Divine Sense vs the Invisibility spell

Quote from RWinnie >>

Again, you are thinking about it backwards: The Hide action only serves to make you Invisible. If I am hiding under a big pile of leaves, and your Divine Sense allows you to know I am under the leaves, I am still Invisible because knowing I'm there doesn't make the leaves disappear. 

 Since you have the Invisible condition while hidden but you stop being hidden immediately after an enemy finds you, you'd likely loose it. But if the big pile of leaves is enought dense foliage to be Heavily Obscured area, you might still not be seen anyways.

Quote from Character77006 >>

Based on the assumption that the Paladin now knows where the invisible target is.   

Can that information be relayed to someone that can cast Faerie Fire?

When that caster does cast the spell, everyone knows where the target is, correct?

If the casters initiative is before the Paladin,  who does that ID  space and casting spell work if the target is moving?  Does that mean the spell probably won't succeed?

 It can relay this information and upon casting Faerie Fire each creature in the Cube is outlined if it fails a Dexterity saving throw.

If the caster's turn is before the Paladin if the information was relayed it would know how to position the Cube in order to include the creature, unless it's how out of Divine Sense range.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Is knowing the location sufficient to have found a hidden target? Maybe. Maybe not. SAnE discusses it regarding Blindsight and Truesight, but no other features. D&D never defines targets senses (usually only visual) or what finding means (even under Finding Hidden Objects). It's reasonable to interpret the rules either way so talk to the DM.

I personally lean towards you know where to look but still need to take a [actions]Search[/actions] and succeed on a Perception check. I would give advantage on the check though.

 I like this approach. It allows you to aim area attacks and weapon attacks (with disadvantage) with precision. 

With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. 

With the Search action, you make a Wisdom Wisdom (Perception) check to detect concealed creature or object.

With Divine Sense you detect Celestials, Fiends, and Undead and know their location.

DM may rule being detected this way means an enemy finds you.

Arguing semantics at this point, but ones that shouldn't be hard to get to the bottom of.
When you are Invisible as a result of taking the Hide action, you lose that Invisible condition "when an enemy finds you." Locating something is finding it, and I'm sorry, but there's not really any room for debate there.
There are still additional complications that could arise from locating something via Divine Sense (etc.), such as the creature being behind Total Cover or being Heavily Obscured - or even being Invisible from an additional source, like the Invisibility spell -  but you most certainly should not have to make a Wisdom (Perception) check in addition to Divine Sense (etc.) in order to "find" a creature that was concealed through use of the Hide action, because you have found (aka located) them.
That does not guarantee you can see them - because of the other possible avenues of sight being obscured - but you know where they are, and they lose the benefit of the Hide action.

Quote from Jaysburn >>

The only thing that specifically says you can escape being noticed is the Stealth skill, and the only active way for a player to choose to make an ability check using the Stealth is via the Hide action.

 This is where we are fundamentally misunderstanding each other. I agree that, if you are making a skill check to avoid detection, then you are likely making a Dexterity (Stealth) check. However, you can choose to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check at any time, for any reason. The only Action that calls for a Dexterity (Stealth) check is the Hide action, but you do not need to spend an Action to make every skill check. The reason you take the Hide action is not to avoid detection, it is to become Invisible, and then, in order to remain Invisible, you must avoid detection. You make the Dexterity (Stealth) check as part of the Hide action to both determine if you successfully become Invisible, and then to determine how effectively you avoid detection assuming you do nothing to give yourself away. The "Action" portion of the Hide action is the "becoming Invisible" part, not the "attempting to remain undetected" part.

So, it is my argument that, if you received the Invisible condition due to being the target of an Invisibility spell,  and you want to remain undetected by the other senses, you would need to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check, but that it would not cost you an action to do so.

Quote from RWinnie >>

Quote from Jaysburn >>

The only thing that specifically says you can escape being noticed is the Stealth skill, and the only active way for a player to choose to make an ability check using the Stealth is via the Hide action.

 This is where we are fundamentally misunderstanding each other. I agree that, if you are making a skill check to avoid detection, then you are likely making a Dexterity (Stealth) check. However, you can choose to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check at any time, for any reason. The only Action that calls for a Dexterity (Stealth) check is the Hide action, but you do not need to spend an Action to make every skill check. The reason you take the Hide action is not to avoid detection, it is to become Invisible, and then, in order to remain Invisible, you must avoid detection. You make the Dexterity (Stealth) check as part of the Hide action to both determine if you successfully become Invisible, and then to determine how effectively you avoid detection assuming you do nothing to give yourself away. The "Action" portion of the Hide action is the "becoming Invisible" part, not the "attempting to remain undetected" part.

So, it is my argument that, if you received the Invisible condition due to being the target of an Invisibility spell,  and you want to remain undetected by the other senses, you would need to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check, but that it would not cost you an action to do so.

 
Once again I mostly agree, but one front on which I am in full disagreement; a player does not get to choose to make an ability check unless it is specifically part of an action they are taking.
Granted, even then, the DM still has to allow a player to take that action in the first place, though there's a much larger degree of player control over taking specific rules actions (Attack, Dodge, Utilize, Influence, Magic, etc.).

As the rules state in the DMG: "You decide when a player makes a d20 Test based on what the character is trying to do. Players shouldn’t just roll ability checks without context; they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to." Honestly, in all TTRPGs, a player should almost never (especially outside combat) tell the GM that they are doing something; at worst they should ask to make specific checks or use specific actions, but really they should just narrate what their character is doing and allow the GM to adjudicate what - if anything - is required.

The only RAW way a player can "actively choose" to make an ability check using Stealth is via the Hide action. They cannot choose to make an ability check using Stealth outside of that.

So, while I agree that it could be possible to make an ability check using Stealth - and thus become able to "escape notice," as per the Stealth skill - through a separate means beyond the Hide action - such as as a result of casting the Invisibility spell - a player cannot choose to do so. They can certainly ask, but it's up the the DM.

Now, all that said, I do personally think it can be a bit unbalanced for a DM to allow an ability check using Stealth to happen so easily. There could certainly be circumstances where it makes sense, but ultimately, casting Invisibility is done using the Magic action, and neither the spell nor the action state anything about becoming concealed or going unnoticed.

The Hide action exists for a reason, and does what it does ("try to conceal yourself" and "escape notice" (through a Stealth check) - in addition to gaining the Invisible condition, of course) for a reason. Overwriting its specific use by allowing other actions and abilities to perform the same function grants those abilities mechanical benefits beyond what they have, essentially giving the player a free action and disrupting the game's established action economy, while also stepping on the toes of features like Cunning Action that give certain players/NPCs the action economy required to attempt a Stealth check to conceal themselves in addition to taking other actions (such as casting spells via the Magic aciton). A very slippery slope.

Quote from Jaysburn >>

Arguing semantics at this point, but ones that shouldn't be hard to get to the bottom of.
When you are Invisible as a result of taking the Hide action, you lose that Invisible condition "when an enemy finds you." Locating something is finding it, and I'm sorry, but there's not really any room for debate there.

Semantics are fully the point when discussing DnD rules. If we were talking about another game, I'd say you could infer one word when using a different one. But the rules of this game are so unbelievably pedantic and frustratingly specific that they usually use terms incredibly deliberately. Thus, if Divine Sense were meant to "find" characters who are Invisible by use of the Hide action, the rules would at least use the word "find" in the description of Divine Sense, and would probably go so far as to say "this feature allows you to find creatures who have made themselves Invisible with the Hide action." As such, we can actually infer that Divine Sense almost certainly is not intended to allow you to "find" creatures who have made themselves Invisible with the Hide action.

It's important to remember that, in most cases, the Hide action is redundant. If you're Heavily Obscured or behind Full Cover, who gives a shit from a practical standpoint if you're Invisible? The intended purpose of the Hide action is largely to give you the benefits of the Invisible condition's third element:

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

It is largely meant to provide the momentary benefit of Invisibility when you leave your hiding space or break cover. If you are arguing that a Paladin's Divine Sense allows them to "find" a character who has rendered themselves Invisible with the Hide action, then they basically have a 60ft aura of protection from Sneak Attacks.

Quote from RWinnie >>

Semantics are fully the point when discussing DnD rules. If we were talking about another game, I'd say you could infer one word when using a different one. But the rules of this game are so unbelievably pedantic and frustratingly specific that they usually use terms incredibly deliberately. Thus, if Divine Sense were meant to "find" characters who are Invisible by use of the Hide action, the rules would at least use the word "find" in the description of Divine Sense, and would probably go so far as to say "this feature allows you to find creatures who have made themselves Invisible with the Hide action." As such, we can actually infer that Divine Sense almost certainly is not intended to allow you to "find" creatures who have made themselves Invisible with the Hide action.

It's important to remember that, in most cases, the Hide action is redundant. If you're Heavily Obscured or behind Full Cover, who gives a shit from a practical standpoint if you're Invisible? The intended purpose of the Hide action is largely to give you the benefits of the Invisible condition's third element:

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

It is largely meant to provide the momentary benefit of Invisibility when you leave your hiding space or break cover. If you are arguing that a Paladin's Divine Sense allows them to "find" a character who has rendered themselves Invisible with the Hide action, then they basically have a 60ft aura of protection from Sneak Attacks.

 
Yes, arguing the semantics of rules language is what these forums exist for, but it shouldn't be the case for simply arguing whether "locating" something means "finding" it when those terms are not specific rules language.

As for you saying that the Hide action is redundant... Absolutely not. As I've stated several times now, while the Hide action does (stupidly) grant you the Invisible condition, the Invisible condition itself does not make your location or presence unknown. Only making an ability check using Stealth can do that, and the Hide is the only way for a player to actively do that (see my previous comment for details, I posted it just a few seconds before your last post, in case it slipped by). Being Invisible itself does not prevent creatures from knowing your location, or that you're even present, nor does being Heavily Obscured or behind Total Cover.

The rules do not need to - and actively avoid - spelling out how every ability or effect interacts with every other ability or effect. They would be infinitely long if they did. Divine Sense (etc.) does not need to spell out how it interacts specifically with being Invisible as a result of the Hide action, because the Hide action already says a creature loses the Invisible condition granted by it if you are found, and Divine Sense locates - aka finds - specific creatures. So, yes, if a creature (of the types detected by Divine Sense) needed the Invisible condition granted to them by the Hide action in order to get Sneak Attack (or another benefit) against a Paladin currently under the effects of Divine Sense... they would, indeed, not be able to get that Sneak Attack. That's a perfectly reasonable benefit of using a class-specific feature that requires resources to use.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. 

With the Search action, you make a Wisdom Wisdom (Perception) check to detect concealed creature or object.

With Divine Sense you detect Celestials, Fiends, and Undead and know their location.

DM may rule being detected this way means an enemy finds you.

This is totally valid as well. Making a sound louder than a whisper is sufficient to end the effect so it is definitely reasonable that precise detection is not required. The actual mechanics of Divine Sense, knowing the location and knowing the size of the creature does not immediately parallel the language for Hide so there is room for either interpretation. If you consider "detecting" the creature to be a mechanic of the ability and not just a fluff summary of the ability, it certainly leans in favor of your take.

I want to point out something very interesting. Since I joined this conversation I was rather confused as I could've sworn the wording was different than it's appeared, and apparently I was right:
The wording for the Hide action within the D&DBeyond tooltip popup and that appears in the character sheet's sidebar on D&DBeyond is different from what appears in the Players Handbook.

Here is how the Hide action appears in tooltip & sidebar:

"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."

And here is how it appears in the Player's Handbook:

"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition while hidden. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

You stop being hidden immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."

I've emboldened the differences. I was sure there was more emphasis on "being hidden" found within the Hide action, but as it wasn't appearing in the tooltips I assumed I was misremembering. 
Food for thought, anyway. 

The Hide action got an errata awhile ago:

In the second paragraph, “you have the Invisible condition” is now “you have the Invisible condition while hidden”. In the third paragraph, “The condition ends on you” is now “You stop being hidden”.

Well, that's good. Helps clear things up a little, though it could certainly use a lot more. Strange the tooltip and character sheets have yet to be updated as well.

Quote from Jaysburn >>

Well, that's good. Helps clear things up a little, though it could certainly use a lot more. 

Yeah, the errata was met with a lot of head scratching.

Quote from RWinnie >>

Making a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check with the Hide action simply gives you the Invisible condition. 

That's not the case at all.  The Hide action represents an attempt to conceal your location visibly and audibly.  The die roll is used to determine the success or failure of such an attempt.  When successful, you become hidden which means that your location becomes unknown due to the inability to see or hear you.  One of the consequences of this is that you have the Invisible condition while hidden.  

Upon skimming this thread, I haven't seen it brought up yet, but some of the other consequences of successfully hiding are buried elsewhere in the rules -- in the Unseen Attackers and Targets sidebar.  

If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Quote from RWinnie >>

 In fact, having an ability like Paladin's Divine Sense doesn't even allow you to "find" an opponent who is Invisible because of the Hide action.  

I disagree.  That portion of the Hide action was written in a deliberately vague and open-ended manner for exactly this reason.  The text simply says that one of the ways in which you stop being hidden immediately is if "an enemy finds you".  One of the ways to do that is with a Search action that results in making a Wisdom (Perception) check, and if you are using that particular method then the text specifies what you should use for the DC for that check.  But there are plenty of other ways in which an enemy can find a hidden creature including Passive Perception, or the enemy simply coming out of hiding, or in this case due to the Divine Sense ability.  That's a pretty straightforward rules-based ruling for a DM to make.

Quote from RWinnie >>

You're looking at it backwards. Taking the Hide doesn't make you concealed while Invisible, taking the Hide action makes you Invisible which renders you concealed. The second bullet point in the description of the Invisible condition is "Concealed," and that literally only applies to being affected by "any affect that requires [you] to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see [you]." Neither taking the Hide action NOR the Invisible condition prevent you from being heard, smelled, touched, tasted, or detected via any other extrasensory perception. The Hide action doesn't make you harder to detect, it requires that you remain undetected in order to remain Invisible. Meanwhile, Invisibility granted by any other source (such as the Invisibility spell) have their own, unique conditions for remaining Invisible.

This does not mean that, should you have Invisibility from a source other than taking the Hide action, that you cannot remain effectively concealed. If you announce to your DM that you intend to attempt to remain undetected while under the effect of the Invisibility spell, they may allow you to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to determine how well you remain undetected via sound, smell, tracks, etc., and use that as the DC for a Wisdom (Perception) check to pinpoint your location. But that's just being sneaky, it's not the same as taking the Hide action.

No, none of this is how hiding works.  

Successfully taking the Hide action DOES make you concealed.  That's the whole point of the action.  To conceal your location.  Once you have successfully concealed your location so that it is unknown to enemies (you have become hidden) then as a consequence you now have the Invisible condition while hidden.  Taking this action doesn't actually make you invisible in the traditional sense of that word.  It simply makes it so that enemies don't know where you are.  The Invisible Condition is simply a bulleted list of benefits that a creature might enjoy.  While hidden, you enjoy those benefits.  Not because you are an actual invisible creature, but because you are a hidden creature.

As a matter of fact, a successful Hide action (but not due to the ensuing Invisible Condition) DOES indeed prevent you from being heard.  (Hence why the text makes a point of saying that if you make noise then you stop being hidden immediately.)  Also, the default assumption is that other creatures are unable to smell, touch, taste, or detect via any other extrasensory perception at range well enough to be able to pinpoint your location.  If one can do this then you might not actually be hidden from such a creature.  Plus, if any creature happens to touch you while you are hidden then that creature may have just "found" you.  Being hidden doesn't prevent this.  The concept of being hidden is that a creature cannot currently locate you with their senses.  If later on they happen to bump into you then that's another story.

If you are Invisible due to the Invisibility spell and you announce that you intend to attempt to remain undetected . . . that's not just being "sneaky", that IS taking the Hide action.  That's actually the whole point of the Hide action -- to conceal your location.  Such an Invisible creature's location is currently known because other creatures can hear it.  By taking the Hide action successfully, that creature can conceal their location by making sure that nearby creatures can no longer hear it.  Again, this aspect of these mechanics is found within the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets and therefore is not repeated within the text for the Hide action itself.

Quote from sabin76 >>

Quote from RWinnie >>

If your Divine Sense indicates that I am hiding under the pile of leaves, you could take a Search action to spot some part of me under the leaves, but only if your Wisdom (Perception) check exceeds the DC set by my Dexterity (Stealth) check, because I could have hidden myself so effectively that you can't see any part of me under the leaves, even by looking really hard. BUT, if you cast Gust of Wind on the leaves and blow them all away, you will also "find" me, and I will no longer be Invisible.

I think this would only work if you used something that could actually provide cover (an obstacle that can make the "target more difficult to harm", PHB Ch1 Combat). Leaves are not that. One of the end conditions for the Hide action is "an enemy finding you". Knowing your location could easily be interpreted to mean "found you", so I think there's an argument to be made that a creature cannot hide from a paladin if it's one of those creature types and within range. If you play hide and seek with someone, then knowing a hider's location is the same as finding them.

 

I agree with this interpretation in general -- knowing the location via Divine Sense is the same as finding that creature.  Therefore, that creature no longer has the Invisible Condition from hiding since they are no longer hidden.

However, we cannot go directly from there to being able to target such a creature with a spell such as Magic Missile.  That creature is still buried under the leaves after all.  We still cannot actually see that creature.  There is such a thing in the rules as "Unseen".  It is not necessary to be hidden or to otherwise have the Invisible Condition to be an Unseen Target.  You can simply use your movement to relocate your position to someplace out of sight without actually taking the Hide action.  This causes you to be Unseen (but not hidden) from your enemy.  Such an enemy is unable to target you with the Magic Missile spell because that spell description explicitly requires the spellcaster to see the target.

Quote from RWinnie >>

It's important to remember that, in most cases, the Hide action is redundant. If you're Heavily Obscured or behind Full Cover, who gives a shit from a practical standpoint if you're Invisible? The intended purpose of the Hide action is largely to give you the benefits of the Invisible condition's third element:

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

It is largely meant to provide the momentary benefit of Invisibility when you leave your hiding space or break cover.

This is a pretty debilitating misunderstanding although a somewhat common one unfortunately.  The "purpose" of the Hide action is NOT to "become Invisible".  It is to become hidden.  You do this by concealing your location.  One of the benefits of doing this is that you have the Invisible Condition while hidden.  Again, for the mechanical benefits of hiding in combat, review the Unseen Attackers and Targets sidebar.

As a quick summary:

1.  if you are located in a Heavily Obscured space that is not behind cover (such as within Darkness), then an enemy can attack you at disadvantage.  But, if you are hidden there, then they don't know where you are because they cannot see or hear you and therefore must "guess the square" and will likely auto-miss.  

2.  If you are located behind Total Cover and then you "pop-out" to three-quarters cover to make a ranged attack then you attack with a normal roll since the enemy can see you emerge into the open before you attack.  But, if you are hidden there, then your location is not given away until "your attack hits or misses" which means that the attack was made with Advantage as an Unseen Attacker.

Far from redundant.

Quote from RWinnie >>

If you are arguing that a Paladin's Divine Sense allows them to "find" a character who has rendered themselves Invisible with the Hide action, then they basically have a 60ft aura of protection from Sneak Attacks.

That's exactly correct against those particular creature types (Undead, etc.) which are detected by Divine Sense.  It's certainly a useful ability against those creature types.

__________

Overall, the rules and mechanics for hiding certainly could have been written far better than they were, but this widespread belief that the whole idea behind the Hide action is to "just turn invisible" is not only incorrect but it's also extremely unfortunate for the community.

Can we all agree the "invisible" condition should really have been called "unseen"?

The PHB makes a point to say that if you are hidden, attacking reveals your position, but as it has been pointed out, being hidden is a sufficient condition to be invisible, not necessary, so a magically invisible creature can be located even if it is still transparent. But how mechanically?

Does a creature which has the invisible condition due to the invisibility spell, but that is not taking the hide action, automatically reveals his position on the grid when they move?

I think if I was hearing steps I'd for sure know someone is "there" but it would be hard to pinpoint exactly where they are. However the rules of the game might simplify things to make the game easier to play.

Let's assume that being invisible by itself does not conceal your location on the grid  automatically because people can hear your clumsy armored steps on the parquet..

So, what happen if you have the greater invisibility spell active on yourself and make an attack and then move away? You are still invisible, but is your enemy able to know where you are after the first attack until you successfully take the hide action to conceal your sounds? Does being invisible gives you advantage to this hide check?

Unseen Attackers and Targets

When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss.

If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Unless a creature makes a Stealth check - done 99% of the time by taking the Hide action - all other creatures know where they are regardless of whether they are Invisible or otherwise unseen (creatures are Blinded, the creature is Heavily Obscured, the creature is behind Total Cover, etc.)
The only way to go "unnoticed" by other creatures is to make an ability check using Stealth, and the only way for a player to choose to do that is with the Hide action.

That is to say, a creature does not need to MOVE to give away its position if it is Invisible or otherwise unseen, but has not succeeded on a Stealth check. Its position is simply known. 

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

Does a creature which has the invisible condition due to the invisibility spell, but that is not taking the hide action, automatically reveals his position on the grid when they move?
I think if I was hearing steps I'd for sure know someone is "there" but it would be hard to pinpoint exactly where they are. However the rules of the game might simplify things to make the game easier to play.

That is the implication, yes. See the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1, specifically "When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss." [emphasis added]

Whereas, if they are hidden, but you hear them, they are no longer hidden. Which often means they need to make additional Stealth checks to move silently and whatnot.

Quote from Jaysburn >>

The only way to go "unnoticed" by other creatures is to make an ability check using Stealth, and the only way for a player to choose to do that is with the Hide action.

 Got it. :)

I find SO incredibly strange that the rules do not give you advantage to stealth rolls when invisible. True, being magically invisible does not make you do less noise, but it is should be much harder to know exactly on which square you are if you are transparent. 

Currently it feels like every character is Daredevil :D. 

I cast greater invisibility, then a goblin enters the room 3 rounds later. I have not taken the hide action, I have done nothing actually. RAW, does the goblin know I am sitting over the barrel in the corner? Am I breathing that hard?

Quote from Jayce_Danathar >>

I cast invisibility, then a goblin enters the room 3 rounds later. I have not taken the hide action, I have done nothing actually. RAW, does the goblin know I am sitting over the barrel in the corner? Am I breathing that hard?

No, you are unseen and unheard, barring special senses and whatnot. (And could, presumably, roll Stealth to move quietly to stay unheard.)