Crossbow A as my bonus action attack. • Finally I stow Crossbow B using my free object interaction so I can repeat the entire sequence next turn.
Please let me use your example and add my notes/opinions to see if we understand the chain of events the same way:
Bladesinger level 6. Starting my turn holding Crossbow A in my right hand. I take the Attack Action.
First attack. I cast Eldritch Blast with my left hand. After this first attack, I could use the "Equipping and Unequipping Weapons" rule to equip Crossbow B.
Still in the same Attack Action. Extra attack with Crossbow B with my left hand. After this attack, I could unequip Crossbow B using the same rule as before.
Because the Light property states "when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn", I fire Crossbow A as my Bonus Action attack.
(optionally) I could use my free object interaction to equip or unequip a weapon.
I’m unequipping crossbow B at the end of the sequence using the free object interaction. Not the “you can equip/unequip a weapon before/after attack with it” rule because I assume you can’t do both the equipping and unequip for free in the same turn.
I don’t want the DM saying “oh hold on you can’t unequip crossbow B now for free because you equipped it for free earlier”.
If I can freely equip it to attack and then unequip it without any cost then I will but I’m not sure that THAT specifically is allowed.
The way that I read it, you get this free object interaction once per attack that's associated with any Attack action, not just once per Attack action. Although that's slightly ambiguous.
I'm pretty skeptical about that considering the new Dual Wielder feat tells you you can draw or stow two weapons at a time and the new Thrown property lets you draw the weapon as part of the ranged attack.
I’m unequipping crossbow B at the end of the sequence using the free object interaction. Not the “you can equip/unequip a weapon before/after attack with it” rule because I assume you can’t do both the equipping and unequip for free in the same turn.
I don’t want the DM saying “oh hold on you can’t unequip crossbow B now for free because you equipped it for free earlier”.
If I can freely equip it to attack and then unequip it without any cost then I will but I’m not sure that THAT specifically is allowed.
Using the Extra Attack feat, the rules could be interpreted as allowing you to equip or unequip a total of two weapons, or just to interact with one weapon once.
The sentence "you can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action" isn’t entirely clear to me, but @InquisitiveCoder’s reply also makes a valid point.
I mean, personally, I'd not allow it. It reeks of opportunity action exploit, and I'd come down hard on it with no chance of negotiation.
That said, what you suggest I /think/ works as written on round 1, up until you stow crossbow B. I personally read the rule that you get one free equip or unequip per round, and that's it, but it's not 100% clear to me.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
I bolded what I feel are the pertinent words, or and either. They both imply that this is a one time thing.
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That’s what I mean. If the whole “you can draw the weapon before making an attack with it” is a one time thing then I can’t also stow the weapon with the same rule.
BUT there’s still the “interact with one object without using an action” rule. So wouldn’t that allow me to stow the crossbow after I use it to attack? That’s why I put it at the very end of the sequence. It’s separate.
Even if we just say, “No you only interact with 1 object each turn even counting the draw and stow connected with attacking” there might be a way to still have this work.
Turn 1: Start with 1 weapon and a free hand. Cast spells with free hand. Then draw your second weapon and fire off your available attacks. (1 object interaction)
Turn 2: Start with 2 weapons, no free hand. Fire off your available attacks, then stow one of your weapons. Then cast spells with your now free hand. (1 object interaction)
Honestly I really believe that the game designers have made a conscious decision to make it a LOT easier to just switch weapons during combat. It's more fun. Tons of groups were ignoring these restrictions anyway. Let the players get to the business of using their cool features instead of wasting an entire turn fiddling with things like this. It's a deliberate design change.
The most recent group that I watched playing online was just saying things like "oh, i'm at range now? I guess I attack with my longbow. Oh, now I'm in melee, I guess I attack with my shortsword". And the DM is constantly ok with this because it's just more fun and it prevents the action from bogging down.
I'm actually not sure what the rule intends, but I do know what it says:
You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.
This can definitely be interpreted to mean that you can do this every time you make an attack as part of any Attack action. Not per turn. Not per action. Per attack -- as long as that attack is part of an Attack action.
And it's very flexible. You don't even have to use that weapon. Your attack could be a grapple. Or a bladesinger attack spell.
They really want you to be able to draw your weapons if you are walking around without any weapons drawn. And they really want you to be able to switch weapons during combat.
The most recent group that I watched playing online was just saying things like "oh, i'm at range now? I guess I attack with my longbow. Oh, now I'm in melee, I guess I attack with my shortsword". And the DM is constantly ok with this because it's just more fun and it prevents the action from bogging down.
...
They really want you to be able to draw your weapons if you are walking around without any weapons drawn. And they really want you to be able to switch weapons during combat.
The problem is there's weapon mastery properties now, so the choice isn't really "am I at range" or "am I in melee", it's also "which is of these mastery properties do I want to use?" The 2014 rules (or a strict interpretation of the current rules) still let you swap, but they don't let you cycle through your weapons with Extra Attack. I doubt they intended to give players analysis paralysis with the most frequent, basic action in the game by having them consider what permutation of weapon swaps they're going to use this round (which is the reason they got rid of delaying your place in the initiative order mid-combat in 5e.)
We also know what the rules look like when they do want you to do something (or have the option to) every time:
Whenever you activate your Second Wind with a Bonus Action, you can move up to half your Speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Whenever you hit with your Unarmed Strike, you can cause it to deal your choice of Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder damage rather than its normal damage type.
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target.
Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
In addition, whenever [your Primal Companion] hits with an attack roll and deals damage, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type.
Whenever you roll a damage die for your Unarmed Strike, you can reroll the die if it rolls a 1, and you must use the new roll.
They could've easily written the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons clause of the Attack action as "You can either equip or unequip one weapon whenever you make an attack as part of this action" or the more consistent "Whenever you make an attack as part of this action, you can either equip or unequip one weapon."
I don't really have an issue with how people choose to play it but I do think it's only a matter of time before this gets hit with an errata for clarity. I wouldn't get too comfortable with the more flexible interpretation just yet.
I need confirmation on how this Feat works now with the 2024 PHB.
The old Crossbow Expert used to allow you to use a Bonus Action attack with a hand crossbow after using the attack action to attack with a 1-handed weapon, like a hand crossbow. Essentially you could use just 1 hand crossbow and get 2 attacks, one with your action and one with your bonus action. That's how it always worked.
But now, in an effort to give players the ability to use 2 hand crossbows (and still do the same amount of damage) it seems like the Feat has changed. Now apparently you need to use a different hand crossbow for the bonus action attack, forcing you to occupy both of your hands.
The problem here is that with both of your hands occupied you can no longer use spells with a material component RAW. So builds that used crossbow expert alongside spell casting now get to use 2 crossbows and cosplay a Demon Hunter from Diablo but they loose the ability to cats a lot of their spells. This just feels like a straight nerf to something the player could always do. Am I reading this Feat wrong? How does it actually work now?
It's a little silly but based on the current wording of the Light property you can actually use two different weapons with the same hand by stowing the first one and drawing the second one. So, if you have two hand crossbows you can keep switching back and forth between them with one hand. Because that's somehow faster . . .
Wouldn't you need an action to stow the weapon you're holding after you draw the second weapon?
In the 2024 rules you are allowed to equip or unequip one weapon as part of an attack that you make with the attack action, and you can do this before or after the attack:
So basically, switching weapons during combat is a thing now. On top of the above mechanic, you also still have the one free object interaction just in case.
Now as for your original question, I expect that something about this will be changed eventually since it doesn't really make sense that it would be faster and easier to attack with two different weapons while using only one hand rather than just using the same weapon twice, but as written that's currently how the Light property works and that's how you would have to do what you're trying to do with the new Crossbow Expert feat.
The way I understood the rule is that it's the same as it always was. Equipping a weapon and making an attack with it doesn't cost 2 actions, but that counts as your free object interaction. So you can't stow a weapon to cast a spell as your object interaction and then equip it to attack because you've already used your object interaction. Do we have confirmation that the "You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action" part of the rule does NOT use up that free object interaction?
Man this wouldn't be a problem at all if they didn't change the Feat or if spells that have material components made irrelevant by the component pouch where changed to just not have that component.
I think that the Feat was changed because you can now already do what the Feat used to say you could do -- such as attacking with a shortsword and then also with a Hand Crossbow as a Bonus Action. The old two-weapon fighting didn't allow this because they had to be melee attacks.
Because of this, they tried to change the Feat to say that "when" you do this, you get some bonuses. But in the process the thing that you're trying to do became a bit more clunky.
I'm confident that the rule about equipping and unequipping a weapon that was quoted above does NOT use your object interaction -- it's a separate rule that is tied to making an attack with an attack action. It's considered to be part of the attack. The other rule is this:
If you are not making an attack with the Attack action, then you would have to use your object interaction to draw or stow a weapon.
So, in your example, you would have to use your object interaction to stow the weapon before casting the spell, but then you could draw that weapon and attack with it as part of your attack action -- assuming that you have enough actions (via Action Surge or something) to be able to cast a spell and also attack with a weapon. The 2024 rules have been intentionally changed to make this sort of thing easier to accomplish.
yes, it's a change I strongly dislike. The only way I only had to have one hand crossbow. Now I have to have two even if visually, I think the whole thing looks silly. Just because the rule says I can ignore loading, my imagination can't just disable that setting.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The issue is what does "as part of your action" really mean?
If I'm a level 6 Bladesinger and use a cantrip with a somatic component as my first attack and then use my main hand crossbow as my second attack (via extra attack), could I then draw my offhand hand crossbow as part of the BONUS action I use to make the third attack even though I stowed it before casting the cantrip earlier in the turn.
The sequence would look like:
Stow offhand --> Cast cantrip --> Crossbow attack --> Draw off hand + Bonus action attack (Repeat next turn)
I see. I believe that technically the attack that you are taking with the Bonus Action in this case is not actually part of an Attack Action. But you can stow or equip a weapon as part of each of your first two attacks in this sequence (assuming that your cantrip involves making an attack roll). Even if a DM interprets the rule as being only one stow or equip for the entire Attack action, you would still also have your object interaction to do your other one, so there are several ways for you to be able to execute the above sequence that you've described.
As far as I understand the "Equipping and Unequipping Weapons" rule, you cannot swap weapons as part of a bonus action attack because it's not part of the Attack action.
---
Yes, that's how I'm reading the Light property also -- that the Bonus action attack provided by the Light property rule is not actually an attack that's part of an Attack action -- instead, it's a defined Bonus Action that includes an attack.
The fact that there can be this sort of distinction is confirmed by this other rule:
However, the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule provides a lot of flexibility since this can be done either before or after an attack and you don't even have to use that weapon for that attack.
The way that I read it, you get this free object interaction once per attack that's associated with any Attack action, not just once per Attack action. Although that's slightly ambiguous.
But regardless, for the proposed Bladesinger sequence (Stow offhand --> Cast cantrip --> Crossbow attack --> Draw off hand + Bonus action attack (Repeat next turn)) there are multiple ways to get this done through some combination of usages of the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule and the Interacting with Things rule.
Alright let’s try it. I have 2 hand crossbows. Crossbow A and Crossbow B.
I start my turn holding Crossbow A in my right hand.
• I cast Eldritch Blast with my left hand.
• Then I Draw Crossbow B with my left hand and fire it as my extra attack.
• Then I fire Crossbow A as my bonus action attack.
• Finally I stow Crossbow B using my free object interaction so I can repeat the entire sequence next turn.
Can we agree/confirm that this works?
Please let me use your example and add my notes/opinions to see if we understand the chain of events the same way:
Bladesinger level 6. Starting my turn holding Crossbow A in my right hand. I take the Attack Action.
I’m unequipping crossbow B at the end of the sequence using the free object interaction. Not the “you can equip/unequip a weapon before/after attack with it” rule because I assume you can’t do both the equipping and unequip for free in the same turn.
I don’t want the DM saying “oh hold on you can’t unequip crossbow B now for free because you equipped it for free earlier”.
If I can freely equip it to attack and then unequip it without any cost then I will but I’m not sure that THAT specifically is allowed.
I'm pretty skeptical about that considering the new Dual Wielder feat tells you you can draw or stow two weapons at a time and the new Thrown property lets you draw the weapon as part of the ranged attack.
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Using the Extra Attack feat, the rules could be interpreted as allowing you to equip or unequip a total of two weapons, or just to interact with one weapon once.
The sentence "you can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action" isn’t entirely clear to me, but @InquisitiveCoder’s reply also makes a valid point.
I mean, personally, I'd not allow it. It reeks of opportunity action exploit, and I'd come down hard on it with no chance of negotiation.
That said, what you suggest I /think/ works as written on round 1, up until you stow crossbow B. I personally read the rule that you get one free equip or unequip per round, and that's it, but it's not 100% clear to me.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
I bolded what I feel are the pertinent words, or and either. They both imply that this is a one time thing.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That’s what I mean. If the whole “you can draw the weapon before making an attack with it” is a one time thing then I can’t also stow the weapon with the same rule.
BUT there’s still the “interact with one object without using an action” rule. So wouldn’t that allow me to stow the crossbow after I use it to attack? That’s why I put it at the very end of the sequence. It’s separate.
Even if we just say, “No you only interact with 1 object each turn even counting the draw and stow connected with attacking” there might be a way to still have this work.
Turn 1: Start with 1 weapon and a free hand. Cast spells with free hand. Then draw your second weapon and fire off your available attacks. (1 object interaction)
Turn 2: Start with 2 weapons, no free hand. Fire off your available attacks, then stow one of your weapons. Then cast spells with your now free hand. (1 object interaction)
Turn 3: (Repeat turn 1)
RAW, doesn’t that work? This “rotation”
Honestly I really believe that the game designers have made a conscious decision to make it a LOT easier to just switch weapons during combat. It's more fun. Tons of groups were ignoring these restrictions anyway. Let the players get to the business of using their cool features instead of wasting an entire turn fiddling with things like this. It's a deliberate design change.
The most recent group that I watched playing online was just saying things like "oh, i'm at range now? I guess I attack with my longbow. Oh, now I'm in melee, I guess I attack with my shortsword". And the DM is constantly ok with this because it's just more fun and it prevents the action from bogging down.
I'm actually not sure what the rule intends, but I do know what it says:
This can definitely be interpreted to mean that you can do this every time you make an attack as part of any Attack action. Not per turn. Not per action. Per attack -- as long as that attack is part of an Attack action.
And it's very flexible. You don't even have to use that weapon. Your attack could be a grapple. Or a bladesinger attack spell.
They really want you to be able to draw your weapons if you are walking around without any weapons drawn. And they really want you to be able to switch weapons during combat.
The problem is there's weapon mastery properties now, so the choice isn't really "am I at range" or "am I in melee", it's also "which is of these mastery properties do I want to use?" The 2014 rules (or a strict interpretation of the current rules) still let you swap, but they don't let you cycle through your weapons with Extra Attack. I doubt they intended to give players analysis paralysis with the most frequent, basic action in the game by having them consider what permutation of weapon swaps they're going to use this round (which is the reason they got rid of delaying your place in the initiative order mid-combat in 5e.)
We also know what the rules look like when they do want you to do something (or have the option to) every time:
They could've easily written the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons clause of the Attack action as "You can either equip or unequip one weapon whenever you make an attack as part of this action" or the more consistent "Whenever you make an attack as part of this action, you can either equip or unequip one weapon."
I don't really have an issue with how people choose to play it but I do think it's only a matter of time before this gets hit with an errata for clarity. I wouldn't get too comfortable with the more flexible interpretation just yet.
The Forum Infestation (TM)