Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you gain +99 bonus on the roll.
That's easier than adding +5 to the roll? The concept is just that you get the jump on the unsuspecting creatures. They aren't treated like they are paralyzed or stunned.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you gain +99 bonus on the roll.
That's easier than adding +5 to the roll? The concept is just that you get the jump on the unsuspecting creatures. They aren't treated like they are paralyzed or stunned.
A bonus is a bonus wether you add +5 or +99 to a roll. But the latter ensure the ambusher goes first and thus avoid all concerns raised in this thread.
It's probably fair to say that the designers thought the old surprise/ambushing rules were too punitive for the ambushee (I think they may have even stated this in one of their interviews in the runup to 5.24e). This certainly tones down the effectiveness and I get that some players/DMs might not like that.
I don't think many people have a issue with toning it down as it was too good. And thanks to poorly designed spells like pass without trace way too easy to pull off. It is the logical incongruity with people acting before they know anything is going wrong.
That only happens if you think of each turn as a different set of 6 seconds. But that's not the abstraction. The abstraction is that the whole round happens in the same 6 seconds. Creatures with high initiative simply act split seconds before others (which is why you can kill something before it gets a turn). In the very example in the DMG, you would logically think that the spell should go off without a hitch since the players didn't "know" the spell was supposed to go off before the caster chose that action, but it very clearly gives both the mechanics and the reason for the ability to counterspell it before it actually goes off. The only difference is that the cues for something unseen and unheard wanting to attack aren't so blatant.
It's all in the narration. If you want them to know that something is actually attacking them and give the high rollers a chance to react before that happens then you describe the shift of air, the heat off the body, the footprints in the snow.
If you don't, then you don't describe anything and it's the players' job to decide on an appropriate course of action with the lack of knowledge of why they are in an initiative situation. Dodge, Ready, and blowing up the room with a fireball due to prickles on the back of their neck are valid responses. I'm not sure I see a problem with any of those.
Note that you cannot "attack before Initiative". Once anyone declares an attack, you have to roll Initiative. Even if you're the one declaring the attack that triggers Initiative, you may not get your attack off before your target's action.
Moreover, if you are Invisible, that condition will not drop until after you've actually attacked. So let's say you're Invisible and declare you're attacking. If you win Initiative, you go ahead and attack, then lose Invisible. If you lose Initiative, your opponents can act first but you're still Invisible (since you haven't attacked yet).
. . . the DC 15 Stealth check is to hide, which makes you... invisible. But you're already invisible, so that does nothing. There's no point in the Orc hiding, and thus no need to make a DC15.
This happens to be true in this exact scenario because the Cloak ability causes the creature to be both unseen and unheard which is essentially the result of successfully hiding. This statement is not generally true in all situations involving invisible creatures, however. In general, an invisible creature's location can be pinpointed by hearing that creature. So, for example, that creature can be attacked at disadvantage. However, if the invisible creature successfully Hides, then it becomes both unseen and unheard. Now, to attack that creature we must "guess the square" and also the attack is made at disadvantage. So, it's a pretty big difference.
The orc needs to move silently, which has no fixed DC, it's simply compared to the party passive perception. If he beats their passive perception, they're unaware, even if he rolls 14 or less.
Actually, in this particular scenario, Passive Perception does not apply since the Orc likely is not hiding. His feature allows him to move silently as an auto-success.
However, in the general case of an invisible creature that attempts to move silently -- he must take the Hide action in order to do so. The 2024 Hide action requires a 15 or better, so it is an auto-failure if this requirement is not met. The enemy passive perception does not have to be as high as the Stealth check in that case in order for that Stealth check to fail.
This is wrong. The DC 15 check is specifically to take the 'Hide' action, that is, to gain the invisible condition. The 'Hide' action specifically has to do with whether they can see you, and makes you invisible if you succeed. (Generally, you also use your Hide result for your move silently result, because less dice, although you could justify separate checks).
Hide action: "With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
Note that it implies you're also moving silently, but the only thing passing the DC15 explicitly does is make you invisible. If you're already invisible, you don't need to make yourself invisible.
Not all stealth checks are hide checks. If you're just moving silently, it's just a straight opposed check. There's no minimum DC to move silently in the rules. And you don't have to be unseen to successfully move silently.
A Hide action is a special stealth check that makes you invisible (and also, by implication, doubles as your move silently check). But you can use Stealth to do things besides Hide, one of which is explicitly move silently (Stealth skill description lists moving silently and hiding behind things, so moving silently is in some ways separate from hiding). Moving silently is not even an action (once you start moving silently, you continue until you stop or are heard, and likely make the check when you first do something which causes movement that you're trying to be silent about), and on its own it's just a standard skill check using the stealth skill.
. . . I'd give the Orc a 3.x surprise round (one action or move or bonus action - so his attack), and then roll initiative after the attack. Combat doesn't start until after the orc makes the attack, so initiative shouldn't be rolled until after the orc makes the attack.
DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run.
(Nor does the party get to be magically aware something is near them - they only get passive search unless otherwise actively searching for unrelated reasons).
Most combats with an invisible creature should start after the invisible creature makes the attack, because there is no perceivable hostility until that point.
Again, DMs do often run it this way or in some similar way, but that is not how the RAW dictates that it should be run. Let's not punish players for rolling well!
SRD 5.2.1: Initiative: "When combat starts, every participant rolls initiative;..."
When does combat start with an invisible (and unperceived) attacker? When the creature attacks. Not before it attacks. The attack is the moment when the victims realize they are in combat. Which means combat doesn't start until after the attack resolves if they couldn't see the attack coming.
(If you're surprised solely because someone you can see suddenly draws a sword and you think they mean to attack, then you roll initiative right after they draw their sword, before they attack, because you know you're in combat. But if an invisible assassin sneaks up and stabs you in the back, the dagger puncturing your lung is your first indication that you're in combat, so you don't roll initiative until after that happens. And indeed, if the invisible assassin stabs the last person in a line, and manages to kill them imperceptibly, combat still hasn't started, because none of the other persons know they're in combat, and the victim is dead and thus not in combat.)
If you don't know you're about to be attacked, you're not in combat yet. Full stop.
RAW, initiative is only rolled when combat starts, and combat only starts when both sides are aware they're fighting. It makes zero sense to have someone roll initiative and go first while completely unaware there's anything going on, because combat has not started for them. (And no, rolling high on initiative doesn't give you magical awareness you're in combat - that's what perception is for. No double-dipping. You had your chance).
I'm also confused by your 'don't punish the players' line. I agree, don't punish the players when they set up an ambush, either. I find it's the player's sneaking around and surprising the enemies at least as often as its the monsters. (And indeed, a would-be ambush can be surprised if the other side spot the ambush and suddenly attack them before they initiate their ambush, something the players are far more likely to accomplish than any monster).
What I do for surprise currently is: in a potential surprise situation
Those who can achieve surprise roll stealth instead of initiative (which means ambushes in heavy armor don't work very well, but...).
Those who can be surprised have their initiative capped at passive perception. This is replaced by insight if the potentially surprised character knows about the combat initiator but does not know that they're going to attack (this can include fellow PCs; if one PC decides to attack out of the blue, they surprise everyone, not just their enemies).
This effectively means the roll to sneak up on someone and the initiative roll are merged, and easily explains how you can launch an attack and not go first: your opponents saw you coming.
. . . the orc can Ready an Action to attack (or do something else). When the orc's readied action is triggered initiative is rolled and the orc can use their reaction to use their readied action immediately at the start of combat. Then proceed through the initiative order as normal.
This is another case where I understand that the game is commonly played this way with regard to Readied actions, but this is a slippery slope, and it should not be allowed.
The Ready action simply should not be allowed to be taken outside of combat.
What this eventually deteriorates into is this: A player at the table rallies everyone else to declare that every character in the party is "always" readying an attack as soon as they see an enemy. No matter what they are doing or what else is happening in the adventure, the characters are Readying an attack at every waking moment of every single day, all day long. Thus, whenever a combat encounter eventually breaks out, the entire party gets a "free round" of attacks at the very beginning of combat and then they can attack again as their action during the first round of combat. The game is not designed to be played that way.
I have also seen groups similarly declare things like: "My character is "always" searching for traps". Or "my character is "always" stealthy". Or "my character is "always" taking the Dodge action." There is rules support for disallowing all of these things, but it can be a headache to deal with.
If a DM is interested in the rules support for shutting down Readied actions outside of combat, we can begin by looking at the text for the Ready action:
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
The concept of "your turn" is really a combat-only concept in the 2024 rules. Outside of combat, the game flows differently. Plenty of other actions can be taken outside of combat such as Search or Hide or Help or Influence or Utilize and so on as the text for those actions doesn't mention performing such activities on your turn.
Outside of combat:
. . . the game unfolds according to this basic pattern:
The Dungeon Master Describes a Scene.
The Players Describe What Their Characters Do. . . . Outside combat, the DM ensures that every character has a chance to act and decides how to resolve their activity. In combat, the characters take turns.
The DM Narrates the Results of the Adventurers’ Actions.
In certain situations—particularly combat—the action is more structured, and everyone takes turns.
Combat:
The game organizes combat into a cycle of rounds and turns.
. . .
Each participant in the battle takes a turn in Initiative order. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat this step until the fighting stops.
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
The main actions you can take are listed in “Actions” earlier in this chapter. A character’s features and a monster’s stat block also provide action options.
I understand that disallowing actions such as Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge and Ready outside of combat with the intention of that action "carrying over into combat for free" might be a hard sell for many veteran players, but doing so is more in line with the RAW.
The DC 15 check is specifically to take the 'Hide' action, that is, to gain the invisible condition. The 'Hide' action specifically has to do with whether they can see you, and makes you invisible if you succeed. (Generally, you also use your Hide result for your move silently result, because less dice, although you could justify separate checks).
. . .
Note that it implies you're also moving silently, but the only thing passing the DC15 explicitly does is make you invisible. If you're already invisible, you don't need to make yourself invisible.
Incorrect.
The DC 15 requirement is how you adjudicate whether or not you have successfully concealed yourself. In this context, this means that you have successfully become both unseen and unheard. Being unseen is a prerequisite for even making this attempt in the first place. When successful, it means that you have successfully concealed yourself and have become "hidden". While hidden, you have all of the benefits of being hidden -- most of which are detailed elsewhere, not within the text for the Hide action (see Unseen Attackers and Targets for what it means to be hidden mechanically in addition to what is explicitly listed within the Hide action). In addition, you also have the Invisible condition (explicitly declared within the text for the Hide action) while hidden.
Not all stealth checks are hide checks. If you're just moving silently, it's just a straight opposed check. There's no minimum DC to move silently in the rules. And you don't have to be unseen to successfully move silently.
Contested checks aren't really a thing in the 2024 rules.
Mechanically, there is no point to moving silently if an enemy is watching you do so. You don't gain any benefits for doing this.
it's true that the Stealth skill can be used for activities other than Hiding. Particularly, if you are attempting to perform a quick, discreet activity in a quiet manner that is not ongoing then the DM might call for a simple Stealth check with a set DC if there is some meaningful chance for success and failure. For example, trying to open or close a door that is out of the enemy line of sight in a quiet manner so that the noise of doing so does not alert that enemy -- the DM might call for a Stealth check and might set the DC equal to that enemy's Passive Perception score.
However, if by "moving silently" you mean sneaking around on an ongoing basis without being seen or heard, then you really have to use the Hide action mechanics for that. In that case, the minimum Stealth value is 15 and you must also beat the Passive Perception score of any nearby enemy when you make the attempt. Once you are hidden, that sets the DC that an enemy must meet or exceed with any Passive or Active Perception check that searches for you.
A Hide action is a special stealth check that makes you invisible.
No, the Hide action doesn't actually make you invisible. And no, having the Invisible condition is not the only result of successfully hiding.
Rather than actually making you invisible, the Hide action just says that you have the Invisible Condition while hidden. It's basically just saying that you have the same benefits as being invisible by virtue of the fact that you are currently unseen.
When does combat start with an invisible (and unperceived) attacker? When the creature attacks. Not before it attacks. The attack is the moment when the victims realize they are in combat. Which means combat doesn't start until after the attack resolves if they couldn't see the attack coming.
(If you're surprised solely because someone you can see suddenly draws a sword and you think they mean to attack, then you roll initiative right after they draw their sword, before they attack, because you know you're in combat. But if an invisible assassin sneaks up and stabs you in the back, the dagger puncturing your lung is your first indication that you're in combat, so you don't roll initiative until after that happens. And indeed, if the invisible assassin stabs the last person in a line, and manages to kill them imperceptibly, combat still hasn't started, because none of the other persons know they're in combat, and the victim is dead and thus not in combat.)
If you don't know you're about to be attacked, you're not in combat yet. Full stop.
RAW, initiative is only rolled when combat starts, and combat only starts when both sides are aware they're fighting. It makes zero sense to have someone roll initiative and go first while completely unaware there's anything going on, because combat has not started for them. (And no, rolling high on initiative doesn't give you magical awareness you're in combat - that's what perception is for. No double-dipping. You had your chance).
All of this is totally incorrect according to the RAW of the 2024 rules. It is also incorrect with respect to the 2014 rules. In both cases, all fighting happens within initiative according to the rules. Attacks are not resolved outside of combat.
In the 2024 rules, an invisible assassin might think that he is successfully sneaking up on you and then also successfully attacking you from behind (two separate things) in some sort of unstoppable or unavoidable way, but according to the 2024 rules, something might go wrong. The assassin might fumble the sword a bit or make a bit of noise while drawing that sword as part of the attack (not as part of the sneaking, but as part of the attack). He might hesitate just a fraction too long and the enemy might recover exceptionally quickly from being surprised. In 2024, such unforeseen circumstances are up to the dice to determine.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
A combatant that is surprised that combat has started IS in combat. They just didn't know that combat was starting when it actually started and so they are surprised by that for a very brief period of time. In 2024, this period of time that this surprised combatant is surprised for actually lasts for far less than one full combat round. There is a mechanic in place in the rules which adjusts for this momentary realization that combat has already begun. This combatant was unaware that combat is starting at the moment that it started. The rules regarding the initiative adjustment are the only mechanical ramification of that happening according to the 2024 RAW. On the rare occasion that the surprised opponent acts first, the abstraction is that all of this is happening at nearly the same time and the surprised opponent was simply faster. This is how it works. Ruling it another way is a homebrew house rule. Which is fine, but that's what it is.
The fact that we're already up to 3 pages of argument over this topic just shows how truly horrible the current RAW method is. I'll stick with the method I posted. My dozen or so players (including 3 other DMs) have found it works well and is a good balance between efficiency, fairness, and realism.
You are of course free to use whatever system you prefer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
All right, some more of my thoughts on how to run this.
1. The Orc has been described as hiding near the fortress entrance. It seems as though they are acting as a sentry attempting to watch the entrance from concealment. Well before the PC's arrive, the Orc takes the Hide action and rolls a Stealth check. Optionally consider granting the Orc advantage, due to the long amount of time they have to prepare. If the Orc fails to beat a 15, they have failed to hide well enough to avoid detection, even if the PC's don't have a high enough perception (either active or passive). The DM could handle that in a couple of ways, such as giving a hint to the PC's that something seems off, or outright saying that a sentry was spotted.
2. If the Orc succeeds on the basic 15, they are considered Hidden and Invisible until the PC's arrive. If one of the PC's has a passive perception which beats the Orc's Stealth, the Orc is spotted by that PC. If the PC's choose to make an active Perception check when approaching the fortress (and they'd be stupid not to), they spot the orc if their active Perception check beat his Stealth score.
3. If the PC's are moving stealthily, roll an active Perception check for the Orc (as a sentry, he would always be watching). If the PC's don't spot the Orc, but aren't moving stealthily or fail to beat the Orc's Perception check, the Orc uses Cloak to obscure their footsteps. There is no need to roll an additional Stealth check, as Cloak makes the orc actually transparent with silent footsteps. The DM picks their target and rolls an attack with advantage due to Invisible, then they ask the chosen PC if an X hits. If it hits, roll damage, but either way, at that point, roll initiative.
I a throw another alternative that is "technically" still RAW, but more loose in order of operations.
Only have combatants involved in the "surprise" phase to roll initiative. Basically first attacker and first target. Adv/Dis applies as normal. Then after that round is resolved, the other combatants roll initiative enter combat. This basically allows an opening event to happen, which is easier to narrate, and less likely to snow ball due to no sides getting free attacks.
And as a bonus, those with things like an Alert Feat, Holding a Weapon of Warning (but not the rest of the party), or actively watching for ambushes as an out of combat activity, get to also be in that first round of initiative rolls. Letting them reposition, spot targets, retaliate/first strike, before the bulk of the enemy get to act.
Its easy, its punchy, and its very fast to enact to get the excitement of a surprise round without most of the mechanical baggage a full surprise round causes.
The DC 15 check is specifically to take the 'Hide' action, that is, to gain the invisible condition. The 'Hide' action specifically has to do with whether they can see you, and makes you invisible if you succeed. (Generally, you also use your Hide result for your move silently result, because less dice, although you could justify separate checks).
. . .
Note that it implies you're also moving silently, but the only thing passing the DC15 explicitly does is make you invisible. If you're already invisible, you don't need to make yourself invisible.
Incorrect.
The DC 15 requirement is how you adjudicate whether or not you have successfully concealed yourself. In this context, this means that you have successfully become both unseen and unheard. Being unseen is a prerequisite for even making this attempt in the first place. When successful, it means that you have successfully concealed yourself and have become "hidden". While hidden, you have all of the benefits of being hidden -- most of which are detailed elsewhere, not within the text for the Hide action (see Unseen Attackers and Targets for what it means to be hidden mechanically in addition to what is explicitly listed within the Hide action). In addition, you also have the Invisible condition (explicitly declared within the text for the Hide action) while hidden.
Not all stealth checks are hide checks. If you're just moving silently, it's just a straight opposed check. There's no minimum DC to move silently in the rules. And you don't have to be unseen to successfully move silently.
Contested checks aren't really a thing in the 2024 rules.
Mechanically, there is no point to moving silently if an enemy is watching you do so. You don't gain any benefits for doing this.
it's true that the Stealth skill can be used for activities other than Hiding. Particularly, if you are attempting to perform a quick, discreet activity in a quiet manner that is not ongoing then the DM might call for a simple Stealth check with a set DC if there is some meaningful chance for success and failure. For example, trying to open or close a door that is out of the enemy line of sight in a quiet manner so that the noise of doing so does not alert that enemy -- the DM might call for a Stealth check and might set the DC equal to that enemy's Passive Perception score.
However, if by "moving silently" you mean sneaking around on an ongoing basis without being seen or heard, then you really have to use the Hide action mechanics for that. In that case, the minimum Stealth value is 15 and you must also beat the Passive Perception score of any nearby enemy when you make the attempt. Once you are hidden, that sets the DC that an enemy must meet or exceed with any Passive or Active Perception check that searches for you.
A Hide action is a special stealth check that makes you invisible.
No, the Hide action doesn't actually make you invisible. And no, having the Invisible condition is not the only result of successfully hiding.
Rather than actually making you invisible, the Hide action just says that you have the Invisible Condition while hidden. It's basically just saying that you have the same benefits as being invisible by virtue of the fact that you are currently unseen.
When does combat start with an invisible (and unperceived) attacker? When the creature attacks. Not before it attacks. The attack is the moment when the victims realize they are in combat. Which means combat doesn't start until after the attack resolves if they couldn't see the attack coming.
(If you're surprised solely because someone you can see suddenly draws a sword and you think they mean to attack, then you roll initiative right after they draw their sword, before they attack, because you know you're in combat. But if an invisible assassin sneaks up and stabs you in the back, the dagger puncturing your lung is your first indication that you're in combat, so you don't roll initiative until after that happens. And indeed, if the invisible assassin stabs the last person in a line, and manages to kill them imperceptibly, combat still hasn't started, because none of the other persons know they're in combat, and the victim is dead and thus not in combat.)
If you don't know you're about to be attacked, you're not in combat yet. Full stop.
RAW, initiative is only rolled when combat starts, and combat only starts when both sides are aware they're fighting. It makes zero sense to have someone roll initiative and go first while completely unaware there's anything going on, because combat has not started for them. (And no, rolling high on initiative doesn't give you magical awareness you're in combat - that's what perception is for. No double-dipping. You had your chance).
All of this is totally incorrect according to the RAW of the 2024 rules. It is also incorrect with respect to the 2014 rules. In both cases, all fighting happens within initiative according to the rules. Attacks are not resolved outside of combat.
In the 2024 rules, an invisible assassin might think that he is successfully sneaking up on you and then also successfully attacking you from behind (two separate things) in some sort of unstoppable or unavoidable way, but according to the 2024 rules, something might go wrong. The assassin might fumble the sword a bit or make a bit of noise while drawing that sword as part of the attack (not as part of the sneaking, but as part of the attack). He might hesitate just a fraction too long and the enemy might recover exceptionally quickly from being surprised. In 2024, such unforeseen circumstances are up to the dice to determine.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
A combatant that is surprised that combat has started IS in combat. They just didn't know that combat was starting when it actually started and so they are surprised by that for a very brief period of time. In 2024, this period of time that this surprised combatant is surprised for actually lasts for far less than one full combat round. There is a mechanic in place in the rules which adjusts for this momentary realization that combat has already begun. This combatant was unaware that combat is starting at the moment that it started. The rules regarding the initiative adjustment are the only mechanical ramification of that happening according to the 2024 RAW. On the rare occasion that the surprised opponent acts first, the abstraction is that all of this is happening at nearly the same time and the surprised opponent was simply faster. This is how it works. Ruling it another way is a homebrew house rule. Which is fine, but that's what it is.
I would like you to quote rules to prove any of that. Most especially about the Hide action.
(Because the rules only give the DC 15 for the Hide action, which makes you invisible. I quoted the rule. And the rules say initiative is rolled when combat starts, which must necessarily mean that at the point initiative is rolled, everyone knows there's about to be fighting, or by definition combat hasn't started yet. To be surprised by combat starting in the case of the undetected invisible assassin is to be surprised by the knife already in your back, and only at that point does combat start).
(There's also no difference between being invisible and the invisible condition. The only difference RAW between invisible from the spell Invisibility and the Hide action is the conditions for losing invisibility.)
(Edit: There most definitely are opposed rolls. The Hide action specifically tells you to make note of your stealth roll and compare the detecting characters perception to that roll. That's an opposed roll.)
(Edit 2: There is a point to a move silently roll when observed, because not everyone can observe you. Let's say you're attempting to seduce a guard, and are being quiet to avoid alerting another guard who is on the other side of a wall/curtain/whatever but within earshot. You don't care that the guard you're attempting to seduce can see you, but he can see you, so you can't hide. But you definitely do care that you're moving silently while doing so.)
. . . the orc can Ready an Action to attack (or do something else). When the orc's readied action is triggered initiative is rolled and the orc can use their reaction to use their readied action immediately at the start of combat. Then proceed through the initiative order as normal.
This is another case where I understand that the game is commonly played this way with regard to Readied actions, but this is a slippery slope, and it should not be allowed.
The Ready action simply should not be allowed to be taken outside of combat.
What this eventually deteriorates into is this: A player at the table rallies everyone else to declare that every character in the party is "always" readying an attack as soon as they see an enemy. No matter what they are doing or what else is happening in the adventure, the characters are Readying an attack at every waking moment of every single day, all day long. Thus, whenever a combat encounter eventually breaks out, the entire party gets a "free round" of attacks at the very beginning of combat and then they can attack again as their action during the first round of combat. The game is not designed to be played that way.
I have also seen groups similarly declare things like: "My character is "always" searching for traps". Or "my character is "always" stealthy". Or "my character is "always" taking the Dodge action." There is rules support for disallowing all of these things, but it can be a headache to deal with.
If a DM is interested in the rules support for shutting down Readied actions outside of combat, we can begin by looking at the text for the Ready action:
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
The concept of "your turn" is really a combat-only concept in the 2024 rules. Outside of combat, the game flows differently. Plenty of other actions can be taken outside of combat such as Search or Hide or Help or Influence or Utilize and so on as the text for those actions doesn't mention performing such activities on your turn.
Outside of combat:
. . . the game unfolds according to this basic pattern:
The Dungeon Master Describes a Scene.
The Players Describe What Their Characters Do. . . . Outside combat, the DM ensures that every character has a chance to act and decides how to resolve their activity. In combat, the characters take turns.
The DM Narrates the Results of the Adventurers’ Actions.
In certain situations—particularly combat—the action is more structured, and everyone takes turns.
Combat:
The game organizes combat into a cycle of rounds and turns.
. . .
Each participant in the battle takes a turn in Initiative order. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat this step until the fighting stops.
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
The main actions you can take are listed in “Actions” earlier in this chapter. A character’s features and a monster’s stat block also provide action options.
I understand that disallowing actions such as Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge and Ready outside of combat with the intention of that action "carrying over into combat for free" might be a hard sell for many veteran players, but doing so is more in line with the RAW.
You can most certainly take attack actions outside combat. Let's say I'm target shooting, maybe even in an archery competition, maybe just out in the woods with a target. It's not combat, pretty definitionally. But that's definitely an attack.
Now let's say I'm clay shooting (and this world has shotguns). Definitely not combat. But can I take a readied action to shoot the pigeon after it's launched? Of course I can. This is exactly the mechanic to describe these activities.
It's patently untrue you can't take these actions outside of combat.
(And on the converse, you could divide the entire day into rounds and just take turns saying what you're doing for every 6s. The problem is this is just tedious, so we abstract it. But combat isn't magically different from any other time, with different physics. The reason we only keep track in actual combat is because initiative and action sequencing generally only matters in actual combat).
And the rules say initiative is rolled when combat starts, which must necessarily mean that at the point initiative is rolled, everyone knows there's about to be fighting, or by definition combat hasn't started yet.
The players know that combat has started. The characters do not have to.
Also, many groups will drop into initiative when there's a situation where tactical positioning and order of actions may matter, even if combat has not, as such, occurred. For instance, if the party is moving at speed through a heavily trapped area, initiative might be in order so you can determine who sets off traps, and who gets affected. Or if there's a tense situation with NPCs going on, and people are maneuvering in case the fight does break out. (Is it RAW? Don't know, don't care. It's practical.)
And the rules say initiative is rolled when combat starts, which must necessarily mean that at the point initiative is rolled, everyone knows there's about to be fighting, or by definition combat hasn't started yet.
The players know that combat has started. The characters do not have to.
Also, many groups will drop into initiative when there's a situation where tactical positioning and order of actions may matter, even if combat has not, as such, occurred. For instance, if the party is moving at speed through a heavily trapped area, initiative might be in order so you can determine who sets off traps, and who gets affected. Or if there's a tense situation with NPCs going on, and people are maneuvering in case the fight does break out. (Is it RAW? Don't know, don't care. It's practical.)
I have no problem with that latter practice. They're doing stuff. (It's still not combat, which matters for some things). But now imagine you've gone to initiative order because of traps, and an enemy springs an ambush while that's going on. The players didn't get any magical knowledge combat was about to happen, they're maneuvering through traps. So the ambush catches them by surprise without any chance to react to the ambushing monsters' attacks before they make them (since they had no idea the enemy was there to take action against), which is much more like my idea of how combat starts than the alternative.
Combat only starts when the characters know combat has started (and enemies, in the case of a player ambush). And the players shouldn't know until then, either. Which is why you only roll initiative after the initial attack (or whatever) of the unseen enemy, so the players don't know combat is about to start.
Wouldn't have just been easier to say; 😉
That's easier than adding +5 to the roll? The concept is just that you get the jump on the unsuspecting creatures. They aren't treated like they are paralyzed or stunned.
A bonus is a bonus wether you add +5 or +99 to a roll. But the latter ensure the ambusher goes first and thus avoid all concerns raised in this thread.
That only happens if you think of each turn as a different set of 6 seconds. But that's not the abstraction. The abstraction is that the whole round happens in the same 6 seconds. Creatures with high initiative simply act split seconds before others (which is why you can kill something before it gets a turn). In the very example in the DMG, you would logically think that the spell should go off without a hitch since the players didn't "know" the spell was supposed to go off before the caster chose that action, but it very clearly gives both the mechanics and the reason for the ability to counterspell it before it actually goes off. The only difference is that the cues for something unseen and unheard wanting to attack aren't so blatant.
It's all in the narration. If you want them to know that something is actually attacking them and give the high rollers a chance to react before that happens then you describe the shift of air, the heat off the body, the footprints in the snow.
If you don't, then you don't describe anything and it's the players' job to decide on an appropriate course of action with the lack of knowledge of why they are in an initiative situation. Dodge, Ready, and blowing up the room with a fireball due to prickles on the back of their neck are valid responses. I'm not sure I see a problem with any of those.
Note that you cannot "attack before Initiative". Once anyone declares an attack, you have to roll Initiative. Even if you're the one declaring the attack that triggers Initiative, you may not get your attack off before your target's action.
Moreover, if you are Invisible, that condition will not drop until after you've actually attacked. So let's say you're Invisible and declare you're attacking. If you win Initiative, you go ahead and attack, then lose Invisible. If you lose Initiative, your opponents can act first but you're still Invisible (since you haven't attacked yet).
This is wrong. The DC 15 check is specifically to take the 'Hide' action, that is, to gain the invisible condition. The 'Hide' action specifically has to do with whether they can see you, and makes you invisible if you succeed. (Generally, you also use your Hide result for your move silently result, because less dice, although you could justify separate checks).
Hide action: "With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
Note that it implies you're also moving silently, but the only thing passing the DC15 explicitly does is make you invisible. If you're already invisible, you don't need to make yourself invisible.
Not all stealth checks are hide checks. If you're just moving silently, it's just a straight opposed check. There's no minimum DC to move silently in the rules. And you don't have to be unseen to successfully move silently.
A Hide action is a special stealth check that makes you invisible (and also, by implication, doubles as your move silently check). But you can use Stealth to do things besides Hide, one of which is explicitly move silently (Stealth skill description lists moving silently and hiding behind things, so moving silently is in some ways separate from hiding). Moving silently is not even an action (once you start moving silently, you continue until you stop or are heard, and likely make the check when you first do something which causes movement that you're trying to be silent about), and on its own it's just a standard skill check using the stealth skill.
SRD 5.2.1: Initiative: "When combat starts, every participant rolls initiative;..."
When does combat start with an invisible (and unperceived) attacker? When the creature attacks. Not before it attacks. The attack is the moment when the victims realize they are in combat. Which means combat doesn't start until after the attack resolves if they couldn't see the attack coming.
(If you're surprised solely because someone you can see suddenly draws a sword and you think they mean to attack, then you roll initiative right after they draw their sword, before they attack, because you know you're in combat. But if an invisible assassin sneaks up and stabs you in the back, the dagger puncturing your lung is your first indication that you're in combat, so you don't roll initiative until after that happens. And indeed, if the invisible assassin stabs the last person in a line, and manages to kill them imperceptibly, combat still hasn't started, because none of the other persons know they're in combat, and the victim is dead and thus not in combat.)
If you don't know you're about to be attacked, you're not in combat yet. Full stop.
RAW, initiative is only rolled when combat starts, and combat only starts when both sides are aware they're fighting. It makes zero sense to have someone roll initiative and go first while completely unaware there's anything going on, because combat has not started for them. (And no, rolling high on initiative doesn't give you magical awareness you're in combat - that's what perception is for. No double-dipping. You had your chance).
I'm also confused by your 'don't punish the players' line. I agree, don't punish the players when they set up an ambush, either. I find it's the player's sneaking around and surprising the enemies at least as often as its the monsters. (And indeed, a would-be ambush can be surprised if the other side spot the ambush and suddenly attack them before they initiate their ambush, something the players are far more likely to accomplish than any monster).
For curiosity sake, What is the DC to detect the invisible orc?
What is the DC to detect the orc if it Hides?
What if he fails to Hide or chooses not to Hide?
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What I do for surprise currently is: in a potential surprise situation
This effectively means the roll to sneak up on someone and the initiative roll are merged, and easily explains how you can launch an attack and not go first: your opponents saw you coming.
This is another case where I understand that the game is commonly played this way with regard to Readied actions, but this is a slippery slope, and it should not be allowed.
The Ready action simply should not be allowed to be taken outside of combat.
What this eventually deteriorates into is this: A player at the table rallies everyone else to declare that every character in the party is "always" readying an attack as soon as they see an enemy. No matter what they are doing or what else is happening in the adventure, the characters are Readying an attack at every waking moment of every single day, all day long. Thus, whenever a combat encounter eventually breaks out, the entire party gets a "free round" of attacks at the very beginning of combat and then they can attack again as their action during the first round of combat. The game is not designed to be played that way.
I have also seen groups similarly declare things like: "My character is "always" searching for traps". Or "my character is "always" stealthy". Or "my character is "always" taking the Dodge action." There is rules support for disallowing all of these things, but it can be a headache to deal with.
If a DM is interested in the rules support for shutting down Readied actions outside of combat, we can begin by looking at the text for the Ready action:
The concept of "your turn" is really a combat-only concept in the 2024 rules. Outside of combat, the game flows differently. Plenty of other actions can be taken outside of combat such as Search or Hide or Help or Influence or Utilize and so on as the text for those actions doesn't mention performing such activities on your turn.
Outside of combat:
Combat:
I understand that disallowing actions such as Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge and Ready outside of combat with the intention of that action "carrying over into combat for free" might be a hard sell for many veteran players, but doing so is more in line with the RAW.
Incorrect.
The DC 15 requirement is how you adjudicate whether or not you have successfully concealed yourself. In this context, this means that you have successfully become both unseen and unheard. Being unseen is a prerequisite for even making this attempt in the first place. When successful, it means that you have successfully concealed yourself and have become "hidden". While hidden, you have all of the benefits of being hidden -- most of which are detailed elsewhere, not within the text for the Hide action (see Unseen Attackers and Targets for what it means to be hidden mechanically in addition to what is explicitly listed within the Hide action). In addition, you also have the Invisible condition (explicitly declared within the text for the Hide action) while hidden.
Contested checks aren't really a thing in the 2024 rules.
Mechanically, there is no point to moving silently if an enemy is watching you do so. You don't gain any benefits for doing this.
it's true that the Stealth skill can be used for activities other than Hiding. Particularly, if you are attempting to perform a quick, discreet activity in a quiet manner that is not ongoing then the DM might call for a simple Stealth check with a set DC if there is some meaningful chance for success and failure. For example, trying to open or close a door that is out of the enemy line of sight in a quiet manner so that the noise of doing so does not alert that enemy -- the DM might call for a Stealth check and might set the DC equal to that enemy's Passive Perception score.
However, if by "moving silently" you mean sneaking around on an ongoing basis without being seen or heard, then you really have to use the Hide action mechanics for that. In that case, the minimum Stealth value is 15 and you must also beat the Passive Perception score of any nearby enemy when you make the attempt. Once you are hidden, that sets the DC that an enemy must meet or exceed with any Passive or Active Perception check that searches for you.
No, the Hide action doesn't actually make you invisible. And no, having the Invisible condition is not the only result of successfully hiding.
Rather than actually making you invisible, the Hide action just says that you have the Invisible Condition while hidden. It's basically just saying that you have the same benefits as being invisible by virtue of the fact that you are currently unseen.
All of this is totally incorrect according to the RAW of the 2024 rules. It is also incorrect with respect to the 2014 rules. In both cases, all fighting happens within initiative according to the rules. Attacks are not resolved outside of combat.
In the 2024 rules, an invisible assassin might think that he is successfully sneaking up on you and then also successfully attacking you from behind (two separate things) in some sort of unstoppable or unavoidable way, but according to the 2024 rules, something might go wrong. The assassin might fumble the sword a bit or make a bit of noise while drawing that sword as part of the attack (not as part of the sneaking, but as part of the attack). He might hesitate just a fraction too long and the enemy might recover exceptionally quickly from being surprised. In 2024, such unforeseen circumstances are up to the dice to determine.
A combatant that is surprised that combat has started IS in combat. They just didn't know that combat was starting when it actually started and so they are surprised by that for a very brief period of time. In 2024, this period of time that this surprised combatant is surprised for actually lasts for far less than one full combat round. There is a mechanic in place in the rules which adjusts for this momentary realization that combat has already begun. This combatant was unaware that combat is starting at the moment that it started. The rules regarding the initiative adjustment are the only mechanical ramification of that happening according to the 2024 RAW. On the rare occasion that the surprised opponent acts first, the abstraction is that all of this is happening at nearly the same time and the surprised opponent was simply faster. This is how it works. Ruling it another way is a homebrew house rule. Which is fine, but that's what it is.
The fact that we're already up to 3 pages of argument over this topic just shows how truly horrible the current RAW method is. I'll stick with the method I posted. My dozen or so players (including 3 other DMs) have found it works well and is a good balance between efficiency, fairness, and realism.
You are of course free to use whatever system you prefer.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
All right, some more of my thoughts on how to run this.
1. The Orc has been described as hiding near the fortress entrance. It seems as though they are acting as a sentry attempting to watch the entrance from concealment. Well before the PC's arrive, the Orc takes the Hide action and rolls a Stealth check. Optionally consider granting the Orc advantage, due to the long amount of time they have to prepare. If the Orc fails to beat a 15, they have failed to hide well enough to avoid detection, even if the PC's don't have a high enough perception (either active or passive). The DM could handle that in a couple of ways, such as giving a hint to the PC's that something seems off, or outright saying that a sentry was spotted.
2. If the Orc succeeds on the basic 15, they are considered Hidden and Invisible until the PC's arrive. If one of the PC's has a passive perception which beats the Orc's Stealth, the Orc is spotted by that PC. If the PC's choose to make an active Perception check when approaching the fortress (and they'd be stupid not to), they spot the orc if their active Perception check beat his Stealth score.
3. If the PC's are moving stealthily, roll an active Perception check for the Orc (as a sentry, he would always be watching). If the PC's don't spot the Orc, but aren't moving stealthily or fail to beat the Orc's Perception check, the Orc uses Cloak to obscure their footsteps. There is no need to roll an additional Stealth check, as Cloak makes the orc actually transparent with silent footsteps. The DM picks their target and rolls an attack with advantage due to Invisible, then they ask the chosen PC if an X hits. If it hits, roll damage, but either way, at that point, roll initiative.
I a throw another alternative that is "technically" still RAW, but more loose in order of operations.
Only have combatants involved in the "surprise" phase to roll initiative. Basically first attacker and first target. Adv/Dis applies as normal. Then after that round is resolved, the other combatants roll initiative enter combat. This basically allows an opening event to happen, which is easier to narrate, and less likely to snow ball due to no sides getting free attacks.
And as a bonus, those with things like an Alert Feat, Holding a Weapon of Warning (but not the rest of the party), or actively watching for ambushes as an out of combat activity, get to also be in that first round of initiative rolls. Letting them reposition, spot targets, retaliate/first strike, before the bulk of the enemy get to act.
Its easy, its punchy, and its very fast to enact to get the excitement of a surprise round without most of the mechanical baggage a full surprise round causes.
I would like you to quote rules to prove any of that. Most especially about the Hide action.
(Because the rules only give the DC 15 for the Hide action, which makes you invisible. I quoted the rule. And the rules say initiative is rolled when combat starts, which must necessarily mean that at the point initiative is rolled, everyone knows there's about to be fighting, or by definition combat hasn't started yet. To be surprised by combat starting in the case of the undetected invisible assassin is to be surprised by the knife already in your back, and only at that point does combat start).
(There's also no difference between being invisible and the invisible condition. The only difference RAW between invisible from the spell Invisibility and the Hide action is the conditions for losing invisibility.)
(Edit: There most definitely are opposed rolls. The Hide action specifically tells you to make note of your stealth roll and compare the detecting characters perception to that roll. That's an opposed roll.)
(Edit 2: There is a point to a move silently roll when observed, because not everyone can observe you. Let's say you're attempting to seduce a guard, and are being quiet to avoid alerting another guard who is on the other side of a wall/curtain/whatever but within earshot. You don't care that the guard you're attempting to seduce can see you, but he can see you, so you can't hide. But you definitely do care that you're moving silently while doing so.)
You can most certainly take attack actions outside combat. Let's say I'm target shooting, maybe even in an archery competition, maybe just out in the woods with a target. It's not combat, pretty definitionally. But that's definitely an attack.
Now let's say I'm clay shooting (and this world has shotguns). Definitely not combat. But can I take a readied action to shoot the pigeon after it's launched? Of course I can. This is exactly the mechanic to describe these activities.
It's patently untrue you can't take these actions outside of combat.
(And on the converse, you could divide the entire day into rounds and just take turns saying what you're doing for every 6s. The problem is this is just tedious, so we abstract it. But combat isn't magically different from any other time, with different physics. The reason we only keep track in actual combat is because initiative and action sequencing generally only matters in actual combat).
The players know that combat has started. The characters do not have to.
Also, many groups will drop into initiative when there's a situation where tactical positioning and order of actions may matter, even if combat has not, as such, occurred. For instance, if the party is moving at speed through a heavily trapped area, initiative might be in order so you can determine who sets off traps, and who gets affected. Or if there's a tense situation with NPCs going on, and people are maneuvering in case the fight does break out. (Is it RAW? Don't know, don't care. It's practical.)
I have no problem with that latter practice. They're doing stuff. (It's still not combat, which matters for some things). But now imagine you've gone to initiative order because of traps, and an enemy springs an ambush while that's going on. The players didn't get any magical knowledge combat was about to happen, they're maneuvering through traps. So the ambush catches them by surprise without any chance to react to the ambushing monsters' attacks before they make them (since they had no idea the enemy was there to take action against), which is much more like my idea of how combat starts than the alternative.
Combat only starts when the characters know combat has started (and enemies, in the case of a player ambush). And the players shouldn't know until then, either. Which is why you only roll initiative after the initial attack (or whatever) of the unseen enemy, so the players don't know combat is about to start.