The Antimagic Field description says "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area."
Since Divine Intervention's spells originate from Gods (it's literally called "Divine Intervention"), do they count as "cast by a deity"?
Regarding divine magic like Invoke Duplicity, would casting Antimagic through the duplicate cancel the duplicate? RAW, the duplicate was created before casting the Antimagic spell, and Invoke Duplicity technically isn't a spell, so neither "create other magical effects inside the aura" nor "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area" should apply, right?
TheDivine Intervention spell is still cast by the Cleric and not the diety so i believe it would still be suppressed in an Antimagic Field.
This is definitely correct with respect to the 2024 rules. The 2014 version of Divine Intervention is a little more vague, but it seems to imply that it's the deity directly producing the effect of a spell. I think there's a solid argument that if you're playing under 2014 rules it should work.
The only thing the spell says about non-spell magical effects that are not linked to items is that they cannot be "created" inside the aura. It doesn't say anything about how the field affects ongoing magical effects that are neither spells, nor coming from an item.
And I think it can be argued that they should remain in effect considering that the spell already makes an exception for other divine magic when it says "except those cast by an Artifact or a deity". So the idea doesn't come from nowhere and makes sense in this context.
My idea would be to use Invoke Duplicity, then use Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells to create an Antimagic Field that targets the duplicate, then move the duplicate around without casting any other spells with it.
If I check the description of Antimagic Field looking for something that would disallow it, I'm not finding any.
An aura of antimagic surrounds you in 10-foot Emanation. No one can cast spells (I'm not casting spells), take Magic actions(I'm not taking magic actions), or create other magical effects inside the aura (I'm not creating any magical effects inside the aura once it's active, since the duplicate was active first), and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it (the only effect will come from the Antimagic Field itself, so this condition is also satistified). Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it. (No magic items involved so this one is irrelevant)
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura. (Invoke Duplicity isn't AoE, so this is also irrelevant)
Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration. (Invoke Duplicity is not a spell, so this is also irrelevant)
Dispel Magic has no effect on the aura, and the auras created by different Antimagic Field spells don’t nullify each other.
As part of the same action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing Material components.
So as far as that specific effect, Plague is exactly correct. If other Channel Divinity options are up for debate, that depends on whether they are areas of effect or not, or whether there is an attempt to make them in the area.
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.
No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it.
Exactly. And my intention don't involve either. It feels like a loophole, but I also feel that if the devs really wanted to prevent any magical effect existing in the area besides ongoing spells from Artifacts and deities, they could have just written so instead of going into so much details about what is and what isn't allowed.
When a cleric does something, it is the cleric doing it. Even Divine Intervention is the cleric casting the spell (read it again). All of a cleric's spells are given by their deity, after all. The "cast" is doing all the work in the sentence "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area." The deity has to do it, not through the cleric, or even some celestial.
But it is apparent you already made up your mind. I'm not going to argue further.
Under my understanding, Invoke Duplicity is useless due to this line:
[...]No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.
So it's true you're not creating a new magical effect inside the aura, but that thing (Invoke Duplicity) can't affect anything inside the aura.
When a cleric does something, it is the cleric doing it. Even Divine Intervention is the cleric casting the spell (read it again). All of a cleric's spells are given by their deity, after all. The "cast" is doing all the work in the sentence "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area." The deity has to do it, not through the cleric, or even some celestial.
But it is apparent you already made up your mind. I'm not going to argue further.
Oh sorry I was not talking about Divine Intervention. I totally agree with you on that one. I was talking about Invoke Duplicity :)
All channel divinity effects are magical effects you produce.
"Create". The keyword is "create" :) So I'm not allowed to create a duplicate while the aura is active. We agree on that. But I'm still allowed to create them before summoning the aura, right? And I see nothing there saying that ongoing magical effects are suppressed or dispelled by the aura... at least not in a way that would apply to Channel Divinity... Do you see one?
Under my understanding, Invoke Duplicity is useless due to this line:
[...]No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.
So it's true you're not creating a new magical effect inside the aura, but that thing (Invoke Duplicity) can't affect anything inside the aura.
You're right when you say it can't affect anything inside the aura. But I don't think it's useless. It is still the target of the Antimagic Field spell, and that makes it quite useful imo :)
Under my understanding, Invoke Duplicity is useless due to this line:
[...]No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.
So it's true you're not creating a new magical effect inside the aura, but that thing (Invoke Duplicity) can't affect anything inside the aura.
So are you saying that an emanation coming from that CD effect would not work, because that would make the duplicate (a magical effect) affect something inside the area?
So are you saying that an emanation coming from that CD effect would not work, because that would make the duplicate (a magical effect) affect something inside the area?
I would also ask: is the aura considered inside itself?
The question, for TarodNet, is whether they think a different magical effect (the duplicate) can affect a thing inside the aura through an emanation. Remember that "those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it." I am trying to parse out what they think "otherwise affect anything inside of it" means.
It might even mean that a magical effect can't be the source of the emanation because that would be a magical effect affecting the aura itself, which is a thing, as you astutely point out, that counts as not affect-able.
I really am just interested in the implications of what TarodNet said said.
It might even mean that a magical effect can't be the source of the emanation because that would be a magical effect affecting the aura itself, which is a thing, as you astutely point out, that counts as not affect-able.
Ah I see what you mean. But it's not the source. It's the target. The source is the character that creates the emanation, and they are outside of it, so unaffected by it.
However, you might have a point in the sense that moving the duplicate might not trigger the aura to move, and so the aura would stay immobile. I would still say it has its uses, but it would indeed make it less useful than what I originally had in mind. One could also argue that since this restriction only applies to effects inside the aura, the duplicate could still "drag" the aura behind it once it comes outside of it. It's very unclear what would happen since "the emanation's target is the duplicate" and "the duplicate can't affect the emanation" while not contradictory, conflict with each other.
Under my understanding, Invoke Duplicity is useless due to this line:
[...]No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.
So it's true you're not creating a new magical effect inside the aura, but that thing (Invoke Duplicity) can't affect anything inside the aura.
So are you saying that an emanation coming from that CD effect would not work, because that would make the duplicate (a magical effect) affect something inside the area?
I think so, but also because Areas of Effect are covered in Antimagic Field:
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.
I think so, but also because Areas of Effect are covered in Antimagic Field:
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.
Why? If this was an issue, this would also be a problem when cast normally. It would be like saying that Antimagic Field can never be cast in any circumstance because it automatically cancels itself. I mean, I assume that the AoE you're referring to is Antimagic Field, since Invoke Duplicity doesn't have an AoE.
It's also important to note that the way Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells works, the PC is still the source of the spell casting. All it does is changing the target to the illusory duplicate instead.
Level 3: Invoke Duplicity
As a Bonus Action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to create a perfect visual illusion of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of yourself. The illusion is intangible and doesn’t occupy its space. It lasts for 1 minute, but it ends early if you dismiss it (no action required) or have the Incapacitated condition. The illusion is animated and mimics your expressions and gestures. While it persists, you gain the following benefits.
Cast Spells. You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses.
Distract. When both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have Advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
Move. As a Bonus Action, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is within 120 feet of yourself.
I think so, but also because Areas of Effect are covered in Antimagic Field:
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.
Why? If this was an issue, this would also be a problem when cast normally. It would be like saying that Antimagic Field can never be cast in any circumstance because it automatically cancels itself. I mean, I assume that the AoE you're referring to is Antimagic Field, since Invoke Duplicity doesn't have an AoE.
Ok, one question, since the thread is growing fast and it's hard to keep up. Putting aside Invoke Duplicity, let's say you're the caster, so you cast Antimagic Field, and you don't want to be affected by it. Is that what you're going for?
The Antimagic Field description says "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area."
Since Divine Intervention's spells originate from Gods (it's literally called "Divine Intervention"), do they count as "cast by a deity"?
Regarding divine magic like Invoke Duplicity, would casting Antimagic through the duplicate cancel the duplicate? RAW, the duplicate was created before casting the Antimagic spell, and Invoke Duplicity technically isn't a spell, so neither "create other magical effects inside the aura" nor "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area" should apply, right?
The Divine Intervention spell is still cast by the Cleric and not the diety so i believe it would still be suppressed in an Antimagic Field.
All Channel Divinity are magical effects and should be affected by Antimagic Field.
This is definitely correct with respect to the 2024 rules. The 2014 version of Divine Intervention is a little more vague, but it seems to imply that it's the deity directly producing the effect of a spell. I think there's a solid argument that if you're playing under 2014 rules it should work.
The only thing the spell says about non-spell magical effects that are not linked to items is that they cannot be "created" inside the aura. It doesn't say anything about how the field affects ongoing magical effects that are neither spells, nor coming from an item.
And I think it can be argued that they should remain in effect considering that the spell already makes an exception for other divine magic when it says "except those cast by an Artifact or a deity". So the idea doesn't come from nowhere and makes sense in this context.
My idea would be to use Invoke Duplicity, then use Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells to create an Antimagic Field that targets the duplicate, then move the duplicate around without casting any other spells with it.
If I check the description of Antimagic Field looking for something that would disallow it, I'm not finding any.
From divine intervention:
So as far as that specific effect, Plague is exactly correct. If other Channel Divinity options are up for debate, that depends on whether they are areas of effect or not, or whether there is an attempt to make them in the area.
Exactly. And my intention don't involve either. It feels like a loophole, but I also feel that if the devs really wanted to prevent any magical effect existing in the area besides ongoing spells from Artifacts and deities, they could have just written so instead of going into so much details about what is and what isn't allowed.
When a cleric does something, it is the cleric doing it. Even Divine Intervention is the cleric casting the spell (read it again). All of a cleric's spells are given by their deity, after all. The "cast" is doing all the work in the sentence "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area." The deity has to do it, not through the cleric, or even some celestial.
But it is apparent you already made up your mind. I'm not going to argue further.
Under my understanding, Invoke Duplicity is useless due to this line:
So it's true you're not creating a new magical effect inside the aura, but that thing (Invoke Duplicity) can't affect anything inside the aura.
All channel divinity effects are magical effects you produce.
Oh sorry I was not talking about Divine Intervention. I totally agree with you on that one. I was talking about Invoke Duplicity :)
"Create". The keyword is "create" :)
So I'm not allowed to create a duplicate while the aura is active. We agree on that.
But I'm still allowed to create them before summoning the aura, right?
And I see nothing there saying that ongoing magical effects are suppressed or dispelled by the aura... at least not in a way that would apply to Channel Divinity... Do you see one?
You're right when you say it can't affect anything inside the aura. But I don't think it's useless. It is still the target of the Antimagic Field spell, and that makes it quite useful imo :)
So are you saying that an emanation coming from that CD effect would not work, because that would make the duplicate (a magical effect) affect something inside the area?
I would also ask: is the aura considered inside itself?
The question, for TarodNet, is whether they think a different magical effect (the duplicate) can affect a thing inside the aura through an emanation. Remember that "those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it." I am trying to parse out what they think "otherwise affect anything inside of it" means.
It might even mean that a magical effect can't be the source of the emanation because that would be a magical effect affecting the aura itself, which is a thing, as you astutely point out, that counts as not affect-able.
I really am just interested in the implications of what TarodNet said said.
Ah I see what you mean. But it's not the source. It's the target. The source is the character that creates the emanation, and they are outside of it, so unaffected by it.
However, you might have a point in the sense that moving the duplicate might not trigger the aura to move, and so the aura would stay immobile.
I would still say it has its uses, but it would indeed make it less useful than what I originally had in mind.
One could also argue that since this restriction only applies to effects inside the aura, the duplicate could still "drag" the aura behind it once it comes outside of it.
It's very unclear what would happen since "the emanation's target is the duplicate" and "the duplicate can't affect the emanation" while not contradictory, conflict with each other.
I think so, but also because Areas of Effect are covered in Antimagic Field:
That is at least one implication, depending on how expansive "otherwise affect" is.
Why? If this was an issue, this would also be a problem when cast normally.
It would be like saying that Antimagic Field can never be cast in any circumstance because it automatically cancels itself.
I mean, I assume that the AoE you're referring to is Antimagic Field, since Invoke Duplicity doesn't have an AoE.
It's also important to note that the way Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells works, the PC is still the source of the spell casting. All it does is changing the target to the illusory duplicate instead.
Ok, one question, since the thread is growing fast and it's hard to keep up. Putting aside Invoke Duplicity, let's say you're the caster, so you cast Antimagic Field, and you don't want to be affected by it. Is that what you're going for?