It's more like a grapple. I'd make it a grapple, plus. I would house rule that if you already have someone grappled, you can make an additional grapple check to impose the restrained condition, or instead, pur them in a choke hold, which would not be restrained, but would cut off their air supply.
However, it's unlikely to be a very effective combat technique.
"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds)."
So you'd have to hold the grapple for at least 6 rounds, even in the event of a target with a negative Con mod. Much more for characters with good Con mods. There's a good chance they'll succeed on a check to escape your grapple in that time. But if you are very athletic, possibly not. Still it's going to take a long time, during which time they can still attack you. (Grappled, and even restrained, do not prevent attacks.) Most battles will be over before anyone is going to suffocate.
It's more like a grapple. I'd make it a grapple, plus. I would house rule that if you already have someone grappled, you can make an additional grapple check to impose the restrained condition, or instead, pur them in a choke hold, which would not be restrained, but would cut off their air supply.
See the Grappler feat for doing a Pin after you've grappled a creature.
The grappler feat is crippled by the fact that the grappler is also restrained. If I were to build on it based on grappling martial arts and sports, I would make a few changes and additions:
You can add double your proficiency bonus to grappling checks
On a successful pin, the grappler is grappled while the target is restrained
The pinned target and the grappler give each other half cover
The grappler can make an unarmed attack roll to attempt to choke a pinned target
*The target of the choke must be a humanoid or a giant to insure the proper physiology
*While being choked, the victim must make a constitution saving throw at the beginning of each turn. On failure, it suffers one level of exhaustion unless it is already exhausted
*A choked creature loses concentration
*The attacker can repeat the attempt on each of its turns to maintain the choke
*When the choke ends, the target can shed the exhaustion inflicted by the choke when it rests for at least one minute
This has a few beneficial effects that relate well to grappling. Since your opponent is restrained, and you are only grappled, you will retain your advantage on attacks against them. This also means that a takedown attempt (shove to prone) will happen at advantage against a grappled opponent. When the opponent is pinned, and you choke them, you really put them in a tough spot without shortcutting the normal hitpoint process. It also makes it very tough for them to escape the choke once you put it on them.
Personnaly i would not use the suffocation rule as it bypass the HP of the attacked character.
It all tie in to the way I picture combat in dnd and how i interpret HP. To me HP are note dommage point, a level 20 barbarian with 20 constitution score cannot sustain more sword strike then à level one wizard. A sword trought the heart will kill them both. The level 20 barbarian is just more adept at dodging/blocking the hit, and he can do so for à longer period as well. A critical dealing 28 pts of dmg was just much harder to dodge/Block then à 5 dmg hit. I picture these high dammaging move as attack the defending character barely avoided, in a movie these hit are often depectied in slow motion and followed by a drop off sweat touching the floor, or a small drop of blood dripping from a barely noticible scar. Only the fatal last hit will be definitive.
I would apply the same thinking to chocking. Trying to chock an experimented warrior would be very hard, they learned how to avoid those hit. So in a movie the battle would look like someone deflecting the attackers choking tools, with varying difficulty depending on how much unarmed dommage is dealt with each try. Or even better, as mentioning to the attacking character that is character did not see an opening for such an attack in the first place.
Personnaly i would not use the suffocation rule as it bypass the HP of the attacked character.
It all tie in to the way I picture combat in dnd and how i interpret HP. To me HP are note dommage point, a level 20 barbarian with 20 constitution score cannot sustain more sword strike then à level one wizard. A sword trought the heart will kill them both. The level 20 barbarian is just more adept at dodging/blocking the hit, and he can do so for à longer period as well. A critical dealing 28 pts of dmg was just much harder to dodge/Block then à 5 dmg hit. I picture these high dammaging move as attack the defending character barely avoided, in a movie these hit are often depectied in slow motion and followed by a drop off sweat touching the floor, or a small drop of blood dripping from a barely noticible scar. Only the fatal last hit will be definitive.
I would apply the same thinking to chocking. Trying to chock an experimented warrior would be very hard, they learned how to avoid those hit. So in a movie the battle would look like someone deflecting the attackers choking tools, with varying difficulty depending on how much unarmed dommage is dealt with each try. Or even better, as mentioning to the attacking character that is character did not see an opening for such an attack in the first place.
I believe there should be ways to circumvent hp. That gives players chances to think outside the box. This is not a particularly easy shortcut. It takes many rounds to suffocate someone. If you can succeed in keeping someone restrained for multiple rounds, then I think that should be an alternative path to victory.
But your players shouldn't be mad if the monsters try to bypass their hp too.
I would also make the use their action (or one attack if they have extra attack) to maintain the choke for another round. I don't think I'd make them roll to continue it, but at least some effort should be used to maintain the force needed for choking a creature.
Maybe maintain a choke could be a free or bonus action for characters with the grappler feat to give that feat some use.
i know im kindof late to the party here, i think Doug_Booshaka is onto something by looking at the monster manual rules, so my take here would be the following.
first of all, if were looking at the general rule of either DC's for spells or maneuvers like the battlemaster maneuvers (which a triangle choke would be the closest to) it tends to be a save against 8 + stat modifier + proficiency bonus.
so based on that that, i would homerule a choke like this:
- if you successfully grappled a creature and the grapple was either made with advantage, or you rolled a natural 20 on your athletics check for the grapple, you can attempt a choke on the grappled target once. - just like the grapple, the choke counts as a special form of unarmed attack and replaces one of your attacks if youre taking the attack action, potentially allowing you to grapple, then choke an enemy in the same round. - the target takes 1d4+ str bludgeoning damage, and must make a constitution saving throw against 8 + your Str modifier + your prof modifier if youre proficient in athletics - if the save fails, the target cant breathe, talk or cast spells with verbal components until it escapes the grapple. additionally, if the target fails to break out of the grapple before a number of rounds equal to their con modifier (minimum of 1) the targets hp fall to 0hp.
the requirement for a nat 20 on the grapple, or advantage should balance this out for characters not to pull this against every enemy and it would reflect the idea that your grapple needs a really good grip or something like the element of surprise to wrap your arm or leg around the targets neck.
enemies with a higher constitution score get a few extra chances to escape the grapple. though they still get only one save. once they fail the save on the choke attempt, the countdown is ticking.
im only posting about this now, because the idea to choke out an enemy might become relevant very soon in my game. in my campaign im playing an eldritch knight with a potion of hill giant strength in his pocket.
we have been dealing with a nasty recurring villain who likes to fly around on a wyvern and pelted us with spells from above the last time we encountered her.
my character leveled up a bit and got misty step, so the next time we meet her i plan on chugging the potion, teleporting up to her and choke her out from behind and throw her off her mount. i got to discuss it with my DM too, but hes generally pretty open to stuff like that and encourages us to describe in detail how we execute our attacks in combat.
I would say use the same rules as grappling on a success and have them suffer from suffocation.
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Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
the requirement for a nat 20 on the grapple, or advantage should balance this out for characters not to pull this against every enemy and it would reflect the idea that your grapple needs a really good grip or something like the element of surprise to wrap your arm or leg around the targets neck.
enemies with a higher constitution score get a few extra chances to escape the grapple. though they still get only one save. once they fail the save on the choke attempt, the countdown is ticking.
I get what you want to do but that isn't much like what grappling normally does, what you describe is more like imposing the Restrained condition. And that usually takes a special feature to do (like a monster special attack or the Grappler feat) not just an additional action or attack.
That said I think that your idea is the best one I've seen about choking and it isn't far off from being a workable rule.
we have been dealing with a nasty recurring villain who likes to fly around on a wyvern and pelted us with spells from above the last time we encountered her.
my character leveled up a bit and got misty step, so the next time we meet her i plan on chugging the potion, teleporting up to her and choke her out from behind and throw her off her mount. i got to discuss it with my DM too, but hes generally pretty open to stuff like that and encourages us to describe in detail how we execute our attacks in combat.
Well if your DM allows for teleporting (and he gets to within the 30ft range) and attacking without a fall in-between then that might be a solution, but then all you really need to do is a regular grapple and then just pull him off the Wyvern (sure you'll fall too but that's tomorrows problem).
Another suggestion would be to get Earthbind instead of Misty Step and just keep the Wyvern grounded.
Well if your DM allows for teleporting (and he gets to within the 30ft range) and attacking without a fall in-between then that might be a solution, but then all you really need to do is a regular grapple and then just pull him off the Wyvern (sure you'll fall too but that's tomorrows problem).
Another suggestion would be to get Earthbind instead of Misty Step and just keep the Wyvern grounded.
earthbind isnt available to my character and falling isnt an issue for two reasons. one, id teleport onto the wyvern. theyre very large creatures, so my character should be able to just zap behind her onto the mount if i get into 30 ft range and use the moment of surprise to grab her.
misty step itself is a bonus action, which means i still have my regular action and possibly an action surge to follow up with attacks.
second, my character also has feather fall.
the reason i want to choke the enemy out like that is, because shes a mage (possibly wizard) and might have similar spells at her disposal. so just throwing her off might not be enough if she just feather falls to safety, or worse has other tricks up her sleeve.
I would say use the same rules as grappling on a success and have them suffer from suffocation.
that would neither be practical nor realistic (as realistic as dnd combat can be that is).
soffocating can take minutes by regular dnd rules, and you would have to spend up to 50 rounds in combat trying to remain in a grapple which is never going to happen.
it also doesnt cover the more likely scenario of a blood choke in case of this form of combat. youre not just cutting off your opponents ability to breathe, but the blood flow to their brain. if you have ever seen something like that in a wrestling or mma match, a choke like that can knock someone unconscious in seconds.
Rules for grapple is any time you want to "grab" someone. So it would just be a contested roll for grapple. You succeed and you can choose to chock someone. Just like grappling it would use a free hand. So to grapple and choke someone you would need to use both hands.
If they are not grappled they can just move away from you and stop being chocked, that simple.
Just like a grapple, it will be on the defender to get loose.
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.
If a creature is “being choked,” I say it “is choking.”
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.
If a creature is “being choked,” I say it “is choking.”
this only covers a creature having their air supply cut off. if youre actively "choking" someone, it usually means youre cutting off their blood flow to the brain. in that case, the victim gets knocked out in seconds, not minutes.
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.
If a creature is “being choked,” I say it “is choking.”
this only covers a creature having their air supply cut off. if youre actively "choking" someone, it usually means youre cutting off their blood flow to the brain. in that case, the victim gets knocked out in seconds, not minutes.
Which is why you skip past the “Holding Their Breath” phase of things and go straight to “Choking.” Using these rules you can choke someone out in seconds. Most creatures will be choked unconscious in 1-3 rounds, or 6-18 seconds.
It's more like a grapple. I'd make it a grapple, plus. I would house rule that if you already have someone grappled, you can make an additional grapple check to impose the restrained condition, or instead, pur them in a choke hold, which would not be restrained, but would cut off their air supply.
However, it's unlikely to be a very effective combat technique.
"A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds)."
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#TheEnvironment
So you'd have to hold the grapple for at least 6 rounds, even in the event of a target with a negative Con mod. Much more for characters with good Con mods. There's a good chance they'll succeed on a check to escape your grapple in that time. But if you are very athletic, possibly not. Still it's going to take a long time, during which time they can still attack you. (Grappled, and even restrained, do not prevent attacks.) Most battles will be over before anyone is going to suffocate.
See the Grappler feat for doing a Pin after you've grappled a creature.
The grappler feat is crippled by the fact that the grappler is also restrained. If I were to build on it based on grappling martial arts and sports, I would make a few changes and additions:
This has a few beneficial effects that relate well to grappling. Since your opponent is restrained, and you are only grappled, you will retain your advantage on attacks against them. This also means that a takedown attempt (shove to prone) will happen at advantage against a grappled opponent. When the opponent is pinned, and you choke them, you really put them in a tough spot without shortcutting the normal hitpoint process. It also makes it very tough for them to escape the choke once you put it on them.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Personnaly i would not use the suffocation rule as it bypass the HP of the attacked character.
It all tie in to the way I picture combat in dnd and how i interpret HP. To me HP are note dommage point, a level 20 barbarian with 20 constitution score cannot sustain more sword strike then à level one wizard. A sword trought the heart will kill them both. The level 20 barbarian is just more adept at dodging/blocking the hit, and he can do so for à longer period as well. A critical dealing 28 pts of dmg was just much harder to dodge/Block then à 5 dmg hit. I picture these high dammaging move as attack the defending character barely avoided, in a movie these hit are often depectied in slow motion and followed by a drop off sweat touching the floor, or a small drop of blood dripping from a barely noticible scar. Only the fatal last hit will be definitive.
I would apply the same thinking to chocking. Trying to chock an experimented warrior would be very hard, they learned how to avoid those hit. So in a movie the battle would look like someone deflecting the attackers choking tools, with varying difficulty depending on how much unarmed dommage is dealt with each try. Or even better, as mentioning to the attacking character that is character did not see an opening for such an attack in the first place.
I believe there should be ways to circumvent hp. That gives players chances to think outside the box. This is not a particularly easy shortcut. It takes many rounds to suffocate someone. If you can succeed in keeping someone restrained for multiple rounds, then I think that should be an alternative path to victory.
But your players shouldn't be mad if the monsters try to bypass their hp too.
I would also make the use their action (or one attack if they have extra attack) to maintain the choke for another round. I don't think I'd make them roll to continue it, but at least some effort should be used to maintain the force needed for choking a creature.
Maybe maintain a choke could be a free or bonus action for characters with the grappler feat to give that feat some use.
Choke is not part of the rules for a good reason, it'd be too easy to put out a creature, be it NPC, monster, or PC.
i know im kindof late to the party here, i think Doug_Booshaka is onto something by looking at the monster manual rules, so my take here would be the following.
first of all, if were looking at the general rule of either DC's for spells or maneuvers like the battlemaster maneuvers (which a triangle choke would be the closest to) it tends to be a save against 8 + stat modifier + proficiency bonus.
so based on that that, i would homerule a choke like this:
- if you successfully grappled a creature and the grapple was either made with advantage, or you rolled a natural 20 on your athletics check for the grapple, you can attempt a choke on the grappled target once.
- just like the grapple, the choke counts as a special form of unarmed attack and replaces one of your attacks if youre taking the attack action, potentially allowing you to grapple, then choke an enemy in the same round.
- the target takes 1d4+ str bludgeoning damage, and must make a constitution saving throw against 8 + your Str modifier + your prof modifier if youre proficient in athletics
- if the save fails, the target cant breathe, talk or cast spells with verbal components until it escapes the grapple. additionally, if the target fails to break out of the grapple before a number of rounds equal to their con modifier (minimum of 1) the targets hp fall to 0hp.
the requirement for a nat 20 on the grapple, or advantage should balance this out for characters not to pull this against every enemy and it would reflect the idea that your grapple needs a really good grip or something like the element of surprise to wrap your arm or leg around the targets neck.
enemies with a higher constitution score get a few extra chances to escape the grapple. though they still get only one save. once they fail the save on the choke attempt, the countdown is ticking.
im only posting about this now, because the idea to choke out an enemy might become relevant very soon in my game. in my campaign im playing an eldritch knight with a potion of hill giant strength in his pocket.
we have been dealing with a nasty recurring villain who likes to fly around on a wyvern and pelted us with spells from above the last time we encountered her.
my character leveled up a bit and got misty step, so the next time we meet her i plan on chugging the potion, teleporting up to her and choke her out from behind and throw her off her mount. i got to discuss it with my DM too, but hes generally pretty open to stuff like that and encourages us to describe in detail how we execute our attacks in combat.
I would say use the same rules as grappling on a success and have them suffer from suffocation.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
I get what you want to do but that isn't much like what grappling normally does, what you describe is more like imposing the Restrained condition. And that usually takes a special feature to do (like a monster special attack or the Grappler feat) not just an additional action or attack.
That said I think that your idea is the best one I've seen about choking and it isn't far off from being a workable rule.
Well if your DM allows for teleporting (and he gets to within the 30ft range) and attacking without a fall in-between then that might be a solution, but then all you really need to do is a regular grapple and then just pull him off the Wyvern (sure you'll fall too but that's tomorrows problem).
Another suggestion would be to get Earthbind instead of Misty Step and just keep the Wyvern grounded.
earthbind isnt available to my character and falling isnt an issue for two reasons. one, id teleport onto the wyvern. theyre very large creatures, so my character should be able to just zap behind her onto the mount if i get into 30 ft range and use the moment of surprise to grab her.
misty step itself is a bonus action, which means i still have my regular action and possibly an action surge to follow up with attacks.
second, my character also has feather fall.
the reason i want to choke the enemy out like that is, because shes a mage (possibly wizard) and might have similar spells at her disposal. so just throwing her off might not be enough if she just feather falls to safety, or worse has other tricks up her sleeve.
that would neither be practical nor realistic (as realistic as dnd combat can be that is).
soffocating can take minutes by regular dnd rules, and you would have to spend up to 50 rounds in combat trying to remain in a grapple which is never going to happen.
it also doesnt cover the more likely scenario of a blood choke in case of this form of combat. youre not just cutting off your opponents ability to breathe, but the blood flow to their brain. if you have ever seen something like that in a wrestling or mma match, a choke like that can knock someone unconscious in seconds.
Rules for grapple is any time you want to "grab" someone. So it would just be a contested roll for grapple. You succeed and you can choose to chock someone. Just like grappling it would use a free hand. So to grapple and choke someone you would need to use both hands.
If they are not grappled they can just move away from you and stop being chocked, that simple.
Just like a grapple, it will be on the defender to get loose.
As per the rules for suffocating:
If a creature is “being choked,” I say it “is choking.”
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this only covers a creature having their air supply cut off. if youre actively "choking" someone, it usually means youre cutting off their blood flow to the brain. in that case, the victim gets knocked out in seconds, not minutes.
Which is why you skip past the “Holding Their Breath” phase of things and go straight to “Choking.” Using these rules you can choke someone out in seconds. Most creatures will be choked unconscious in 1-3 rounds, or 6-18 seconds.
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