Yeah TarodNet that seems to be the RAW but if the PC still wins initiative, what can they do on their turn, what do you tell them is going on. Does their turn pass because they are oblivious to what is about to occur. Do you give them some vague, you sense something but you are not sure what prompt where people know that basically means an ambush so they ready an action out of the blue, do you let them see the future, you see an orc shimmering into visibility swinging a blow at Frank.
For case A, since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat hidden, unseen, and unheard by a foe who is completely unaware, then yes, that PC can’t make an attack on the Garroter because they don't know it's there. Maybe running is a valid option? :D
This was indeed my suggestion in one of the threads:
As the DM, you might let the monster attack first and then begin combat if that feels more fitting, even though the rules are now different compared to the 2014 ones.
Also, you can attack an Invisible creature with Disadvantage if you find it, but I’m understanding this doesn’t seem to be your scenario.
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative. We use beyond/VTT so I have people roll a few sets of disadvantage inits when we start for the night, and just use those for these circumstances so the ambush feels like a ambush, as you study the ancient symbols on the door, you stare in wonder at the blade that suddenly is protruding from your chest. Sam, you see an orc pulling a blade out of franks back, its your turn. instead of roll initiative folks, an ambush totally isn't happening right now.
I have been thinking of letting people who win initiative in a ambush change it to whatever init score they want. So they can go right after the ambush, maybe right after the fighter so someone will likely close allowing them to sneak attack on 1, just in case more ambushers are popping in etc.
5e and 5e24 rules on surprise simply don't make sense, as such we don't use them.
What you do, is up to you, but I will tell you what I do. My extended group, having played in my previous campaign and seen it work, now do it this way as well.
First I ask for perception checks to see if anyone notices the ambush before it occurs, then I ask for Initiative to be rolled.
Let's assume the following initiative rolls
22 - Player A (who failed perception check to notice the ambush) 20 - Player B (Who likewise failed the preception check to notice the ambush) 16 - Ambusher A 14 - Ambusher B 13 - Player C (who failed the perception check to notice the ambush)
Although players A and B rolled highest, they did not know anything was wrong, their turns are skipped this round (technically they aren't being skipped, they're just doing whatever non-combat thing they were in the process of doing since they didn't know a fight was about to start). In many cases I'll ask Players A and B what they want to do on their turn, but remind them they know nothing of any fight about to break out, so they can only do non-combat things.
Ambusher A is the first to take a combat related turn, then intitiative continues as normal with each person taking their turn on their initiative count (Ambusher A, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc.). Players A and B will take their first combat turn, at the top of round 2.
Example 2: Let's say Player C (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush, but their initiative roll is less than the ambushers. We proceed just as described above. Ambusher A goes first, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, but were too slow to react to go first.
Example 3: Let's say Player B (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush. Since they noticed it, and beat the ambusher on initiative, they go first. Round starts with Player B, then Ambusher A, Ambusher B, Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, and were fast enough to go first.
If the DM rules there's no way for the PCs to spot the ambush before it happens, then that first round starts on the ambusher's turn.
Surprise rules are probably impossible to get right in all situations. In part because "right" is not something you can get people to agree on, and in part because, as mentioned upthread, "turn order" is a simplifying abstraction for a complex set of near-simultaneous actions.
The old way was really brutal -- a surprise round could effectively end the combat before it started, especially if the surpassing side rolled well on initiative, giving at least some of them two actions before the other side gets any.
The 24 ones are ok for a more typical ambush -- multiple opponents break cover and attack. There, it's believable that somebody who's fast and lucky might manage to get their shot in first. (Again, this requires you to acknowledge that the combatants aren't really going in turns, so the people going "before" the ambushers aren't actually acting before they know there are ambushers.)
For the truly out-of-the-blue attack, it strains verisimilitude that people would be able to act "first", so you have to do something:
The RAW answer, which sort of works with the understanding that turn order isn't real -- roll initiative, and let the chips fall where they may. The players going before the ambushers may not be able to strike back first, but they can do something, probably holding an action. This represents what they could do in the confusion of the first round.
Give the ambusher a freebie turn, then go in initiative order -- this risks the surprise round problem, but it's probably what most people do for a solo ambusher.
Roll initiative, and skip over everyone who rolled higher than the ambusher -- sort of penalizes people for rolling well, but not really. They get to act before the ambusher gets a second shot. This probably works best for an out-of-the-blue ambush with multiple attackers.
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Yeah TarodNet that seems to be the RAW but if the PC still wins initiative, what can they do on their turn, what do you tell them is going on. Does their turn pass because they are oblivious to what is about to occur. Do you give them some vague, you sense something but you are not sure what prompt where people know that basically means an ambush so they ready an action out of the blue, do you let them see the future, you see an orc shimmering into visibility swinging a blow at Frank.
(I added A and B to my reply for clarity)
For case A, since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat hidden, unseen, and unheard by a foe who is completely unaware, then yes, that PC can’t make an attack on the Garroter because they don't know it's there. Maybe running is a valid option? :D
This was indeed my suggestion in one of the threads:
EDIT: for clarity.
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative. We use beyond/VTT so I have people roll a few sets of disadvantage inits when we start for the night, and just use those for these circumstances so the ambush feels like a ambush, as you study the ancient symbols on the door, you stare in wonder at the blade that suddenly is protruding from your chest. Sam, you see an orc pulling a blade out of franks back, its your turn. instead of roll initiative folks, an ambush totally isn't happening right now.
I have been thinking of letting people who win initiative in a ambush change it to whatever init score they want. So they can go right after the ambush, maybe right after the fighter so someone will likely close allowing them to sneak attack on 1, just in case more ambushers are popping in etc.
5e and 5e24 rules on surprise simply don't make sense, as such we don't use them.
What you do, is up to you, but I will tell you what I do. My extended group, having played in my previous campaign and seen it work, now do it this way as well.
First I ask for perception checks to see if anyone notices the ambush before it occurs, then I ask for Initiative to be rolled.
Let's assume the following initiative rolls
22 - Player A (who failed perception check to notice the ambush)
20 - Player B (Who likewise failed the preception check to notice the ambush)
16 - Ambusher A
14 - Ambusher B
13 - Player C (who failed the perception check to notice the ambush)
Although players A and B rolled highest, they did not know anything was wrong, their turns are skipped this round (technically they aren't being skipped, they're just doing whatever non-combat thing they were in the process of doing since they didn't know a fight was about to start). In many cases I'll ask Players A and B what they want to do on their turn, but remind them they know nothing of any fight about to break out, so they can only do non-combat things.
Ambusher A is the first to take a combat related turn, then intitiative continues as normal with each person taking their turn on their initiative count (Ambusher A, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc.). Players A and B will take their first combat turn, at the top of round 2.
Example 2: Let's say Player C (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush, but their initiative roll is less than the ambushers. We proceed just as described above. Ambusher A goes first, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, but were too slow to react to go first.
Example 3: Let's say Player B (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush. Since they noticed it, and beat the ambusher on initiative, they go first. Round starts with Player B, then Ambusher A, Ambusher B, Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, and were fast enough to go first.
If the DM rules there's no way for the PCs to spot the ambush before it happens, then that first round starts on the ambusher's turn.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Surprise rules are probably impossible to get right in all situations. In part because "right" is not something you can get people to agree on, and in part because, as mentioned upthread, "turn order" is a simplifying abstraction for a complex set of near-simultaneous actions.
The old way was really brutal -- a surprise round could effectively end the combat before it started, especially if the surpassing side rolled well on initiative, giving at least some of them two actions before the other side gets any.
The 24 ones are ok for a more typical ambush -- multiple opponents break cover and attack. There, it's believable that somebody who's fast and lucky might manage to get their shot in first. (Again, this requires you to acknowledge that the combatants aren't really going in turns, so the people going "before" the ambushers aren't actually acting before they know there are ambushers.)
For the truly out-of-the-blue attack, it strains verisimilitude that people would be able to act "first", so you have to do something: