Yeah TarodNet that seems to be the RAW but if the PC still wins initiative, what can they do on their turn, what do you tell them is going on. Does their turn pass because they are oblivious to what is about to occur. Do you give them some vague, you sense something but you are not sure what prompt where people know that basically means an ambush so they ready an action out of the blue, do you let them see the future, you see an orc shimmering into visibility swinging a blow at Frank.
For case A, since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat hidden, unseen, and unheard by a foe who is completely unaware, then yes, that PC can’t make an attack on the Garroter because they don't know it's there. Maybe running is a valid option? :D
This was one of my suggestion in one of the threads:
As the DM, you might let the monster attack first and then begin combat if that feels more fitting, even though the rules are now different compared to the 2014 ones.
Also, you can attack an Invisible creature with Disadvantage if you find it, but I’m understanding this doesn’t seem to be your scenario.
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative. We use beyond/VTT so I have people roll a few sets of disadvantage inits when we start for the night, and just use those for these circumstances so the ambush feels like a ambush, as you study the ancient symbols on the door, you stare in wonder at the blade that suddenly is protruding from your chest. Sam, you see an orc pulling a blade out of franks back, its your turn. instead of roll initiative folks, an ambush totally isn't happening right now.
I have been thinking of letting people who win initiative in a ambush change it to whatever init score they want. So they can go right after the ambush, maybe right after the fighter so someone will likely close allowing them to sneak attack on 1, just in case more ambushers are popping in etc.
5e and 5e24 rules on surprise simply don't make sense, as such we don't use them.
What you do, is up to you, but I will tell you what I do. My extended group, having played in my previous campaign and seen it work, now do it this way as well.
First I ask for perception checks to see if anyone notices the ambush before it occurs, then I ask for Initiative to be rolled.
Let's assume the following initiative rolls
22 - Player A (who failed perception check to notice the ambush) 20 - Player B (Who likewise failed the preception check to notice the ambush) 16 - Ambusher A 14 - Ambusher B 13 - Player C (who failed the perception check to notice the ambush)
Although players A and B rolled highest, they did not know anything was wrong, their turns are skipped this round (technically they aren't being skipped, they're just doing whatever non-combat thing they were in the process of doing since they didn't know a fight was about to start). In many cases I'll ask Players A and B what they want to do on their turn, but remind them they know nothing of any fight about to break out, so they can only do non-combat things.
Ambusher A is the first to take a combat related turn, then intitiative continues as normal with each person taking their turn on their initiative count (Ambusher A, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc.). Players A and B will take their first combat turn, at the top of round 2.
Example 2: Let's say Player C (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush, but their initiative roll is less than the ambushers. We proceed just as described above. Ambusher A goes first, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, but were too slow to react to go first.
Example 3: Let's say Player B (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush. Since they noticed it, and beat the ambusher on initiative, they go first. Round starts with Player B, then Ambusher A, Ambusher B, Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, and were fast enough to go first.
If the DM rules there's no way for the PCs to spot the ambush before it happens, then that first round starts on the ambusher's turn.
Surprise rules are probably impossible to get right in all situations. In part because "right" is not something you can get people to agree on, and in part because, as mentioned upthread, "turn order" is a simplifying abstraction for a complex set of near-simultaneous actions.
The old way was really brutal -- a surprise round could effectively end the combat before it started, especially if the surpassing side rolled well on initiative, giving at least some of them two actions before the other side gets any.
The 24 ones are ok for a more typical ambush -- multiple opponents break cover and attack. There, it's believable that somebody who's fast and lucky might manage to get their shot in first. (Again, this requires you to acknowledge that the combatants aren't really going in turns, so the people going "before" the ambushers aren't actually acting before they know there are ambushers.)
For the truly out-of-the-blue attack, it strains verisimilitude that people would be able to act "first", so you have to do something:
The RAW answer, which sort of works with the understanding that turn order isn't real -- roll initiative, and let the chips fall where they may. The players going before the ambushers may not be able to strike back first, but they can do something, probably holding an action. This represents what they could do in the confusion of the first round.
Give the ambusher a freebie turn, then go in initiative order -- this risks the surprise round problem, but it's probably what most people do for a solo ambusher.
Roll initiative, and skip over everyone who rolled higher than the ambusher -- sort of penalizes people for rolling well, but not really. They get to act before the ambusher gets a second shot. This probably works best for an out-of-the-blue ambush with multiple attackers.
3.5 had the best surprise round rules. I can't imagine actually playing the 2024 rules. My players would hate how little versimillitude it has in 99% of surprise situations.
If the ambusher is Invisible and perceives the party, they will start combat (roll Initiative) once the party comes into range. This will give them Advantage on the Initiative roll (for the party being unawares) and give the party Disadvantage (for not being able to see them). Invisibility will drop after they make their first attack. If the party somehow wins Initiative, the ambusher will still be Invisible but the party won't be able to do much against the unseen enemy other than take an Action to Search until after the Invisible condition drops. Note that Invisible cannot ordinarily be detected by visual Search, so any Search checks would strictly be based on hearing vs. the attacker's Stealth.
If the ambusher doesn't perceive the party (such as they're creeping up on them), then the party has the opportunity to Search to find the ambusher and they can potentially turn the tables.
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative. We use beyond/VTT so I have people roll a few sets of disadvantage inits when we start for the night, and just use those for these circumstances so the ambush feels like a ambush, as you study the ancient symbols on the door, you stare in wonder at the blade that suddenly is protruding from your chest. Sam, you see an orc pulling a blade out of franks back, its your turn. instead of roll initiative folks, an ambush totally isn't happening right now.
I have been thinking of letting people who win initiative in a ambush change it to whatever init score they want. So they can go right after the ambush, maybe right after the fighter so someone will likely close allowing them to sneak attack on 1, just in case more ambushers are popping in etc.
I agree there are different ways of managing this.
I'd like to cast Mending to repair something I said. I missed part of the ability. The bonus action says:
Cloak (1/Day). The garroter magically turns invisible for 1 minute. Any equipment the garroter wears or carries is invisible with them. While invisible, the garroter’s movements make no sound. If the garroter hits a creature with an attack, casts a spell, or takes damage, the effect ends.
So, maybe, for the scenario, the Hide action could be to mask your scent or something like that, because the Garroter would already be unheard, not just unseen. Or maybe a DM could rule that the Hide action isn't necessary at all for the Garroter.
Also, if we put the Invisible condition aside (granted by the Cloak or a spell), then for case A, I'd rule that since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat only unheard but you're seeing it when combat begins, a PC winning initiative could attack the Orc right away in this case. Let's say your reflexes are good enough to anticipate the Garroter's intentions.
If the ambusher is Invisible and perceives the party, they will start combat (roll Initiative) once the party comes into range. This will give them Advantage on the Initiative roll (for the party being unawares) and give the party Disadvantage (for not being able to see them). Invisibility will drop after they make their first attack. If the party somehow wins Initiative, the ambusher will still be Invisible but the party won't be able to do much against the unseen enemy other than take an Action to Search until after the Invisible condition drops. Note that Invisible cannot ordinarily be detected by visual Search, so any Search checks would strictly be based on hearing vs. the attacker's Stealth.
If the ambusher doesn't perceive the party (such as they're creeping up on them), then the party has the opportunity to Search to find the ambusher and they can potentially turn the tables.
No. Combat doesn't start the moment they're in "range" (whatever that means), it starts when something initiates hostilities. If the invisible creature wants to sneak past the party (and is undetected, or is detected by sound but no hostile actions are taken by the party), combat never starts.
(Nor does the party get to be magically aware something is near them - they only get passive search unless otherwise actively searching for unrelated reasons).
Most combats with an invisible creature should start after the invisible creature makes the attack, because there is no perceivable hostility until that point.
I don't think Cloakand Hide should be used simultaneously but one after the other since they both grant the Invisible but the Orc Bonus Action is definitely easier to use and could perhaps be used as a way to escape, considering it's movements make no sound and doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks.
I think it's better to have an ambusher acting first in Initiative order than attack before it. Hence why i think in such case using Initiative Score can help ensure it happen.
But if a DM wish to allow attacksor spellcasting before Initiative they sure can! As long as it works for both PCs and monsters i think it's fair.
I think that something that's been tough for some D&D veterans to get used to is that under the 2024 rules there is no longer even any semblance of a "surprise round" in the surprise mechanics. In older versions there was an actual "surprise round". In the 5e 2014 rules there was a mechanic that resembled a surprise round even though the books tried to explain that it wasn't really a surprise round per se. But you still had a situation where some creatures had an ongoing "pseudo-condition" applied to them which marked them as being in a "surprised state" while combat turns were happening around them. This no longer happens in the 2024 rules.
Under the 2024 rules, the consequences of being surprised is fully resolved during the initiative rolling process. In other words, by the time the first turn of the first round of combat actually begins, no creatures are surprised. The fact that some creatures were surprised at the beginning of combat is already baked into the initiative order that has been determined. During the actual ensuing combat turns, nothing out of the ordinary is happening to any creatures.
Narratively, when a surprised creature goes first in initiative, it could mean all sorts of things. For example, maybe one creature actually did surprise another creature and for a half-second or so that other creature was caught unaware. But, for whatever reason, the first creature missed his opportunity to actually take advantage of this advantageous situation. He was too slow to recognize and then execute anything meaningful during this brief window of opportunity and by the time action begins the other creature has already fully recovered from being surprised. This is not so far-fetched as something that could happen in reality.
I have read all sorts of explanations on the updated Surprise conditions and all of that, but what is tripping me up is when Initiative rolls should actually take place in a situation like this. For instance, the Invisibility condition ends when the Orc makes an attack roll, however, if he wants to ambush and surprise the party, then Initiative is rolled with Advantage and the players with Disadvantage. It's unclear to me if this is intended to take place before any attack is actually made against the players. If so, then there's a chance that one of the players may still be able to act first in the order. And if that were to happen, the Orc would still be Invisible as they have not made an attack roll. Is that really how this is meant to play out?
Yes, this is exactly how the combat is meant to be run under the 2024 rules.
Remember, it's up to the DM and the players to craft a narrative around the results of any die roll, not the other way around. The style of storytelling that D&D is designed for is such that many attempts by a creature to do anything has a chance for success or failure and we don't know ahead of time which one it will be. The progression of the story reacts to and incorporates these random determinations into the narrative. So, the idea of a DM determining ahead of time that "this ambush is definitely happening and there is no way that it can be detected or avoided" is sort of contrary to this design. Instead, many such situations should be thought of as "will this ambush be successful? Let's find out!" Does an enemy go first in initiative? Why?? That must mean something in the story -- run with that!
I would say, make a Stealth check with Advantage for the Orc and compare it to the party's passive perception, and then roll initiative.
Remember, a Stealth check is meant to be used only when a creature is actually attempting to Hide or sneak. Just because a creature is invisible does not automatically mean that they are hiding or are making any effort at all to be stealthy. It all depends on what that creature is actually doing.
Also, although a DM can always situationally declare a check be made with Advantage, there is not any actual rules-based reason to grant Advantage on a Stealth check just because the creature is invisible. They would typically just make a standard Stealth check if they were attempting to remain quiet.
You use the PCs passive perception to see the Orc as they leave. Not sure what the DC of the invisible orc is. Maybe a stealth roll plus ???
If the PCs do not detect the Orc, then the orc rolls for hits, does damage. Now everyone rolls initiative.
Proceed as normal.
Unless the Orc has actually hidden, Stealth and Perception are not part of this process. We simply make the appropriate adjustments to the initiative rolls.
In general, hostile actions such as attacks are not resolved outside of combat. Instead, initiative is rolled first. Then, when it is that creature's turn, his hostile action is resolved at that time.
All that said, I'm more inclined to rule that the Orc does get to make his attack before Initiative is rolled and could even count that as his action for that initial round, regardless of how the order shakes out.
DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run. You had it correct in your original post.
There is one thing that I think is unclear in 24. It used to be (in 14 iirc) at the start of combat, you didn’t get a reaction until your first turn. So there was real value in going before the attacker, even if you didn’t really have anything to do with your action/BA, as you’d at least have a reaction to use during the attack.
Now, I’m not as sure if that’s the case, or if everyone gets a reaction right when initiative is rolled.
As per my above explanation, not only does everyone have access to their Reaction when combat begins, but everyone actually has totally unrestricted turns right from the beginning of combat in 2024. The consequences of being surprised only affects the initiative roll. Once the first turn of the first round of combat begins, all creatures involved in the combat are at full fighting capability -- none of them are surprised any longer by that point. The fact that they were surprised at the beginning of combat is now baked into their place in the initiative order and then turns are taken without any further indication of anyone involved in the combat being surprised.
. . . the DC 15 Stealth check is to hide, which makes you... invisible. But you're already invisible, so that does nothing. There's no point in the Orc hiding, and thus no need to make a DC15.
This happens to be true in this exact scenario because the Cloak ability causes the creature to be both unseen and unheard which is essentially the result of successfully hiding. This statement is not generally true in all situations involving invisible creatures, however. In general, an invisible creature's location can be pinpointed by hearing that creature. So, for example, that creature can be attacked at disadvantage. However, if the invisible creature successfully Hides, then it becomes both unseen and unheard. Now, to attack that creature we must "guess the square" and also the attack is made at disadvantage. So, it's a pretty big difference.
The orc needs to move silently, which has no fixed DC, it's simply compared to the party passive perception. If he beats their passive perception, they're unaware, even if he rolls 14 or less.
Actually, in this particular scenario, Passive Perception does not apply since the Orc likely is not hiding. His feature allows him to move silently as an auto-success.
However, in the general case of an invisible creature that attempts to move silently -- he must take the Hide action in order to do so. The 2024 Hide action requires a 15 or better, so it is an auto-failure if this requirement is not met. The enemy passive perception does not have to be as high as the Stealth check in that case in order for that Stealth check to fail.
. . . I'd give the Orc a 3.x surprise round (one action or move or bonus action - so his attack), and then roll initiative after the attack. Combat doesn't start until after the orc makes the attack, so initiative shouldn't be rolled until after the orc makes the attack.
DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run.
Here is an example from the DMG which highlights the general recommendation for when to call for Initiative Rolls as a DM:
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.
So, in general, a creature initiates a hostile action, then Initiative is rolled, then that hostile action is resolved on that creature's turn in combat.
Yeah TarodNet that seems to be the RAW but if the PC still wins initiative, what can they do on their turn, what do you tell them is going on. Does their turn pass because they are oblivious to what is about to occur. Do you give them some vague, you sense something but you are not sure what prompt where people know that basically means an ambush so they ready an action out of the blue, do you let them see the future, you see an orc shimmering into visibility swinging a blow at Frank.
In my opinion, you just describe the scene of the empty space that they can see as you normally would. Then, you simply say, "Roll for initiative!" Nothing more needs to be said, really. It can be assumed that fast acting characters "get the feeling that something isn't right" or whatever, but that doesn't even need to be said.
But once that is established, why should we gate-keep if a player decides that his character really would respond to this feeling by immediately casting Fireball at an empty space? Why are we considering taking away that player's agency? The dice have spoken. For some narrative reason that we should improvise, this character is first in the initiative order and that character is staring at an empty space. That character should be free to do whatever that character would do. My own feeling is that this is pretty much the perfect scenario to take the little-used Dodge action. I'm getting an uneasy feeling, so I become a bit jumpy and on high alert -- pretty much what the Dodge action is meant to simulate. But another character might similarly draw a weapon and Ready an attack in a similarly jumpy way. Maybe another character lashes out randomly with their weapon at the empty space, effectively "guessing the square". Instead of railroading the narrative, let's try to follow along with what the results of the dice are telling us and let the players have their agency.
For case A, since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat hidden, unseen, and unheard by a foe who is completely unaware, then yes, that PC can’t make an attack on the Garroter because they don't know it's there. Maybe running is a valid option? :D
By RAW, a hidden creature can be attacked at disadvantage by also successfully "guessing the square".
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative.
Yes, why are we punishing good rolls? The 2024 rules do not dictate anything resembling a Surprise Round. On the first round, every creature, regardless of their initiative, has full combat capabilities as related to the concept of surprise. By RAW, these turns are not restricted in any way.
Although players A and B rolled highest, they did not know anything was wrong, their turns are skipped this round (technically they aren't being skipped, they're just doing whatever non-combat thing they were in the process of doing since they didn't know a fight was about to start). In many cases I'll ask Players A and B what they want to do on their turn, but remind them they know nothing of any fight about to break out, so they can only do non-combat things.
Ambusher A is the first to take a combat related turn, then intitiative continues as normal with each person taking their turn on their initiative count (Ambusher A, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc.). Players A and B will take their first combat turn, at the top of round 2.
The 2024 rules have explicitly moved away from this "surprise round adjacent" mechanical concept.
Instead, the consequence of surprising an enemy only affects the initiative rolls such that you have a better chance to act before your enemy than you otherwise would have. Whether or not you manage to actually take full advantage of the situation or not is now meant to be determined by the dice gods with a possible success or failure just like a great many other activities that creatures perform in this game. This is an intentional design change from the previous 5e 2014 rules.
If the DM rules there's no way for the PCs to spot the ambush before it happens, then that first round starts on the ambusher's turn.
In the 2024 rules, this is basically impossible. There is meant to be a possibility of success or failure when surprising an enemy. This is essentially DM fiat. That can be ok of course if you really really really want a narrative to play out in a certain way and everyone at the table is on board with that, but generally in this game the dice are meant to have an impact on the details of how the narrative plays out.
Cloak (1/Day). The garroter magically turns invisible for 1 minute. Any equipment the garroter wears or carries is invisible with them. While invisible, the garroter’s movements make no sound. If the garroter hits a creature with an attack, casts a spell, or takes damage, the effect ends.
So, maybe, for the scenario, the Hide action could be to mask your scent or something like that, because the Garroter would already be unheard, not just unseen. Or maybe a DM could rule that the Hide action isn't necessary at all for the Garroter.
Yeah, in this exact scenario the orc wouldn't bother to Hide since it is mechanically unnecessary.
(Nor does the party get to be magically aware something is near them - they only get passive search unless otherwise actively searching for unrelated reasons).
Most combats with an invisible creature should start after the invisible creature makes the attack, because there is no perceivable hostility until that point.
Again, DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run. Let's not punish players for rolling well!
The main problem with 5e24's method is it is too easy to make a character that always (or almost always) wins initiative. It is easy to build a character with advantage on initiative rolls + additional bonuses to the roll besides dex modifier (or additional dice that they can add to it if they don't like how high the number already is).
If a character rolls higher than the person who is starting the ambush, and the character either has no way to detect or failed to perceive the ambush, then their actions should be non-combat actions since their character is not yet aware of the ambush. To take combat actions before they even know of the ambush would be meta-gaming. My method prevents characters from meta-gaming. Some of the players are good and would take non-combat actions on their own out of a desire to not meta-game, but there's always that 'one' that meta-games at every opportunity because they feel they always have to "win" D&D.
And no one is "punishing" someone for rolling well. People that rolled high on initiative don't "lose" an action, they simply go AFTER the person who started the fight. Let's not forget that a round is a made up construct just to help us run combat in an orderly fashion. Waiting for round 2 doesn't mean you lost an action, it just meant you take your action later. There is no ringmaster ringing a bell between rounds, and a scorekeeper that scores each round. Rounds are simply a way to keep track of who goes in what order while describing events that technically all occur simultaneously.
You roll Initiative when combat start, with Disadvantage if surprised by combat starting, at which point you should know you're being ambushed somehow.
You might not yet know by who or where exactly, but never the rules refer to the notion that you wouldn't be aware of this.
The Dungeon Master Guide also give an example of Initiative being rolled when a creature initiate combat upon casting a spell, which may not act first.
So you can definitely anticipate an ambush attack in such case.
Rolling Initiative
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can't just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
I didn't read the other posts in this thread, but this is my interpretation:
The orc Hides while invisible -> roll stealth, either use DC 15 or the player character passive perceptions to determine if the orc is successfully hidden while invisible.
A) If the orc is not hidden then roll initiative immediately still with Surprised bonuses/penalties -> essentially the PCs notice something that puts them on guard but aren't 100% sure what it is b/c the orc is invisible.
B) If the orc is hidden then it is optional to roll initiative since the PCs do not know there is a threat, however the orc can Ready an Action to attack (or do something else). When the orc's readied action is triggered initiative is rolled and the orc can use their reaction to use their readied action immediately at the start of combat. Then proceed through the initiative order as normal.
I would say, make a Stealth check with Advantage for the Orc and compare it to the party's passive perception, and then roll initiative.
Remember, a Stealth check is meant to be used only when a creature is actually attempting to Hide or sneak. Just because a creature is invisible does not automatically mean that they are hiding or are making any effort at all to be stealthy. It all depends on what that creature is actually doing.
Also, although a DM can always situationally declare a check be made with Advantage, there is not any actual rules-based reason to grant Advantage on a Stealth check just because the creature is invisible. They would typically just make a standard Stealth check if they were attempting to remain quiet.
...I'm pretty sure given the context of
I'm prepping for an upcoming session where the party is likely to encounter an enemy hiding near the entrance to their fortress. The enemy has a once per day Invisibility bonus action (Orc Garroter from Flee, Mortals), and should the party fail to spot him in hiding, he will attempt to use this ability to land a surprise attack on one of the players.
that the Orc does, in fact, intend to hide. Given the phrasing, the Orc probably even starts out hiding and intending to be stealthy. But even if they don't, and just use their cloak ability, since that lasts for one minute, and it only takes 6 seconds to make an attempt to hide, they could Cloak and Hide on their next turn and still get to the party.
The main problem with 5e24's method is it is too easy to make a character that always (or almost always) wins initiative. It is easy to build a character with advantage on initiative rolls + additional bonuses to the roll besides dex modifier (or additional dice that they can add to it if they don't like how high the number already is).
If a character rolls higher than the person who is starting the ambush, and the character either has no way to detect or failed to perceive the ambush, then their actions should be non-combat actions since their character is not yet aware of the ambush. To take combat actions before they even know of the ambush would be meta-gaming. My method prevents characters from meta-gaming. Some of the players are good and would take non-combat actions on their own out of a desire to not meta-game, but there's always that 'one' that meta-games at every opportunity because they feel they always have to "win" D&D.
And no one is "punishing" someone for rolling well. People that rolled high on initiative don't "lose" an action, they simply go AFTER the person who started the fight. Let's not forget that a round is a made up construct just to help us run combat in an orderly fashion. Waiting for round 2 doesn't mean you lost an action, it just meant you take your action later. There is no ringmaster ringing a bell between rounds, and a scorekeeper that scores each round. Rounds are simply a way to keep track of who goes in what order while describing events that technically all occur simultaneously.
This is correct. If the PC's were not able to perceive the orc who was hiding, the PC's are unaware that anything is wrong and should not be allowed to use out-of-game meta knowledge if their turn in initiative comes up before the first hostile action of combat starts. Players being told to roll initiative doesn't change anything if their PC's have no awareness of combat. For the PC's to be aware that something is wrong, that would be some kind of check, such as a perception check. Given the situation of approaching an enemy fortress, the PC's would probably roll a Perception check, but if that fails, they don't know that they've been spotted.
I think up2ng has convinced me to completely let go of the old notion of surprise rounds. I've also added it to my session 0 topics list, just in case the players want it a different way.
The TL;DR is simply that "initiative" is you ability to react to hostile situations. If you somehow have superhuman reflexes, then that will be reflected by initiative scores that are always good, and the inability to be surprised. Is that really so much of a problem?
It's probably fair to say that the designers thought the old surprise/ambushing rules were too punitive for the ambushee (I think they may have even stated this in one of their interviews in the runup to 5.24e). This certainly tones down the effectiveness and I get that some players/DMs might not like that.
It's probably fair to say that the designers thought the old surprise/ambushing rules were too punitive for the ambushee (I think they may have even stated this in one of their interviews in the runup to 5.24e). This certainly tones down the effectiveness and I get that some players/DMs might not like that.
I don't think many people have a issue with toning it down as it was too good. And thanks to poorly designed spells like pass without trace way too easy to pull off. It is the logical incongruity with people acting before they know anything is going wrong.
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Yeah TarodNet that seems to be the RAW but if the PC still wins initiative, what can they do on their turn, what do you tell them is going on. Does their turn pass because they are oblivious to what is about to occur. Do you give them some vague, you sense something but you are not sure what prompt where people know that basically means an ambush so they ready an action out of the blue, do you let them see the future, you see an orc shimmering into visibility swinging a blow at Frank.
(I added A and B to my reply for clarity)
For case A, since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat hidden, unseen, and unheard by a foe who is completely unaware, then yes, that PC can’t make an attack on the Garroter because they don't know it's there. Maybe running is a valid option? :D
This was one of my suggestion in one of the threads:
EDIT: for clarity.
it is one of the times where I don't see many satisfying answers, I do the lose the turn method but it feels bad to punish a player for rolling well in initiative. We use beyond/VTT so I have people roll a few sets of disadvantage inits when we start for the night, and just use those for these circumstances so the ambush feels like a ambush, as you study the ancient symbols on the door, you stare in wonder at the blade that suddenly is protruding from your chest. Sam, you see an orc pulling a blade out of franks back, its your turn. instead of roll initiative folks, an ambush totally isn't happening right now.
I have been thinking of letting people who win initiative in a ambush change it to whatever init score they want. So they can go right after the ambush, maybe right after the fighter so someone will likely close allowing them to sneak attack on 1, just in case more ambushers are popping in etc.
5e and 5e24 rules on surprise simply don't make sense, as such we don't use them.
What you do, is up to you, but I will tell you what I do. My extended group, having played in my previous campaign and seen it work, now do it this way as well.
First I ask for perception checks to see if anyone notices the ambush before it occurs, then I ask for Initiative to be rolled.
Let's assume the following initiative rolls
22 - Player A (who failed perception check to notice the ambush)
20 - Player B (Who likewise failed the preception check to notice the ambush)
16 - Ambusher A
14 - Ambusher B
13 - Player C (who failed the perception check to notice the ambush)
Although players A and B rolled highest, they did not know anything was wrong, their turns are skipped this round (technically they aren't being skipped, they're just doing whatever non-combat thing they were in the process of doing since they didn't know a fight was about to start). In many cases I'll ask Players A and B what they want to do on their turn, but remind them they know nothing of any fight about to break out, so they can only do non-combat things.
Ambusher A is the first to take a combat related turn, then intitiative continues as normal with each person taking their turn on their initiative count (Ambusher A, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc.). Players A and B will take their first combat turn, at the top of round 2.
Example 2: Let's say Player C (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush, but their initiative roll is less than the ambushers. We proceed just as described above. Ambusher A goes first, then Ambusher B, then Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, but were too slow to react to go first.
Example 3: Let's say Player B (with the same initiative rolls as above), succeeded and noticed the ambush. Since they noticed it, and beat the ambusher on initiative, they go first. Round starts with Player B, then Ambusher A, Ambusher B, Player C, etc. In this case, they saw it, and were fast enough to go first.
If the DM rules there's no way for the PCs to spot the ambush before it happens, then that first round starts on the ambusher's turn.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Surprise rules are probably impossible to get right in all situations. In part because "right" is not something you can get people to agree on, and in part because, as mentioned upthread, "turn order" is a simplifying abstraction for a complex set of near-simultaneous actions.
The old way was really brutal -- a surprise round could effectively end the combat before it started, especially if the surpassing side rolled well on initiative, giving at least some of them two actions before the other side gets any.
The 24 ones are ok for a more typical ambush -- multiple opponents break cover and attack. There, it's believable that somebody who's fast and lucky might manage to get their shot in first. (Again, this requires you to acknowledge that the combatants aren't really going in turns, so the people going "before" the ambushers aren't actually acting before they know there are ambushers.)
For the truly out-of-the-blue attack, it strains verisimilitude that people would be able to act "first", so you have to do something:
3.5 had the best surprise round rules. I can't imagine actually playing the 2024 rules. My players would hate how little versimillitude it has in 99% of surprise situations.
If the ambusher is Invisible and perceives the party, they will start combat (roll Initiative) once the party comes into range. This will give them Advantage on the Initiative roll (for the party being unawares) and give the party Disadvantage (for not being able to see them). Invisibility will drop after they make their first attack. If the party somehow wins Initiative, the ambusher will still be Invisible but the party won't be able to do much against the unseen enemy other than take an Action to Search until after the Invisible condition drops. Note that Invisible cannot ordinarily be detected by visual Search, so any Search checks would strictly be based on hearing vs. the attacker's Stealth.
If the ambusher doesn't perceive the party (such as they're creeping up on them), then the party has the opportunity to Search to find the ambusher and they can potentially turn the tables.
I agree there are different ways of managing this.
I'd like to cast Mending to repair something I said. I missed part of the ability. The bonus action says:
So, maybe, for the scenario, the Hide action could be to mask your scent or something like that, because the Garroter would already be unheard, not just unseen. Or maybe a DM could rule that the Hide action isn't necessary at all for the Garroter.
Also, if we put the Invisible condition aside (granted by the Cloak or a spell), then for case A, I'd rule that since the ambusher (the Garroter) starts combat only unheard but you're seeing it when combat begins, a PC winning initiative could attack the Orc right away in this case. Let's say your reflexes are good enough to anticipate the Garroter's intentions.
No. Combat doesn't start the moment they're in "range" (whatever that means), it starts when something initiates hostilities. If the invisible creature wants to sneak past the party (and is undetected, or is detected by sound but no hostile actions are taken by the party), combat never starts.
(Nor does the party get to be magically aware something is near them - they only get passive search unless otherwise actively searching for unrelated reasons).
Most combats with an invisible creature should start after the invisible creature makes the attack, because there is no perceivable hostility until that point.
I don't think Cloak and Hide should be used simultaneously but one after the other since they both grant the Invisible but the Orc Bonus Action is definitely easier to use and could perhaps be used as a way to escape, considering it's movements make no sound and doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks.
I think it's better to have an ambusher acting first in Initiative order than attack before it. Hence why i think in such case using Initiative Score can help ensure it happen.
But if a DM wish to allow attacksor spellcasting before Initiative they sure can! As long as it works for both PCs and monsters i think it's fair.
I think that something that's been tough for some D&D veterans to get used to is that under the 2024 rules there is no longer even any semblance of a "surprise round" in the surprise mechanics. In older versions there was an actual "surprise round". In the 5e 2014 rules there was a mechanic that resembled a surprise round even though the books tried to explain that it wasn't really a surprise round per se. But you still had a situation where some creatures had an ongoing "pseudo-condition" applied to them which marked them as being in a "surprised state" while combat turns were happening around them. This no longer happens in the 2024 rules.
Under the 2024 rules, the consequences of being surprised is fully resolved during the initiative rolling process. In other words, by the time the first turn of the first round of combat actually begins, no creatures are surprised. The fact that some creatures were surprised at the beginning of combat is already baked into the initiative order that has been determined. During the actual ensuing combat turns, nothing out of the ordinary is happening to any creatures.
Narratively, when a surprised creature goes first in initiative, it could mean all sorts of things. For example, maybe one creature actually did surprise another creature and for a half-second or so that other creature was caught unaware. But, for whatever reason, the first creature missed his opportunity to actually take advantage of this advantageous situation. He was too slow to recognize and then execute anything meaningful during this brief window of opportunity and by the time action begins the other creature has already fully recovered from being surprised. This is not so far-fetched as something that could happen in reality.
Yes, this is exactly how the combat is meant to be run under the 2024 rules.
Remember, it's up to the DM and the players to craft a narrative around the results of any die roll, not the other way around. The style of storytelling that D&D is designed for is such that many attempts by a creature to do anything has a chance for success or failure and we don't know ahead of time which one it will be. The progression of the story reacts to and incorporates these random determinations into the narrative. So, the idea of a DM determining ahead of time that "this ambush is definitely happening and there is no way that it can be detected or avoided" is sort of contrary to this design. Instead, many such situations should be thought of as "will this ambush be successful? Let's find out!" Does an enemy go first in initiative? Why?? That must mean something in the story -- run with that!
Remember, a Stealth check is meant to be used only when a creature is actually attempting to Hide or sneak. Just because a creature is invisible does not automatically mean that they are hiding or are making any effort at all to be stealthy. It all depends on what that creature is actually doing.
Also, although a DM can always situationally declare a check be made with Advantage, there is not any actual rules-based reason to grant Advantage on a Stealth check just because the creature is invisible. They would typically just make a standard Stealth check if they were attempting to remain quiet.
Unless the Orc has actually hidden, Stealth and Perception are not part of this process. We simply make the appropriate adjustments to the initiative rolls.
In general, hostile actions such as attacks are not resolved outside of combat. Instead, initiative is rolled first. Then, when it is that creature's turn, his hostile action is resolved at that time.
DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run. You had it correct in your original post.
As per my above explanation, not only does everyone have access to their Reaction when combat begins, but everyone actually has totally unrestricted turns right from the beginning of combat in 2024. The consequences of being surprised only affects the initiative roll. Once the first turn of the first round of combat begins, all creatures involved in the combat are at full fighting capability -- none of them are surprised any longer by that point. The fact that they were surprised at the beginning of combat is now baked into their place in the initiative order and then turns are taken without any further indication of anyone involved in the combat being surprised.
This happens to be true in this exact scenario because the Cloak ability causes the creature to be both unseen and unheard which is essentially the result of successfully hiding. This statement is not generally true in all situations involving invisible creatures, however. In general, an invisible creature's location can be pinpointed by hearing that creature. So, for example, that creature can be attacked at disadvantage. However, if the invisible creature successfully Hides, then it becomes both unseen and unheard. Now, to attack that creature we must "guess the square" and also the attack is made at disadvantage. So, it's a pretty big difference.
Actually, in this particular scenario, Passive Perception does not apply since the Orc likely is not hiding. His feature allows him to move silently as an auto-success.
However, in the general case of an invisible creature that attempts to move silently -- he must take the Hide action in order to do so. The 2024 Hide action requires a 15 or better, so it is an auto-failure if this requirement is not met. The enemy passive perception does not have to be as high as the Stealth check in that case in order for that Stealth check to fail.
DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run.
Here is an example from the DMG which highlights the general recommendation for when to call for Initiative Rolls as a DM:
So, in general, a creature initiates a hostile action, then Initiative is rolled, then that hostile action is resolved on that creature's turn in combat.
Again, DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run.
In my opinion, you just describe the scene of the empty space that they can see as you normally would. Then, you simply say, "Roll for initiative!" Nothing more needs to be said, really. It can be assumed that fast acting characters "get the feeling that something isn't right" or whatever, but that doesn't even need to be said.
But once that is established, why should we gate-keep if a player decides that his character really would respond to this feeling by immediately casting Fireball at an empty space? Why are we considering taking away that player's agency? The dice have spoken. For some narrative reason that we should improvise, this character is first in the initiative order and that character is staring at an empty space. That character should be free to do whatever that character would do. My own feeling is that this is pretty much the perfect scenario to take the little-used Dodge action. I'm getting an uneasy feeling, so I become a bit jumpy and on high alert -- pretty much what the Dodge action is meant to simulate. But another character might similarly draw a weapon and Ready an attack in a similarly jumpy way. Maybe another character lashes out randomly with their weapon at the empty space, effectively "guessing the square". Instead of railroading the narrative, let's try to follow along with what the results of the dice are telling us and let the players have their agency.
By RAW, a hidden creature can be attacked at disadvantage by also successfully "guessing the square".
Yes, why are we punishing good rolls? The 2024 rules do not dictate anything resembling a Surprise Round. On the first round, every creature, regardless of their initiative, has full combat capabilities as related to the concept of surprise. By RAW, these turns are not restricted in any way.
The 2024 rules have explicitly moved away from this "surprise round adjacent" mechanical concept.
Instead, the consequence of surprising an enemy only affects the initiative rolls such that you have a better chance to act before your enemy than you otherwise would have. Whether or not you manage to actually take full advantage of the situation or not is now meant to be determined by the dice gods with a possible success or failure just like a great many other activities that creatures perform in this game. This is an intentional design change from the previous 5e 2014 rules.
In the 2024 rules, this is basically impossible. There is meant to be a possibility of success or failure when surprising an enemy. This is essentially DM fiat. That can be ok of course if you really really really want a narrative to play out in a certain way and everyone at the table is on board with that, but generally in this game the dice are meant to have an impact on the details of how the narrative plays out.
Yeah, in this exact scenario the orc wouldn't bother to Hide since it is mechanically unnecessary.
Again, DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run. Let's not punish players for rolling well!
The main problem with 5e24's method is it is too easy to make a character that always (or almost always) wins initiative. It is easy to build a character with advantage on initiative rolls + additional bonuses to the roll besides dex modifier (or additional dice that they can add to it if they don't like how high the number already is).
If a character rolls higher than the person who is starting the ambush, and the character either has no way to detect or failed to perceive the ambush, then their actions should be non-combat actions since their character is not yet aware of the ambush. To take combat actions before they even know of the ambush would be meta-gaming. My method prevents characters from meta-gaming. Some of the players are good and would take non-combat actions on their own out of a desire to not meta-game, but there's always that 'one' that meta-games at every opportunity because they feel they always have to "win" D&D.
And no one is "punishing" someone for rolling well. People that rolled high on initiative don't "lose" an action, they simply go AFTER the person who started the fight. Let's not forget that a round is a made up construct just to help us run combat in an orderly fashion. Waiting for round 2 doesn't mean you lost an action, it just meant you take your action later. There is no ringmaster ringing a bell between rounds, and a scorekeeper that scores each round. Rounds are simply a way to keep track of who goes in what order while describing events that technically all occur simultaneously.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
You might not yet know by who or where exactly, but never the rules refer to the notion that you wouldn't be aware of this.
The Dungeon Master Guide also give an example of Initiative being rolled when a creature initiate combat upon casting a spell, which may not act first.
So you can definitely anticipate an ambush attack in such case.
I didn't read the other posts in this thread, but this is my interpretation:
The orc Hides while invisible -> roll stealth, either use DC 15 or the player character passive perceptions to determine if the orc is successfully hidden while invisible.
A) If the orc is not hidden then roll initiative immediately still with Surprised bonuses/penalties -> essentially the PCs notice something that puts them on guard but aren't 100% sure what it is b/c the orc is invisible.
B) If the orc is hidden then it is optional to roll initiative since the PCs do not know there is a threat, however the orc can Ready an Action to attack (or do something else). When the orc's readied action is triggered initiative is rolled and the orc can use their reaction to use their readied action immediately at the start of combat. Then proceed through the initiative order as normal.
...I'm pretty sure given the context of
that the Orc does, in fact, intend to hide. Given the phrasing, the Orc probably even starts out hiding and intending to be stealthy. But even if they don't, and just use their cloak ability, since that lasts for one minute, and it only takes 6 seconds to make an attempt to hide, they could Cloak and Hide on their next turn and still get to the party.
This is correct. If the PC's were not able to perceive the orc who was hiding, the PC's are unaware that anything is wrong and should not be allowed to use out-of-game meta knowledge if their turn in initiative comes up before the first hostile action of combat starts. Players being told to roll initiative doesn't change anything if their PC's have no awareness of combat. For the PC's to be aware that something is wrong, that would be some kind of check, such as a perception check. Given the situation of approaching an enemy fortress, the PC's would probably roll a Perception check, but if that fails, they don't know that they've been spotted.
I think up2ng has convinced me to completely let go of the old notion of surprise rounds. I've also added it to my session 0 topics list, just in case the players want it a different way.
The TL;DR is simply that "initiative" is you ability to react to hostile situations. If you somehow have superhuman reflexes, then that will be reflected by initiative scores that are always good, and the inability to be surprised. Is that really so much of a problem?
A hidden enemy attacking before Initiative isn't Invisible anymore to roll it with Advantage.
The benefit of ambushing is Advantage to Initiative, not free attack.
The drawback of being surprised is Disadvantage to Initiative, not the incapacity to take some actions.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
It's probably fair to say that the designers thought the old surprise/ambushing rules were too punitive for the ambushee (I think they may have even stated this in one of their interviews in the runup to 5.24e). This certainly tones down the effectiveness and I get that some players/DMs might not like that.
I don't think many people have a issue with toning it down as it was too good. And thanks to poorly designed spells like pass without trace way too easy to pull off. It is the logical incongruity with people acting before they know anything is going wrong.