a question about a nick combo I've been thinking to use

If it helps people here or future visitors, there's a recent thread about using a Bonus Action mid-action: Do you get to know if an enemy died before deciding to smite or not?

I included more related threads in reply #18. For convience, pasted below (one discussion was with VerilyRaze, indeed) 

And I'd like to clarify that my understanding is the same as jl8e and Smite are explaining.

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- Dual wield, Nick and light weapons. - (starting from comment 59)
- Equip or Unequip a weapon - once per attack or once per Attack [Action]? - (starting from comment 120)
- Nick debate SOLVED -  (comment 23)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (starting from comment 41)
- Nick debate SOLVED - (comment 57)
- Nick debate SOLVED -  (comment 72)
- Two-Weapon Fighting v Two-Weapon Fighting Style v Dual Wielding - (starting from comment 14)
- Eldritch Knight / Valor Bard + Nick mastery - (comment 71)

EDIT: fix grammar error.

I say this makes sense, as I’ve done something similar with a scimitar/shortsword combo.

Quote from VerilyRaze>>

You're confused about the distinction between lowercase and uppercase 'action'. Lowercase 'action' refers to the activities you can do. If the Bonus Action lets you do something, it lets you perform an action. That action is bound by all the rules of any other action - including the "One Thing At a Time" rule (which covers lowercase 'actions' not just uppercase 'Actions'). Again, that section of text is not meaningless garbage. It's actual rules text that not only has a purpose but a fairly clear one: to simplify the rules by making actions atomic.

What you're describing are various parts of the Attack Action, not parts of another action. Most of them are, in fact, explicitly described as part of the Attack Action.

Reactions, as I've stated, are explicitly permitted to occur during other activities and are not linked to the action or turn structure at all. Free object interactions likewise, must occur during movement or an action as part of that movement or action. However, Bonus Actions do not have such rules attached to them. They are independent actions and, as such, may not overlap with other actions.

So, yes, actions are atomic. The rules explicitly insist so.

Quote from VerilyRaze>>

What you're describing are various parts of the Attack Action, not parts of another action. Most of them are, in fact, explicitly described as part of the Attack Action.

Reactions, as I've stated, are explicitly permitted to occur during other activities and are not linked to the action or turn structure at all. Free object interactions likewise, must occur during movement or an action as part of that movement or action. However, Bonus Actions do not have such rules attached to them. They are independent actions and, as such, may not overlap with other actions.

So, yes, actions are atomic. The rules explicitly insist so.

 If the rules explicitly state so, you can provide a citation.

And no,  OTAAT is not that. It is, even if I agree with you, a statement that one can't use an action or a bonus action during an action, which is vastly more limited in scope.

An atomic action is indivisible. Nothing can happen during it. No reactions, no bonus actions, no nothing.

The Attack action is clearly not that. We know reactions can happen during it. We know at least some bonus actions can happen during it. The question is whether the latter is only a specific-beats-general exception, or whether it's more generally permitted. And, while it's certainly an arguably correct ruling, OTAAT is silent on the matter of bonus actions. Your argument is that there's a meta-class of actions that includes both Actions and Bonus actions, two things that are otherwise not mechanically interchangeable, and that's what OTAAT is referring to, even though it's in the rules immediately after the definition of Actions, and mentions only Actions, and it mentions neither Bonus actions or any sort of greater grouping in the slightest.

ok thank you! also this is the first time i use a forum so mb i didn't know how to change it or the fact u can change it to begin with lol

Quote from jl8e >>

Your argument is that there's a meta-class of actions that includes both Actions and Bonus actions, two things that are otherwise not mechanically interchangeable, and that's what OTAAT is referring to, even though it's in the rules immediately after the definition of Actions, and mentions only Actions, and it mentions neither Bonus actions or any sort of greater grouping in the slightest.

But the rules do classify both of those things (and more...) as "actions".

Action:
The Action table lists the game’s main actions...

Bonus Action:
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action.

Reaction:
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a Reaction.

OTAAT:
The game uses actions to govern how much you can do at one time. You can take only one action at a time.

It is unclear to me why they couldn't be consistent on capitalization for the "proper Actions" and use the lower case to mean that so-called meta-class, but I don't think it's particularly cut-and-dry. Placed in this order, I don't think you would really be able to argue that Actions can be interrupted by BAs or Reactions without some specific-beats-general timing, and the only reason there's confusion on it at all is the fact that OTAAT is placed before the other types of actions.

Quote from sabin76 >>

It is unclear to me why they couldn't be consistent on capitalization for the "proper Actions" and use the lower case to mean that so-called meta-class, but I don't think it's particularly cut-and-dry. Placed in this order, I don't think you would really be able to argue that Actions can be interrupted by BAs or Reactions without some specific-beats-general timing, and the only reason there's confusion on it at all is the fact that OTAAT is placed before the other types of actions.

But that's not the order that they are placed in the book. At the time OTAAT is defined in the book, Bonus Actions and Reactions have not been defined. Even with the order changed, because of the impreciseness of D&D 5e, it would still not be clear. I don't think it was ever their intention to make Bonus Actions and Reactions a subset of Actions.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

It is unclear to me why they couldn't be consistent on capitalization for the "proper Actions" and use the lower case to mean that so-called meta-class, but I don't think it's particularly cut-and-dry. Placed in this order, I don't think you would really be able to argue that Actions can be interrupted by BAs or Reactions without some specific-beats-general timing, and the only reason there's confusion on it at all is the fact that OTAAT is placed before the other types of actions.

But that's not the order that they are placed in the book. At the time OTAAT is defined in the book, Bonus Actions and Reactions have not been defined. Even with the order changed, because of the impreciseness of D&D 5e, it would still not be clear. I don't think it was ever their intention to make Bonus Actions and Reactions a subset of Actions.

 I'm not saying the two (BAs and Reactions) are a subset of Actions, I'm saying all three (Actions, BAs, and Reactions) are a subset of "actions". The problem is that the rules don't always use the capital Action when talking about those actions you take as your main action during the turn, so you can't rely on capitalization to differentiate between the specific Action and the more general action.

And I know they weren't presented that way in the book. I mentioned as such in what you quoted. But I will push back, because I do not think you could read it any other way if the rules said "Actions are actions, Bonus Actions are actions, and Reactions are actions. Oh, and you can only do one action at a time." Essentially, those arguing OTAAT doesn't prohibit BAs from being used during an Action must assume that they meant to capitalize "action" there and the only real evidence that that may be true is it's placement before defining the other types of actions in the rules.

Quote from sabin76 >>

Oh, and you can only do one action at a time." Essentially, those arguing OTAAT doesn't prohibit BAs from being used during an Action must assume that they meant to capitalize "action" there and the only real evidence that that may be true is it's placement before defining the other types of actions in the rules.

There is the placement, but there is also the pattern of referencing actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions separately. If OTAAT was meant to restrict Bonus Actions, regardless of the order the concepts are defined, Bonus Actions would have been called out.

• Breaking Up Your Move: "You can break up your move, using some of its movement before and after any action, Bonus Action, or Reaction you take on the same turn."
• Making an Attack: "When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack."
• Opportunity Attacks: "Avoiding Opportunity Attacks: You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack when you teleport or when you are moved without using your movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction."
• Loading: "You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

If actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions were subsets of action and not independent concepts, the explicit and repeated call outs would not be necessary. That OTAAT does not call out Bonus Actions when the rules are explicit in other references is pretty telling that it is not intended to apply to Bonus Actions.

I made an analysis of the same thing Smite is explaining above regarding the pattern of referencing actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions separately:

Quote from TarodNet >>

Quote from TinmanJuggernaut >>

[...] Try considering that "Action" and "action" are two different things for a moment. Then look through the book with these eyes and see how often "Action" and "action" are used differently from each other.  [...]

 In the 2024 PHB, "an action" appears 19 times, not counting Chapter 3: Character Classes, Chapter 5: Feats, Chapter 7: Spells, or the Rules Glossary. The relevant instances are listed below (emphasis mine). Reading the book in this context, it's clear to me that the book uses "an action" or directly a named/main Action to distinguish them from a Bonus Action or a Reaction.

(p. 15) Actions. When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game's main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary.

(p. 15) Ready. Prepare to take an action in response to a trigger you define.

(p. 20) Breaking Objects. As an action, you can automatically break or otherwise destroy a fragile, nonmagical object, such as a glass container or a piece of paper. [...]

(p. 23) Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe.

If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.

(p. 23) Doing Nothing on Your Turn . You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can't decide what to do, consider taking the defensive Dodge action or the Ready action to delay acting.

(p. 25) Breaking Up Your Move. You can break up your move, using some of its movement before and after any action, Bonus Action, or Reaction you take on the same turn. For example, if you have a Speed of 30 feet, you could go 10 feet, take an action, and then go 20 feet.

(p. 25) Dropping Prone. On your turn, you can give yourself the Prone condition without using an action or any of your Speed, but you can't do so if your Speed is 0.

(p. 28) Knocking Out a Creature. [...] The condition ends early if the creature regains any Hit Points or if someone takes an action to administer first aid to it, making a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.

(p. 241) Loading. You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

(p. 224) Chain (5 GP)

[...] Bursting the Chain requires a successful DC 20 Strength (Athletics) check as an action.

(p. 226) Manacles (2 GP)

[...] Bursting them requires a successful DC 25 Strength (Athletics) check as an action.

(p. 227) Net (1 GP)

[...] To escape, the target or a creature within 5 feet of it must take an action to make a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check [...]

(p. 228) Rope (1 GP)

[...] Escaping the Rope requires the creature to make a successful DC 15 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check as an action.

If you include the chapters Character Classes, Feats, and the Rules Glossary, it's even clearer that "an action" is used differently from a Bonus Action or a Reaction.

Some examples from Chapter 3: Character Classes:

Agile Strikes. When you expend a use of your Bardic Inspiration as part of an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction, you can make one Unarmed Strike as part of that action, Bonus Action, or Reaction.

Level 17: Quivering Palm. [...] The vibrations are harmless unless you take an action to end them. Alternatively, when you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of the attacks to end the vibrations. [...]

Level 9: Abjure Foes. [...] While Frightened in this way, a target can do only one of the following on its turns: move, take an action, or take a Bonus Action.

Swift Spells. Whenever you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can cast it using a Bonus Action instead.

Daze (Cost: 2d6). The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or on its next turn, it can do only one of the following: move or take an action or a Bonus Action.

One example from Chapter 5: Feats:

Merge with Shadows. [...] The condition ends on you immediately after you take an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction.

And some examples from the Rules Glossary:

Knocking Out a Creature. The creature remains Unconscious until it regains any Hit Points or until someone uses an action to administer first aid to it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.

Magic [Action]. When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated. [...]

Utilize [Action]. [...] When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Utilize action.

Even some spell descriptions explicitly say Bonus Action when it's needed, instead of assuming that "an action" also means a Bonus Action or a Reaction. Here are a few examples::

- Command ("Halt. On its turn, the target doesn’t move and takes no action or Bonus Action.")

- Confusion ("that target can’t take Bonus Actions or Reactions")

- Conjure Woodland Beings ("you can take the Disengage action as a Bonus Action for the spell’s duration")

- Counterspell ("the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted")

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

Oh, and you can only do one action at a time." Essentially, those arguing OTAAT doesn't prohibit BAs from being used during an Action must assume that they meant to capitalize "action" there and the only real evidence that that may be true is it's placement before defining the other types of actions in the rules.

There is the placement, but there is also the pattern of referencing actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions separately. If OTAAT was meant to restrict Bonus Actions, regardless of the order the concepts are defined, Bonus Actions would have been called out.

• Breaking Up Your Move: "You can break up your move, using some of its movement before and after any action, Bonus Action, or Reaction you take on the same turn."
• Making an Attack: "When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack."
• Opportunity Attacks: "Avoiding Opportunity Attacks: You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an Opportunity Attack when you teleport or when you are moved without using your movement, action, Bonus Action, or Reaction."
• Loading: "You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

If actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions were subsets of action and not independent concepts, the explicit and repeated call outs would not be necessary. That OTAAT does not call out Bonus Actions when the rules are explicit in other references is pretty telling that it is not intended to apply to Bonus Actions.

 Your action/Bonus Actions/Reactions are all merely containers for actions. What you can do with them is perform certain actions. Consider "You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action". By your read, this means abilities like Cunning Action or Patient Defense don't do anything because a "Bonus Action is not an action".

Not to mention that the rules explicitly state that Bonus Actions and Reactions are used to perform actions.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

 Your action/Bonus Actions/Reactions are all merely containers for actions. What you can do with them is perform certain actions. Consider "You can avoid provoking an Opportunity Attack by taking the Disengage action". By your read, this means abilities like Cunning Action or Patient Defense don't do anything because a "Bonus Action is not an action".

By my read, Cunning Action allows you to take certain Actions as a Bonus Action. By my read, Patient Defense allows you to take certain Actions (possibly two!) as a Bonus Action. Because of OTAAT, you have to specify an order of resolution for Disengage and Dodge, though I can't think of a scenario where the order matters; there could be rider effects from another feature that causes it to matter.

I don't know how you reached any other conclusion.