Warlock Gaze of Two Minds questions

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from jl8e>>

Anyway, echo knight is irrelevant. My point is that the weapon attack is part of the spell. If the spell is countered, the attack does not happen. How is it not part of the spell's effects?

It is part of the spell, but it is still restricted by weapon attack rules in addition to the spell rules. Gaze of Two Minds doesn't affect the weapon attack rules at all. You still must use the weapon which is on your body and not displaced by Gaze of Two Minds because Gaze of Two Minds doesn't say it does that. 

And the weapon attack rules say I can attack anybody within reach of my the other character's location. 

The weapon attack rules are not affected by Gaze of Two Minds so they actually say you can attack anybody within reach of your physical location. 

Quote from jl8e >>

Anyway, if you're using the weapon attack rules, then what's the justification for saying that touch spells also can't be used?

Casting Spells > Range

Touch. The spell’s effect originates on something, as defined by the spell, that the spellcaster must touch within their reach.

Note that you are not casting a spell on a target within range, defined by the spell casting rules. You must touch a creature within your Reach. Gaze of Two Minds does not change your reach or where your reach is measured from. Your arms are not suddenly 60 feet long. Your Gaze target cannot touch the creature for you. You can only touch targets you can physically touch. You are injecting portals into an ability that didn't include them and Valve is not happy.

Quote from jl8e >>

I'm not at that location; I can just use it. To use a programming metaphor, I have a pointer to that location. (Or a reference if you use those fancy newfangled languages that aren't made entirely of sharp edges and guns loaded with foot-seeking bullets. :)

If you are not at the location from where you cast the spell, you cannot measure reach from that location.

Every language has foot-seeking bullets. I am having issues with TypeScript which I don't think existed at the time of the list of guns and feet (but JavaScript did) and it seems quite adept at shooting me in the foot at least. I prefer Assembly, in theory at least. That's a tad bit off topic. 

Quote from jl8e >>

(There's nothing fictionally wrong with me swinging my sword as part of a spell and the magic transmitting the effects of the blow along with the rest of the spell's effects. It's not really any more difficult to buy than me casting a lightning bolt and the bolt emerging from Sue the fighter's space.)

(There's also at least a somewhat plausible RAI argument, since we're well outside of what's implied by "gaze of two minds", but arguably, so is fireball.)

Fireball and Lightning Bolt have effects that are not at all constrained by mechanics outside of the spell casting rules and their effects are instaneous.

True Strike, Booming Blade, and Green Flame Blade are constrained by your physical weapon and reach. Inflict Wounds is constrained by reach.

Sustained Emanations originating from the caster are weird and are probably best to rule that they aren't affected.

Other sustained spells may work on a case-by-case basis.

Where we disagree is basically surrounding the restriction on reach as it applies here. Gaze of Two Minds doesn't address it and the effects don't inherently create a contradiction so Specific Overrides General cannot be invoked. Gaze of Two Minds does not RAW work with weapon cantrips and touch spells. Do what you want at your table, of course, but I don't think it is RAI.

The best approach is going to be for the DM and Warlock player with Gaze of Two Minds to discuss the Warlock's spells in advance to confirm how they will work together at the table.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

The longer this goes the more im with jl8e on this. How about touch, how is delivering a touch spell different than a firebolt shooting from your hand. Then we start asking melf, eyebite etc and now it just starts becoming a pain in the ass to administer as almost every spell will have an argument for and against when the simple it just works answer is there. 

 That was always my take. It's simpler, I believe, and the same for Invoke Duplicity, but it's true that when a spell's effect needs to have a physical object, I end up debating it internally.

I've already shared my POV in other threads, so I'm not going to repeat it here. In any case, I know not everybody agrees, and they bring good arguments to support their ideas.

- Gaze of Two Minds 2024 -- multiple senses at once? 
- Invoke Duplicity
- Does Antimagic Field suppress spells cast by Divine Intervention? (or any magic made through Channel Divinity)
- Manifest Mind vs Silence
- Would this work? - Rules & Game Mechanics
- RAW/RAI - Invoke Duplicity + Wrath of the Sea (comment #15)
- Trickery Domain cast spell

Yeah I was on the other side of this in a few of those threads. But jl8e ended up convincing me. Fireball for example specifically describes the effect as coming from your body I don't see how that is any different than a touch spell coming from my body. I've previously went with teleport effects ranges are not increased and weapon effects don't work. But I'm willing to allow those now. 

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

Fireball for example specifically describes the effect as coming from your body I don't see how that is any different than a touch spell coming from my body.

Fireball doesn't mention any mechanic regarding your reach. It's easy to move the origin to a new space without injecting phantom limbs to play tag with. That's the difference.

I believe RAI is fairly clear here. The intent of Gaze of the Two Minds is the same as that of the telepathic link portion of Find Familiar.

The text under Find Familiar makes it clear that they're talking about extending the range of Touch spells - and it's clear that's precisely what it does and what rules it leverages "specific instead of general" to overrule.

The text under Gaze of Two Minds doesn't do this. None of the text under Gaze of Two Minds overrules the general rules about Emanations, Range, Line of Sight/Clear Path, etc. The phrase "you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature’s space " doesn't actually mean anything because it is never defined in terms where it could possibly mean something. You and I both know they mean "you can Chill Touch someone adjacent to your buddy", but it doesn't actually allow that because it doesn't overrule the limitations of Touch spells - which are measured from the caster regardless of whose eyes you can look through. We might debate whether it should allow you to shoot a Fireball around the corner, but Gaze of Two Minds doesn't actually overrule the Clear Path requirements so we can't. What happens with Concentration Emanations that may be 'cast' on another target via Gaze but whose ongoing effects all reference the caster themselves - and then ponder what happens when Gaze gets interrupted (range, not spending the Bonus Actions, etc.)

So I'd argue that any interpretation that permits essentially anything suggested here beyond mere sensory benefits isn't RAW. At which point it becomes an RAI discussion - and there's no real guidance on just how far the rules are intended to go with this ability.

To the people saying gaze of two minds doesn't displace the weapon:

So you can't cast spells with material components either? Or do your spellcasting focus or material components move with you? If so, why do they move with you and your weapon does not?

Let's just be reasonable and not assume that only your naked body is "moved" to the location of Gaze of Two Minds. 

Quote from Unilythe >>

To the people saying gaze of two minds doesn't displace the weapon:

So you can't cast spells with material components either? Or do your spellcasting focus or material components move with you? If so, why do they move with you and your weapon does not?

Let's just be reasonable and not assume that only your naked body is "moved" to the location of Gaze of Two Minds. 

Your naked body is not moved.  The weapon and material components is at the spellcasters location.  The spellcaster creates the spell using V/S/M at their location.  The origin of the spell effect is not.

Quote from Character77006 >>

Quote from Unilythe >>

To the people saying gaze of two minds doesn't displace the weapon:

So you can't cast spells with material components either? Or do your spellcasting focus or material components move with you? If so, why do they move with you and your weapon does not?

Let's just be reasonable and not assume that only your naked body is "moved" to the location of Gaze of Two Minds. 

 

Your naked body is not moved.  The weapon and material components is at the spellcasters location.  The spellcaster creates the spell using V/S/M at their location.  The origin of the spell effect is not.

 That's not what the invocation says. The invocation doesn't say only the spell effect happens as if you are at the other creature's location. It says you cast the spell as if you are there. Casting a spell includes the verbal, material, somatic components. 

Quote from Unilythe >>

That's not what the invocation says. The invocation doesn't say only the spell effect happens as if you are at the other creature's location. It says you cast the spell as if you are there. Casting a spell includes the verbal, material, somatic components. 

Gaze of the Two Minds is not free teleportation. The Warlock's body never moves and neither do their material components.

as if 

I assume these two words are the hang up.   AS IF means that you are not actually there.  You are elsewhere and the "as if" = origin of the effect starts there.

I didn't say the body actually moves. You're still casting as if you are in the other location. You can't cherry pick what that does and doesn't affect. For all intents and our purposes, you are in the other location when casting the spell. 

Quote from Unilythe >>

I didn't say the body actually moves. You're still casting as if you are in the other location. You can't cherry pick what that does and doesn't affect. For all intents and our purposes, you are in the other location when casting the spell. 

Correct, but the spell emanates/originates from the GOTM Creature.

Quote from Character77006 >>

Quote from Unilythe >>

I didn't say the body actually moves. You're still casting as if you are in the other location. You can't cherry pick what that does and doesn't affect. For all intents and our purposes, you are in the other location when casting the spell. 

 

Correct, but the spell emanates/originates from the GOTM Creature.

Yes. Exactly.

The argument is that the spell, whatever it does, emanates from the GOTM creature.

I don't understand your point. Could you rephrase what you mean?